DVD5 - Cannot play FLAC files.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pcstockton:
...

... I still only want to add one source and HDX is not an option.

...QUOTE]

Dlaczego nie? [Why not?].

George,

That question has a long answer. See the other HDX threads... DAC threads etc...

Basically,
- $9000
- Not customizable/Upgradeable
- 400GB limit (I have 2TB of music on Hard drives) 24/96 files are huge.
- Doesn't rip to FLAC... WAV is redundant
- ALL of my music is now ripped to FLAC and backed up on DVD's.
- Some of the backups are on DVD only.
- I already have a PC in my hifi room. and a Mac upstairs... and another tower in the office. I think im covered there.
- I have done years of research on how to rip/play/burn properly and think my sethod is sound. (not that there arent other ways)
- $9000????? Really? If it was $3000, i would still scoff.
- The only thing i want or need from the HDX is the DAC.
-
just to naim very few.

So...

In the budget for the next 6 months are a NAPSC and a Hicap, and one source.

Either one of the following:
- External DAC (that bests my Beresford)
- DVD5 (if it plays FLACS)

The CD5 plays red book cds or copies there of.

You will need software to put the flac files to cd in red book standard.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
what formats will the DVD5 play?

From the Naim website: The DVD5 plays: DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, DVD+/-R, DVD+/-RW, CD and CD-R

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
I really want a Naim DAC, to get the most of my 24/96 rips.
I also would love a Naim CDP, for all of my CDs.
But given the above, I still only want to add one source and HDX is not an option.

I really don't think there is (yet) a one-box solution to your needs, not from Naim, not from anyone. I've been reading your ripping threads with great interest and I appreciate how thorough you've been in your research. I completely agree with you in that there are many of us wanting to move to high-definition 24/96 for our music but are frustrated with the poor vision and support of the industry.

Aside from the actual ripping options (that you've researched so thoroughly), if one actually wants to listen to music at 24/96 it seems there are three options:

1) Use a Mac and a professional Firewire D-A such as Lavry, Benchmark or Metric Halo
2) Burn all your music to DVD-A and buy a DVD5 or better
3) Build a system around a SuperNait, ie Mac digital out > SN, or DVD-P with digital out > SN

The only point I'd disagree with is when you say "WAV is redundant". That may be true for you but it certainly isn't true for the worldwide professional recording and broadcast industry who use WAV as a universal and interchangeable format for audio every day of the week. There's no way these folks will be switching their multi-track Pro-Tools sessions to record raw FLAC/ALC files or any other compressed format, even if it was possible which it currently isn't. WAV is already an industry-standard and is here to stay as a format, and given the relatively small storage gains (ie +/-30%) that lossless compression affords, and the tumbling price of had-disc space I can see no mid to long-term advantage in compressing music at all. Practically all music gets mixed and mastered to WAV anyway - so WAV it will stay at in my house!

PC

Something for you to keep in the back of your mind. I was ready to purchase a Sneaky DS (to dip my toes into the water) however that has now changed. I was at a Linn demo last night (presided over by none other than Mr. I.T. himself) and he stated that a Majik DS will be following the other DS's shortly. The Sneaky appears to be meant for additional rooms (since it has an incorporated amplifier) while the Majik DS will be akin to the Klimax and Akurate. Pricing was guessed at somewhere in the $3's which makes sense when considering what the Sneaky and Akkurate price out at.

This might be an "affordable" option for your FLACS - and WAV and MP3 and 24/96 and anything else which might come down the pike (as it is software upgradeable).

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by James Lehmann:
WAV is already an industry-standard and is here to stay as a format, and given the relatively small storage gains (ie +/-30%) that lossless compression affords, and the tumbling price of had-disc space I can see no mid to long-term advantage in compressing music at all.

Agree the storage space itself is not a huge issue but why waste space if you don't have to? BTW I believe FLAC typically gives 50% compression (lossless of course).

The big minus is that WAV has no support for tags. That is the one downfall of the format. FLAC has it and is lossless and DRM free so it seems to be a natural format for non-pro use (ie. all of us here). Recording in WAV is absolutely fine but distribution via FLAC seems more sensible to me.

In any event once you have a WAV file you can convert to any other format required, just takes some additional time. No big deal really. But the tags are sure nice to have in the file. Rather than some closed proprietary format -- something I assume the HDX does.

Garyi,
Yes I am aware of that. I make discs for people all the time. I personally use Foobar to convert back to WAV.


James,
Yes, I know what kind of media the DVD5 will play. I was asking what kind of "formats" it will play.
Most specifically, can it play FLAC from my DVD-Rs?
Thanks for the thoughts,
There are many more ways to play 24/96 now, and I do it now with love and affection!! I use
the M-Audio Transit (USB to Toslink convertor) to a Beresford DAC.

Regarding WAV, I disagree. While it may be used internally in many industries, that has no bearing
on my choice of codec. We are talking about listening to our own files. BY FAR, the most
widely used in the "listening to music" world is FLAC, by far. Period.
And yes it is closer to 50% smaller, depending on the dynamics of the content.
And yes the production industrues are beginning to use it.

And you see no storage issues??? Just wait until someone gives you some 24/96 files that are usually
around 1 GB per disc. $9000 HDX that only hold 400 albums???

And lastly, I am not looking for a "one box solution", the exact oppposite in fact. Along the same lines
as why I want seperate, PSU, Pre, and Power, in my kit.

I am looking to add "one box" to what I already have... 3 Computers, Hard Drives galore, HDTV....



Glevethan,
Thanks for the head up. I will look into this. Basically my first criteria is that is has USB input and
it is preferrably "driver-less". As of now i am leaning towards to Benchmark USB DAC with an eye
to get Mods from Steve at Empirical Audio, at funds permit.



Peter,
You are correct in every way.... CHEERS!!!
except I DO think storage issues are still present. I have THREE
750 GB drives.... all almost full at this point. Plus I have over 1TB (1000GB) of files backed up
to DVD-Rs.... Yes that is over 250 DVDs...

And there is no sign of slowing down!!!

For example, I just bought the 180 CD Mozart box set..... CANT WAIT to hear it all!!!
But that, in WAV, would fill up 135 GBs!!!

Although storage is coming down in price, we as using more space, at an equal rate.

2TB drives are still over $400 for a quality one.

Additionally, HDs like to die. So it is prudent to assume that half of your drive space will be
used for backing up in a RAID-like scenario.

I can get 750GB Seagate (With unheard of 5 year warranty!!!!!) for about $200 on sale.

If I got 4, i could have 1.5TB of Music for listening, with all of it backed up.

that is $800, and not "cheap" in my mind.

Keep in mind that 1.5TB does not even store half of my music.



SOOOOO, since ALL of my FLACs are at least on DVD, a DVD-5 would solve my problems.
I would even stop using the PC, I am fine with loading discs.

Plus i would be a wonderful addition to my HT kit.

I emailed NaimUSA.

I got a one word answer to the above question of, "does the DVD5 play FLAC files"

Answer:
NO

...but you got replies to your other e-mails, so it's a toss-up.

PC Just some thoughts from here!

<- Not customizable/Upgradeable

<< What sort of things would you want to customize? The unit is definitely upgradeable ... >>

- 400GB limit (I have 2TB of music on Hard drives) 24/96 files are huge.

<< Great - Phil who runs naimnet tech support has *TEN* terrabytes of storage in his server at home which is a combination of full CD bitrate music, compressed music, movies and documents and the hdx is happy to trawl all of it for playable audio. There's 400Gb *IN THE BOX* and we have space in there for two drives - however much space we put in there there'll always be some people who it just isn't enough storage space for. As hard discs grown in capacity and prove themselves to be reliable enough we can expand the servers internal storage - until then we can use Network Storage (shares) to store additional data. >>

- Doesn't rip to FLAC... WAV is redundant

<< Everyone has their opinions - we play FLAC anyway so we can handle your files and we rip to WAV as that is the data format of the source audio ... >>

- ALL of my music is now ripped to FLAC and backed up on DVD's.

<< Great - we can play your FLAC files ... off your network. >>

- Some of the backups are on DVD only.

<< OK - they can be copied to a network drive to be accessed and played instantly instead of him having to thumb through them - hard disc space is cheap nowadays. >>

- I already have a PC in my hifi room. and a Mac upstairs... and another tower in the office. I think im covered there.

<< That's good - all of those machines can run a web browser and control our hdx or servers ... ))

- I have done years of research on how to rip/play/burn properly and think my sethod is sound. (not that there arent other ways)

We have white papers that are available for reading which go into how and why our ripping is better these will be posted shortly >>


- The only thing i want or need from the HDX is the DAC.

<< That's like saying all you want of a Porsche is the engine ... the HDX is the sum of all its parts - no one part "makes" the HDX what it is, you can take a Porsche flat six and bolt it into a Mondeo but all you do is create yourself a lot of work and end up with a mongrel that doesn't do what you intended. Similarly you could say all you want is the DAC from a HDX but there's more to the sound of an HDX than just "the DAC". >>

just a few Friday thoughts
best
Paul

Paul, and Dave as well,

I really appreciate you thoughts. Naim is a truly unique and wonderful company. Regardless of any short comings in my kit, I can demand that my peers demo your gear before any other.

I dont think you want me to sit here and list all of the reasons I dont want an HDX. But I will address your questions/comments.

What do I want to customize?
Well, firstly and most simply, the player. I LOVE Foobar, you can do anything with it. Infinitely flexible. But if something else comes along that I prefer, I want to be able to use it. Also, writing code for my Foobar is fun. I realize this is beyond most user's desires and abilities.

Then perhaps i want things tagged differently, ripped to a different codec etc, etc, etc...

I would have to STRONGLY disagree on your ripping method, and how it is the ONE AND ONLY best possible method. You know this isn't true in any fashion. There are many ways to do it, and I am sure your way is fine. But it being the ONLY way??? Come on. I can prove to you how correctly using EAC makes a PERFECT bit-for-bit rip.

Can your method/HDX rip a CD with Pre-emphasis, "flag it" correctly, and then burn them accordingly?

Also, can I use it to encode to a V0 mp3? Which I do often for the little lady and her Ipod.

Can it detect pre-track gaps, create a log file, and a cue file? These are huge if you would like to be able to make a 100% exact copy upon burning. For example, when I burn a CD to listen in my car, or lose/damage the original disc.

Does it support true gapless playback?

Can I use any possible tagging protocol I want?

How exactly would I upgrade the HDX when new codecs come around?

Will it play DVDs? Will it stream multichannel audio? Can I play a movie on it?

Can I use it to go online?

Can it convert my WAVs to MP3 or other codec?
If the answer to any of the above are no, then I must keep the PC in the mix.

Regarding my DVD back-ups… If I had enough storage to keep everything on Hard Drives, as you suggest I should do, I wouldn’t have them in the first place.
“Storage is cheap” is not really true. While I agree prices have come way down on a per GB level, big drives are still expensive and die occasionally. I will always need to be able to throw a DVD on the drive and listen from there.


Lastly, concerning the Porsche analogy, what exactly am I utilizing in the HDX, if I am doing the following:

- I use all of my own storage, as you suggest.
- I use my PC for burning, does the HDX burn?
- I use my PC for ripping, for the above reasons, FLAC, MP3 Pre Emph etc..

I am curious what the HDX would exactly been doing at that point. I only imagine it would be “playing” the files, and it will do the D-A conversion.

Hence my comment about just wanting the DAC inside.

I was told, by Adam, that the Naim CDP DACs were specifically made for a CD transport, and would not be appropriate for PC playback. I assumed that this DAC is different and made specifically for PC/HD based audio files. Hence my wanting it.


I already have everything I need besides a good DAC. And I am not asking that Naim manufacture one. Although I would buy it if available.


There is already PC involved in my kit, and it will stay there for 1000 reasons besides ripping/burning/playing. The HDX cannot replace it. An HDX could be added to the mix, and I would seriously consider it, but for $9000??? Just to be able to use its internal DAC, when I can do everything else needed?

If it was also a full true PC with all of its capabilities, it would be a little better.

If I didn’t have a PC that can do 95% of what the HDX does, it would be considered.

If I had more money than God, I would buy in a heartbeat.


Lastly, I just bought a CDX, and I cant wait to hear it!!! I know this will blow away any PC/DAC source I can afford. And I plan to use it often. But the PC audio will always be a part of the system, and the HDX just simply doesn’t address all my needs. If it could do everything my PC does and more, then it would be a no-brainer and I would start selling plasma or something.

Although it will probably be sufficient for many out there.

quote:

That's like saying all you want of a Porsche is the engine ... the HDX is the sum of all its parts - no one part "makes" the HDX what it is, you can take a Porsche flat six and bolt it into a Mondeo but all you do is create yourself a lot of work and end up with a mongrel that doesn't do what you intended. Similarly you could say all you want is the DAC from a HDX but there's more to the sound of an HDX than just "the DAC

Hi Paul,

I understand that, in terms of a total package.

But there seems to be considerable demand for stand-alone DACs. It seems odd not to want some of that action, given that Naim's experience of providing top quality environments to maximise these crucial stages.

A separate DAC, just like the Snait integrated amp, surely represents a big opportunity to attract a wider customer base. With every possibility that they will become aware of other Naim products as a result.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
there seems to be considerable demand for stand-alone DACs.

I agree. Actually I'd be most surprised if this isn't already in the works, whatever the official line.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:
A separate DAC, just like the Snait integrated amp, surely represents a big opportunity to attract a wider customer base.

And even if it doesn't, I reckon Naim could sell a bucket-load of sleek Naim DAC's to existing customers who aren't remotely interested in trading in their separates for a SuperNait.

I'd like to see such a unit include a Firewire connection for direct interfacing with Macs and feature AES-EBU digital I/O on XLR, as well as S/P-DIF and Optical. Future-proofing the unit could mean allowing a 32-bit depth and up to 192k sample rate. Furthermore it should include Wordclock I/O on 75 Ohm BNC connectors which will enable a variety of proper clocking options when people finally realise consumer digital systems need to start implementing the pro-audio world to work optimally (see my other posts for more on this).

To be quite honest, I am not going to lose sleep over Naim missing out on the external DAC market.
And I dont have a problem using a non-Naim one.

As I have stated before, Naim doesn't make a turn table and that is not a problem for anyone it seems.

But they DO fully support the LP12/TT market with various products, Superline, tone arms etc...

That is all i would like from them, or moreover the people in this forum. Just some suggestions on where to go, and what works well with Naim.


The SNAIT does not address the issue of getting the music out of a PC correctly clocked (word-clock, super-clock etc)and converted to SPDIF, or I2S etc...

And the HDX does not address many fundamental needs for an external DAC.

I would simply like to be able to use a DAC that Naim would endorse, similar to the LP12.

Afterall, what is the digi input on the SNAIT for anyway, if not for PC audio? If it is to be used only for a non-Naim CD transort without an internal DAC, doesn't that violate the Naim credo on keeping the DAc and transport in the same box?

I FULLY understand why Naim does not have a standalone DAC, as they cannot control the source that feeds it. And a PC is extremely frowned upon when used as a source by Naims reps. But how is this different from the SNAIT's digi input?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
I FULLY understand why Naim does not have a standalone DAC, as they cannot control the source that feeds it.

I don't sign up to this logic. They just put a Minijack on the front of the Nait5i for crying out loud and they don't seem unduly worried as to what sort of horror sources folks might be feeding into that!

I agree with you in that there are plenty of other nice options. My PowerBook/Metric Halo set-up will feed my Nait5i very nicely through the analog connectors and sound great, but if there was a comparable Naim DAC with a 5-pin DIN output I'd be seriously interested for all sorts of reasons - sonics, aesthetics, synergy, brand loyalty etc etc. And so, it seems, would quite a number of others here.

James,

If Naim made one I would be first in line.
I am just not going to expect one.

It seems they want the DAC in an integrated box of some sort, i.e. SNAIT, N-Vi, CDP, HDX etc.

If they had one on the horizon, I would be surprised if they didnt tell all of us to hold our horses, one is on the way.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
I would simply like to be able to use a DAC that Naim would endorse, similar to the LP12.

The days of Naim endorsing a Sondek has been ended a lot time ago.

People/end users are the ones doing all the talking.

PC

Naim is a company with a wonderful but carefully considered product range.

Their core customer base is interested in uncompromised high quality music reproduction, not satisfying computer or technology geeks. They will not rush products to the market just to fill their product range.

In short, go buy someone elses product before you shoot your load!

J

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
I would simply like to be able to use a DAC that Naim would endorse, similar to the LP12.

The days of Naim endorsing a Sondek has been ended a lot time ago.

People/end users are the ones doing all the talking.

really??? Direct quote from Naim website,

The Armageddon is a turntable power supply for the Linn Sondek LP12. It is built around a large 430VA toroidal transformer......

hmmm seems like an endorsement to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
PC

Naim is a company with a wonderful but carefully considered product range.

Their core customer base is interested in uncompromised high quality music reproduction, not satisfying computer or technology geeks. They will not rush products to the market just to fill their product range.

In short, go buy someone elses product before you shoot your load!

J

Julian, Please read my posts, I am neither asking for Naim to produce a DAC, nor expect them to. And I certainly wouldn't expect them "rush" anything into production.

I am simply trying to find a nice DAC to use with my KIT, why do you have such a problem with this? Name calling (geek) does not help.

And Naim introducing the HDX and Naimnet, seem to suggest the exact opposite of your sentiments.

If I am going to use a DAC in my Naim kit, why do you, and others, have such a problem with it?

And where else would be better to discuss it than here?

I suggest people who dont care or actually get upset about these discussions, need not apply.

For example, have you seen me post in the "Superline Loading" thread? No. Because I dont have a TT and dont have anything to offer to the general discussion.

What alot of people are saying in these threads would be analogous to me going into a Superline/LP12 thread and saying, "just get a CD player and forget about all of that malarky."

Not helpful and counter-productive.

quote:

The Armageddon is a turntable power supply for the Linn Sondek LP12. It is built around a large 430VA toroidal transformer......
hmmm seems like an endorsement to me.

It's a leftover habit from the past.

They've been making it so R&D cost has been amotised nicely and since there are still plenty of LP12/Naim users there, it makes sense they still offer it.

Other turntable producers now are marketing an ARO with their deck as well. ( Michelle, TW Acoustics, Avid etc... )

I still think that the arm works the best with the Sondek, but that's irrelevant.

quote:

Their core customer base is interested in uncompromised high quality music reproduction, not satisfying computer or technology geeks.

Julian,

You are seeing Superline settings before the eyes.

There would be no SuperNait, if the above was true. It's not much of a leap from there, just lose the free amp.

Steve

Steve

The SNait might be the exception.

PC

The thing is I AM INTERESTED and those on this forum that know me, know my intentions in that area! You miss my point. Get something else until Naim bring out their product at a price you are willing to pay.

Naimnet has been talked about here for ages and (to my knowledge) is still not available. I do not call that being rushed to market. As regards to HDX, Naim are hardly first to market are they?

J

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:

Their core customer base is interested in uncompromised high quality music reproduction, not satisfying computer or technology geeks.

Julian, just for fun I read through the Superline loading thread you started.

If that thread is not the penultimate definition of "technology geek-dom" i dont know what is.

quote:

If that thread is not the penultimate definition of "technology geek-dom" i dont know what is.

And all yours are the ultimate?