booommmm bboooommm booommmm....

Mana Sound Bases.

More control from your front ends down the chain. Start with a Flatcap 2 or a Hi-cap on your CD5. Is the problem as bad with the P25? If so, amps with more grip required, or speakers requiring less grip than the ones you currently have.

Regards,

Steve.

Silklee

Don't think soundbases are going to solve the problem. I have a pair of ES14s lying around and have experimented with them over the years with Naim amplification -- from a NAP 110 to NAP 135s via all usual permutations.

Realised that anything less than a NAP180 has difficulty in controlling the ES14 cones, to the point that they start to boom badly (worse so in smaller rooms). An ES14 driven by a NAP250 booms *significantly* less than one driven by a NAP110 in the same room.

Apart from using the foam 'port tuners' that come with the speakers and moving them away from side walls -- I cannot see any other temporary solution.

I think things will improve as you move up the power amp food chain.

Afzal.

The stuff that you tried does not really cut down bass boom. In fact it's more taming the highs.

Option 1:
First identify the frequency that is causing the boom. Try commercial bass traps that are designed to cut down that frequency. It should cut down but they are not cheap solution though. One pair of of those bass traps should cost about S$1k. Some of commercially bass traps available in Singapore are BassBusters, RPG Modex Series(they have stuff that attacks specific frequency), Room Tunes, ASC.

Option 2:
As mentioned above, get a 250. But that would trigger other upgrades as well including a hicap and a better preamp. It may also not totally solve the problem. This option should be more effective than changing source although source does help a little as well.

Option 3:
Move to a bigger room.

Option 4:
Last choice.....change speakers which is kinda sad as the Epos are good with the Naims.

Good luck.

Leeto is right, the excellent 14s do have a tendency to one note boomy bass and need top amps to get the best from them. They are great when you do though. I'd be inclined to put them in the loft and use something else until the day comes when you have something like a 72/hi/250.

"All systems are perfectly designed to get the results they get."

This is something that Mana SoundBases handle really well, IMHO. Definitely worth a try. I know someone with ES14s driven by Quad 33/303, with the ES14s on Kan(-alike) stands, close to the walls with the bungs in. It works.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

quote:

---

Originally posted by silklee:

So i am now inclined to think maybe i should get another pair of speakers, something smaller. Maybe SF concertino, Dynaudio or something.

But before that, is there anything else i should try?

---

My system also lives in a small (12' x 8') room. I've had boom problems too and I've found a number of things that have helped:

1) Going active. Moving from 140 to IXO/2x140 made a massive difference.
2) Mana under the speakers. Significantly improved the situation, although not as dramatic as going active.
3) Changing speakers. Replacing my Credos with little Triangle Titus XS's was a big improvement although I don't regard the Triangles as being better than the Credos, just better suited to the room.

I'm back with Credos again at the moment, passively driven by a single 140 and with no Mana underneath them and I don't think I'm going to cope with it like that for very long.

Regards
Steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Toy:
Mana Sound Bases.

More control from your front ends down the chain. Start with a Flatcap 2 or a Hi-cap on your CD5. Is the problem as bad with the P25? If so, amps with more grip required, or speakers requiring less grip than the ones you currently have.

Regards,

Steve.

---

Hi Chaps,

The Redoubtable Mr. Toy is correct I feel , But I would like you to consider an another option, Townshend Siemic Sinks, great results can be had from these clean looking excellent pieces of lsolation equipment, and you can procure them on 28 S.O.R. worth I try I feel.

Kind Regards David

Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul

so far, these are the things i tried....

(1) stuff socks inside the bass port of the ES14.

(2) using the cardas ratio of speaker placement. basically the speakers are smacked right in the middle of the room.

(3) various speaker placement.

(4) Using those thiner mattresses and placing it round the corner of the room behind the speaker. sort of a cheap type of bass trap.

(5) throwing a rug in space between myself and the speakers.

None seems to help.

And i think this piece of information in important. when i stamp my leg on the floor, there is an echo and seems like the floor is shaking and there is a boom sound.

Sigh... needless to say, I havent been listening to much music recently. I havent even tried my recently purchased Norah Jones LP.

I think my best option will be shift the whole thing out to the living room. but that will be my last resort.

The bass traps are just too costly. And I should be staying here for no longer than 1 year or so, so anything that is going to cost me lots of $$ will be a no no.

Probably i will just have to bear with it and on the music real soft.

Did you try loading the port with straws? run a search on ES 14's, there's some rather comprehensive info. Haven't tried it (no need), but all of it is cheap. Epos also has fourm although there's not a lot on it.

Try this, go to your local builders merchant, buy a couple of concrete slabs, stand your speakers on them, see how it changes the sound.

This week I added a couple of 450x450mm concrete slabs beneath my Linn Kabers. This added a HUGE level of control to my system. Hardly the most aesthetic of solutions, but it was dirt cheap. Now I'm off to get some spray paint so that I can hopefully blend them in a little better with the rest of my black system

having had to deal with similar problems.

My gut reaction is that you need to try a sealed box speaker, (SBL's - Allaes - Linn Saras etc:). That will help.

My dealer's experience is that 'busy' rooms sound best (i.e. plenty of stuff in them to absorb and diffract sound). A new, good quality sofa made a heck of difference for me.

A good system support will help.

These things take time (unless you're very lucky). It's taken me several years to find a speaker position in my house that I'm entirely happy with.

Is it a newish building? Old places seem to produce a much better sound in my experience. Solid walls/high ceilings?

Just keep experimenting with speaker positions and don't rule out really whacky options.

BUT..... get rid of those ported speakers, to give yourself a fighting chance.

Good luck.

make them sealed - a bit controversial but it works, i removed the plastic tubes and put in 2 pieces of wood about 5 x 4 inches with a screw straight through the middle, i have mine in my second system in a basement which has bare brick walls and a concrete floor, and a 6ft high ceiling - i couldnt listen to them at all before i did this but it certainly does the trick - all reversable and costs about 10 pence to do so its certainly worth a go, rugs on the wall help too. it also means that you can put them a bit closer to the wall which is a bonus when you have them in a small room.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Shedlock:
Did you try loading the port with straws? run a search on ES 14's, there's some rather comprehensive info. Haven't tried it (no need), but all of it is cheap. Epos also has fourm although there's not a lot on it.

---

I have tried this myself with ES14s.

Using thicker straws will give you a sound closest to that with the standard unblocked ports.

The thinner the straws you use, the more the bass will be restrained.

Ultimately no tweaks worked for me, things were either too wild, or too thin. This was with a 140, though.

cheers, Martin

I have ES14's with Lp12/Cd5/32.5/hicap/250 in an L shaped room with concrete floor & brick walls. They still boom, even with the 250. I find the best compromise is to partially stuff the ports with foam, but they're still only good for music with not much bass content.

Much as I like them, they're gonna have to go. Something non-ported, but I don't know what.

The Dynaudio 42's sound interesting, haven't heard of them before. Can you tell us a bit more about them Max. Are they floorstanders? How much?

[This message was edited by bazz on SATURDAY 14 December 2002 at 03:35.]

With the help of a friend, we have identified that a big cupboard in my room might be acting as an unwitting subwoofer to disasterous effects. As such, i will move it out of the room and hear the difference it makes. hopefully that will solve the problem....

fingers crossed....

if that doesnt work, i really dont know what will.... without costing me a bomb that is.

Epos designed the speaker for use away from walls by at least 15 inches and with poweramps like the 250.

They boom badly when placed close to a wall, but in the natural environment, i.e. in open space on the end of a minimum CdX/72/hicap/250 system they can sound excellent.

The ES12 and ES11 are more suited to a 92/90 combo

Hi,
It took some finding. But here (at last) a really useful website on room acoustics and more:

http://www.mhsoft.nl/Helmholtzabsorber.asp


Nime

[This message was edited by Nime on SUNDAY 15 December 2002 at 11:09.]

Silklee.
The Epos14 were designed using a 72/hi-cap/250. I doubt you will ever get them sounding good with a nap90. Nothing wrong with your amp, it's the spekers that need more control. I have owned a pair b4 and drove them with a big valveamp, which was ok. Trying them with a nait 3r/flatcap did not work at all.
I think you should try some new speakers. Your sistem is a nice one. There are many options.Go out and listen and remember that you don't have to spend a fortune on your spekers.
Personally I would also consider a flat or a hi cap for the preamp.

good luck, Bjorne

[This message was edited by bjorne on SUNDAY 15 December 2002 at 18:33.]

And so, I have removed the cupboard from my room. And, it still booms. However, it is not as bad as previous. It is now more listenable. However, the boom seems to have slowed down the music and the highs are rather muffled. Rock music just don’t seem to rock anymore.

The funny part about all this is that the ES14 with the 90 never seemed to boom in my previous room. In fact, I thought it sounded a little bit bright then. My previous room’s size was about 3m by 5m+ . I much prefer the presentation in my previous room.

I would probably have to go thru trying all the stuff that I tried before, ie socks, speaker positioning, rug etc. Somehow I get the feeling that it aint going to work.

Use straws instead of socks. Socks makes the bass dissapear by a whole lot.

Tighten the nuts on front of the speakers with Allen key. But becareful not to overtighten it else it would damage the thread.

Hi silk, Sorry i cannot help you much cause i think you need a better amp to drive them.
But if you want to sell them, i will be interested to buy them. Sent me a mail at
eig@pacific.net.sg. Cheers

Well no one appears to have responded so my earlier suggestion, so I'll try again.

Go buy yourself a couple of small paving slabs and put them under your stands.
I recently added a pair of 450x450mm concrete slabs (£1.44 from B&Q each) and it has made a HUGE difference to bass control on my Linn Kabers.
No, I know they're not the most aesthetic of solutions, but so what, total cost is less than £3, and you can always put them in the garden if you don't like them.

I never did give up.
Anyway I have tried repositioning my setup on the long side of the room. No prizes for guessing, it still booms. The last thing I will probably try is to stuff straws into the bass port.

Under the influence and encouragement of friends around me, I am now tempted to get the 202/200/Allae. If the ES14 booms in my room, do I stand a chance with the Allae? I am not too sure whether my local dealer allows a home trial.

Will a 90 work well with the Allae?

Mr_Sukebe,
Kind of hard to find concrete slabs and even if they do work, I don’t think I will be allow to place 2 concrete slabs in my room.

[This message was edited by silklee on FRIDAY 20 December 2002 at 01:19.]

Yeah, If they boom, they'll still boom no matter where you put them. I put mine right in the middle of the room and it made no difference at all, they still boomed like demons.

I tried Max's suggestion yesterday and listened to a pair of Dynaudio Audience 42's. What amazing little speakers, and cheap too. I bought them on the spot & yep, they do the trick all right. In my pig of a room they still need the ports plugged to produce the right balance, but they come with foam plugs and very importantly, the plugs don't kill them as they do the ES14's.

At last, no more boooommm booooommm booooommm!
I've always liked good little speakers for their lack of boxiness and these are beauties, smooth and refined but with excellent detail and punch,
especially good with voices. They seem to work well with the 250 too. I've just got to get used to the size of them now.

Thanks Max!

Silklee,

Is it an older building with high ceilings and a wooden floor (no carpet? rugs suggest this), maybe even blinds and a minimalistic look?
all don't help your issue.

If the height is anywhere near the 3-4 meters of the other wall lengths, then you are sat in a Cube... which is the worst for standing waves... You will find that each room mode for l, w, h are all similar and you have a large resonator chamber waiting to be excited. Effectively the room is the problem and the speakers being reflex ported do not help either.

The frequencies you are having a problem with will be the half wave length of the room. I estimate 40-50 Hz based on 4m and 3m figures mentioned... You may find this is actually a similar frequency to the tuned frequency of the the speaker reflex system. The speakers are exciting the room... classic case of excited resonance.

Try the helmholtz link and tune them for this ball park... Also deadening the end away from the speakers with a heavy drape / curtain (if possible) would help reduce the standing waves by reducing the reflexed wave.

The straws thing will add damping to the Helmholtz resonator that is your speaker box and port. and help the exciting force...

All the things you have tried so far as someone stated already are for Higher frequency issues...

Add as much major damping to your room as possible:

big heavy soft sofa
big bushy plants
cloth wall hangings maybe a distance out and with foam behind..
book shelves filled with books on rear wall if no window..
thick rug on floor
curtains to the floor

John
A NVH (noise, vibration & harshness) engineer

ps or buy ibl's. ;-)