Knife crime - what's happening in the UK?
Posted by: Chillkram on 04 July 2008
I'm listening to the news and there has been yet another knife murder in London. It now seems as though there is a stabbing reported on the news every day. Is it the case that knife crime is actually worse than it used to be or just a perception brought about by excessive reporting on the media.
I have to say that it feels as though the difference these days is that more people carry knives and significantly more people are prepared to use them. It seems as though the taking of a life is now of much less significance than it used to be. Does this mean we are now more populated with psychopaths than previously?
I desperately want to move out of London because I fear for my son (not so much my daughter which seems counter-intuitive) as I'm scared that as he gets older he may become involved in a fight in which others would not think twice about using a knife.
Am I right to feel like this or is it just paranoia fuelled by the media hysteria and things are really no different?
Mark
I have to say that it feels as though the difference these days is that more people carry knives and significantly more people are prepared to use them. It seems as though the taking of a life is now of much less significance than it used to be. Does this mean we are now more populated with psychopaths than previously?
I desperately want to move out of London because I fear for my son (not so much my daughter which seems counter-intuitive) as I'm scared that as he gets older he may become involved in a fight in which others would not think twice about using a knife.
Am I right to feel like this or is it just paranoia fuelled by the media hysteria and things are really no different?
Mark
Posted on: 14 July 2008 by 555
Not anymore! 
Posted on: 15 July 2008 by prowla
Part of the problem had been the anti-family policies of the past decade, along with reductions in local services and rises in the cost of living.
Parents have to work more, so they can't look after their kids.
There are no Police out and about, no controls, and nobody is allowed to discipline kids.
Further, knives and guns have been outlawed, which clearly makes them sexy.
So put all that together, and then let's all wonder why things are going wrong!
Parents have to work more, so they can't look after their kids.
There are no Police out and about, no controls, and nobody is allowed to discipline kids.
Further, knives and guns have been outlawed, which clearly makes them sexy.
So put all that together, and then let's all wonder why things are going wrong!
Posted on: 15 July 2008 by andy c
Frank - stats show that gun crime has gone well down, at least around here...
Posted on: 16 July 2008 by djftw
Gun crime down, knife crime up, about level on injuries and fatalities though. All it shows is that making guns harder to obtain hasn't reduced any nutter's desire to kill people! I really do think the emphasis on weapons is nonsense, I've heard stories, mostly from prison officers about just how ingenious criminals can be when they want to harm someone. You need to tackle the people who carry out violent acts, the tools they use are largely irrelevant IMHO, you'll be just as dead if one of these people runs you over as you will be if they shoot you...
Posted on: 16 July 2008 by Frank Abela
Andy,
Yes, and knife crime has gone up commensurately. That was the point I was making.
djftw, I disagree with you about the weapons thing. The less weapons in the street, the less weapons-related crime. If you don't have the option, you can't use it.
Yes, and knife crime has gone up commensurately. That was the point I was making.
djftw, I disagree with you about the weapons thing. The less weapons in the street, the less weapons-related crime. If you don't have the option, you can't use it.
Posted on: 16 July 2008 by djftw
I just think the choice of weapon is an irrelevance, yes of course there are going to be more instances of the use of weapons if more people are walking round with them in their pockets. It is the nature of the people who carry out violent acts that is a problem, not the existence or availability of a specific thing that can be used as a weapon. If no one in this country was inclined to be violent it wouldn't matter one jot if we could buy TAC9s at a 24h drive-by window (not that I am suggesting that that would be a good idea).
Why is there any difference between someone who stabs someone with a knife and someone who does likewise with a broken bottle? Sure - premeditation and intent etc, but I think each is as dangerous as the other. The 9/11 hi-jackers used box-cutters, Marlene Lehnberg used scissors; pens, screwdrivers, metal combs, all these have been used in murders.
Surely it is far more sensible to explore why some people feel the need to attack others, rather than all this emphasis on a specific means of carrying out an attack. Which as I was alluding to before has only led criminals to change their weapon of choice.
Why is there any difference between someone who stabs someone with a knife and someone who does likewise with a broken bottle? Sure - premeditation and intent etc, but I think each is as dangerous as the other. The 9/11 hi-jackers used box-cutters, Marlene Lehnberg used scissors; pens, screwdrivers, metal combs, all these have been used in murders.
Surely it is far more sensible to explore why some people feel the need to attack others, rather than all this emphasis on a specific means of carrying out an attack. Which as I was alluding to before has only led criminals to change their weapon of choice.
Posted on: 16 July 2008 by Roy T
quote:Why is there any difference between someone who stabs someone with a knife and someone who does likewise with a broken bottle?
Something along these lines was raised on PMQs this afternoon - The boss in looking into it.
Posted on: 18 July 2008 by Rockingdoc
A friend of mine, who is a builder, was travelling between jobs during the day in his marked builders van when he was stopped by the Police for a failed brake light. They noticed he had a standard Leatherman in its pouch on his belt, which he explained was a tool of his trade, yet he received a serious warning for carrying a knife with a locking blade and was told not to do it again. The Leatherman has a "legal-length" blade. So, has the law changed while I wasn't looking. I often carry a Leatherman in my mountain-bike saddle bag (for the pliers mainly), so do I have to stop?
Posted on: 18 July 2008 by Simon Perry
I don't believe video games are a root cause at all. Family and social breakdown is the root cause, coupled with widespread drug abuse and incredibly weak sentencing. The law holds no fear for these people - and rightly so, because they know they are unlikely to get punished. I have family friends that work in the criminal justice system, and they all say the same thing. They come from a range of political backgrounds and earn a wide range of money. Some vote conservative, some labour, some lib dem.
If you think its bad now, wait until the current generation of knife carrying skunk smoking 'yoof' have children and see what they are like?
Simon
If you think its bad now, wait until the current generation of knife carrying skunk smoking 'yoof' have children and see what they are like?
Simon
Posted on: 18 July 2008 by djftw
quote:Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
A friend of mine, who is a builder, was travelling between jobs during the day in his marked builders van when he was stopped by the Police for a failed brake light. They noticed he had a standard Leatherman in its pouch on his belt, which he explained was a tool of his trade, yet he received a serious warning for carrying a knife with a locking blade and was told not to do it again. The Leatherman has a "legal-length" blade. So, has the law changed while I wasn't looking. I often carry a Leatherman in my mountain-bike saddle bag (for the pliers mainly), so do I have to stop?
Locking-blades don't count as a folding blade, but last time I used one I don't remember it having a locking blade. In the case of your builder friend I don't think the police would have had a leg to stand on if they'd tried to charge him.
Posted on: 18 July 2008 by Chillkram
I was giving a colleague a lift home last night and we listened to the 6.30pm news. He said to me afterwards, "Blimey no-one was stabbed today!".
I watched the tv news this morning and someone was apparently stabbed and kiiled about half an hour after that comment.
It just doesn't seem to stop at the moment.
I watched the tv news this morning and someone was apparently stabbed and kiiled about half an hour after that comment.
It just doesn't seem to stop at the moment.
Posted on: 19 July 2008 by andy c
quote:Locking-blades don't count as a folding blade, but last time I used one I don't remember it having a locking blade. In the case of your builder friend I don't think the police would have had a leg to stand on if they'd tried to charge him.
They didn't try to charge him, tho, did they?
They advised him that in the wrong circs the possession of such a knife - I own one myself - could be very close to triggering offensive weapon/blade-pointed article offences. The other point it the increased emphasis on accountability for possessing such items bearing in mind current issues.
Posted on: 19 July 2008 by Nigel Cavendish
"139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place
(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume."
Seems quite clear that if you carry a blade for use at work, you are Ok and the police should keep their "advice" to themselves...
(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume."
Seems quite clear that if you carry a blade for use at work, you are Ok and the police should keep their "advice" to themselves...
Posted on: 19 July 2008 by OscillateWildly
There is a timeline from the moment the person is conceived to the moment they commit the crime. On the timeline are the parents, health authority, social services, education authority, law and order, Society, the Government and the individual themselves. Each has influence through the choices they make.
Values - not religion, just being a decent human being, knowing the basic rights and wrongs. Our behaviour.
Education - how can we allow people to leave the schooling period unable to read and write? Imagine the frustration and anger.
Parents - being there, making time ...
Protection from abuse, does not include being deprived of a games console, and being given a damn.
Law and Order - reasonable but tough.
Reward - relative freedom and support.
Punishment - loss of freedom.
The individual - not throwing it back into the face of those who give a damn. Why do a large number of people from a similar background succeed in life in general, sport, art, business ...?
What I would like to see as the punishment; having regard for reasonable explanation and checks and balances:
In the home - unlicensed gun and certain knives-> 20 years in jail, served in full,
On the street - carrying - gun, knife or other weapon-> 25 years in jail, no parole,
On the street - using, no matter the result - life in solitary confinement.
The Media - The more events are reported, the greater is the overestimation of the occurrence of such events. However, if you want a picture of the number of injuries from weapons in your area, speak with your local A & E department. You may find such injuries are being underreported.
It isn't a single thing or organisation, it is everything and everyone.
Cheers,
OW
Values - not religion, just being a decent human being, knowing the basic rights and wrongs. Our behaviour.
Education - how can we allow people to leave the schooling period unable to read and write? Imagine the frustration and anger.
Parents - being there, making time ...
Protection from abuse, does not include being deprived of a games console, and being given a damn.
Law and Order - reasonable but tough.
Reward - relative freedom and support.
Punishment - loss of freedom.
The individual - not throwing it back into the face of those who give a damn. Why do a large number of people from a similar background succeed in life in general, sport, art, business ...?
What I would like to see as the punishment; having regard for reasonable explanation and checks and balances:
In the home - unlicensed gun and certain knives-> 20 years in jail, served in full,
On the street - carrying - gun, knife or other weapon-> 25 years in jail, no parole,
On the street - using, no matter the result - life in solitary confinement.
The Media - The more events are reported, the greater is the overestimation of the occurrence of such events. However, if you want a picture of the number of injuries from weapons in your area, speak with your local A & E department. You may find such injuries are being underreported.
It isn't a single thing or organisation, it is everything and everyone.
Cheers,
OW
Posted on: 19 July 2008 by andy c
quote:you are Ok and the police should keep their "advice" to themselves...
wrong - the police are entitled to ask questions to establish quite a few things - and then of course after they have established legitimate possession, mention circs where such posession might not be so for the benefit of the then lawful possessor.
e.g. - try asking someone who ordinarily uses said leatherman for work why he has it on him whilst out socialising in a pub? No need to reply - there are lots of answers, but questions would still get asked???
Posted on: 19 July 2008 by Nigel Cavendish
In the context described by Rockingdoc, the police response hardly seems commensurate; we might just have to disagree on this one.
Posted on: 19 July 2008 by andy c
Nigel - indeed - but the definition of 'serious word' is also in need of contect....
Posted on: 28 July 2008 by Jet Johnson
To add my two-penneth see below a view from the hard left (SWP) sent to me recently, I'm not a member of the SWP but I believe there is much of it I agree with (although some of it is rather simplistic)
The working-class estates devastated by de-industrialisation are where a
defeated, unwanted people have been herded away to suffer a
self-inflicted fate of drugs and violence. Decades of unemployment have
destroyed the old patriarchal order of male breadwinner and head of
household. Not only has it meant poverty, it has lost many men their
dignity and self-worth. In communities deprived of the markers of status
that bring respect, violence takes the place of authority. Sons inherit
the legacy of their fathers' humiliation. Without work and affordable
housing, it is impossible for many to create an independent life of
their own. The traditional rites of passage into adulthood – leaving
home, getting a job, establishing a family, and taking on legal
obligations and rights – disappear.
In these areas, enterprising young men pursue status and advancement
using primitive forms of capital accumulation. Without legal property
rights, ownership in this criminal economy is guaranteed by violence. A
small dangerous core creates a nihilistic street culture of intense
machismo and psychotic violence that engulfs a wider circle of boys and
young men. The psychological damage caused by poor parenting and their
exclusion from the mainstream leaves them feeling faceless and inferior.
It's a form of symbolic violence that is endemic to our status-pursuing,
class society. Violence is provoked by this experience of feeling
shamed, disrespected and ridiculed. As the penal reformer James Gilligan
argues, violence represents the attempt to prevent or undo this "loss of
face".
He concludes: "Those gangs of violent, disturbed, frightening boys
lording it over their disintegrating neighbourhoods are not so much an
aberration as a mirror showing us what we have made. We must deal with
them, but we won't succeed unless we recognise they're a symptom of a
greater problem."
It's clear that the key task is preventative: to ensure that young
people achieve self-empowerment through other means than macho
territorial violence, bravado and what Rutherford describes as
"primitive forms of capitalist accumulation." The problem is that those
other paths have been fatally eroded in the transformation of the UK
into a neoliberal market state. We are offered a stake in society only
on the condition that we accept that the gap between richest and poorest
is widening naturally, that the governing class adhere to a so-called
new "Third Way" (and is therefore more remote and unrepresentative of
the bottom third than it has been in nearly a hundred years) and where
absorption into a low-wage, low-skill, insecure employment market is the
only alternative to a career in the criminal underworld.
An economic and cultural transformation is what's needed: meaningful,
well-paid, secure jobs for all; an overhaul of the divisive,
hierarchical and alienating education system; massive public investment
in facilities for young people and communities, and youth and community
workers; and a general shift towards a culture which is politically and
materially equitable, inclusive and rigorously democratic from top to
bottom. Such demands are fundamentally antagonistic to the interests
served by New Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems.
The working-class estates devastated by de-industrialisation are where a
defeated, unwanted people have been herded away to suffer a
self-inflicted fate of drugs and violence. Decades of unemployment have
destroyed the old patriarchal order of male breadwinner and head of
household. Not only has it meant poverty, it has lost many men their
dignity and self-worth. In communities deprived of the markers of status
that bring respect, violence takes the place of authority. Sons inherit
the legacy of their fathers' humiliation. Without work and affordable
housing, it is impossible for many to create an independent life of
their own. The traditional rites of passage into adulthood – leaving
home, getting a job, establishing a family, and taking on legal
obligations and rights – disappear.
In these areas, enterprising young men pursue status and advancement
using primitive forms of capital accumulation. Without legal property
rights, ownership in this criminal economy is guaranteed by violence. A
small dangerous core creates a nihilistic street culture of intense
machismo and psychotic violence that engulfs a wider circle of boys and
young men. The psychological damage caused by poor parenting and their
exclusion from the mainstream leaves them feeling faceless and inferior.
It's a form of symbolic violence that is endemic to our status-pursuing,
class society. Violence is provoked by this experience of feeling
shamed, disrespected and ridiculed. As the penal reformer James Gilligan
argues, violence represents the attempt to prevent or undo this "loss of
face".
He concludes: "Those gangs of violent, disturbed, frightening boys
lording it over their disintegrating neighbourhoods are not so much an
aberration as a mirror showing us what we have made. We must deal with
them, but we won't succeed unless we recognise they're a symptom of a
greater problem."
It's clear that the key task is preventative: to ensure that young
people achieve self-empowerment through other means than macho
territorial violence, bravado and what Rutherford describes as
"primitive forms of capitalist accumulation." The problem is that those
other paths have been fatally eroded in the transformation of the UK
into a neoliberal market state. We are offered a stake in society only
on the condition that we accept that the gap between richest and poorest
is widening naturally, that the governing class adhere to a so-called
new "Third Way" (and is therefore more remote and unrepresentative of
the bottom third than it has been in nearly a hundred years) and where
absorption into a low-wage, low-skill, insecure employment market is the
only alternative to a career in the criminal underworld.
An economic and cultural transformation is what's needed: meaningful,
well-paid, secure jobs for all; an overhaul of the divisive,
hierarchical and alienating education system; massive public investment
in facilities for young people and communities, and youth and community
workers; and a general shift towards a culture which is politically and
materially equitable, inclusive and rigorously democratic from top to
bottom. Such demands are fundamentally antagonistic to the interests
served by New Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems.
Posted on: 29 July 2008 by OscillateWildly
On the Government front, it would be a start if whoever is the Prime Minister of the UK realised they are the Prime Minister of the UK, not the President of Africa, Emperor of Asia, King of Europe, nor the Saviour of the World.
Cheers,
OW
Cheers,
OW
Posted on: 29 July 2008 by 151
10 years for carrying a knife no excuses and life meaning life for using it no matter what the outcome,no excuse for scumbags,many people have had a hard life they dont go around stabbing others,theres to many bloody do-gooders.
Posted on: 29 July 2008 by 151
if someone stabbed and killed one of my kids, i would kill them and take the consequences,f-----g animals.
Posted on: 30 July 2008 by TomK
There was a street in Glasgow at the weekend involving Samurai swords. Unbelievable.
Posted on: 30 July 2008 by 151
yeh but thay probably had a hard life,so you cant blame them,i mean if you had a hard life you would probably stab someone in the face with there kids watching,people are far to hard on these poor souls.quote:Originally posted by TomK:
There was a street in Glasgow at the weekend involving Samurai swords. Unbelievable.
Posted on: 30 July 2008 by Ian G.
quote:Originally posted by TomK:
There was a street in Glasgow at the weekend involving Samurai swords. Unbelievable.
When I was at School in Greenock I had the pleasure of watching a 'fight' between a protestant 15 year old with two machetes and a catholic lad with two alsatian dogs - you couldn't make it up.....