Ring

Oh and the dragon, we wondered how that would come about..... John said he was expecting Sesame Street.



It ended up being a 4' green puppet with little red sparklies puffing out once in a while. I nudged John and put my hand to my head, for the whole scene I found it very difficult to not laugh out loud. Now imagine a Blue bodybuilder with rag doll yellow hair and big furry jammies (as in the above pic) confronting a puppet dragon, no sword in hand. Dragon turns around and floats out and muscle boy turns, and with a huge half circle of the stage propped, and his black figure 5 feet away holding a long blue neon tube slowly walk to the half circle and fit the tube thru a flap, but hero never really holds it. The circle drops to reveal fat red and black bald man with blue tube tucked under his arms and goes thru the dying scene. Nicely sung tho.

One friend said after that the scale of the puppet may have indicated his not having fear. That may be the reasoning but it made the drama into a comedy.

Definitely looks interesting. I must assume this will hit DVD at some point, at which point I may have to indulge myself.

As to how to present Fafner, that's always struck me as somewhat difficult. You can get something comparatively straightforward (eg, the wooden dragon on wheels in the Boulez-led Ring), but even that looks silly. The Barenboim-led cycle was pretty good, though - you have to see, I can't adequately explain it. Certainly seems better than a midget dragon . . .


--

Or avoid showing Fafner(as the dragon)altogether which is what many directors do now. I know it disappoints those who feel short-changed by not seeing a silly dragon but......

Same for the Ride of the Valkryies. Never seen it work -always looks ridiculous. Just do something else with the music..show Hitler at Bayreuth or anything..

Sister xx

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
Or avoid showing ......

........ Just do something else with the music..show Hitler at Bayreuth or anything..

Sister xx

LOL! You're not suppose the say things like that about our most highly revered Meister!

I have none of the music on records, and generally wonder what all the fuss is about myself, with it!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
Or avoid showing ......

........ Just do something else with the music..show Hitler at Bayreuth or anything..

Sister xx

LOL! You're not suppose the say things like that about our most highly revered Meister!

I have none of the music on records, and generally wonder what all the fuss is about myself, with it!

ATB from George

And why not...German directors have been using Nazi references in Ring productions for years,
as they attempt to confront their country's past. Die Meistersinger causes even more problems in Germany.

It's interesting the power and the controversy these works throw up after all these years. Personally I love Wagner but I understand why people don't like his work.

Sister xx

Dear Siss,

Look at my response. Starts with LOL! The rest should then be taken [somewhat crypotically perhaps] as a dig at Wagner and his thinly veiled messages in some of the words he set ...

I think the inherent and unavoidable anti-Jewish bias in Meistersinger should be brought out at every opportunity!

Mind you I don't like Nazis and I don't like Wagner either!

In fact he is my least favourite composer ...

ATB from George

So you never tire of telling us, George, with utterly boring predictability.

Graham,

Do you like Nazis or Wagner's anti-Jewish approach?

My view of these things is inevitably consistent, and not about to change, just as your seeming admisration of this odious man [Wagner - I would not accuse you of being a Nazi-lover] is also apparently consistent ...

ATB from George

I speak fluent German, I have some very close German friends and I despise what the Nazis did, as do they. What Wagner has to do with Nazis, though, is beyond me.

I don't particularly like Wagner's portrayal of Beckmesser. Otherwise, I don't find that whatever Wagner may, or may not, have thought about Jews has any impact on his music.

I find Wagner's music sublime. You don't, which is fair enough, but must you tell us this every time someone posts a thread touching on Wagner?

G

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Siss,

Look at my response. Starts with LOL! The rest should then be taken [somewhat crypotically perhaps] as a dig at Wagner and his thinly veiled messages in some of the words he set ...

I think the inherent and unavoidable anti-Jewish bias in Meistersinger should be brought out at every opportunity!

Mind you I don't like Nazis and I don't like Wagner either!

In fact he is my least favourite composer ...

ATB from George

Hi George,

Well let's all bring out the blatant anti-semitism of "Oliver Twist" or the "Merchant of Venice". let's all boycott Rachmaninov. Ever heard his opera "The Miserly Knight" ? Makes Die Meistersinger sound like Fiddler on the Roof.

I was just making a point about the problems and the challenges Wagner's operas pose to German directors and audiences in the light of the Nazi association. This thread was all about a new production of Siegfried in LA and I apologise for going slightly off piste with my remarks about Hitler in relation to the staging of certain parts of the Ring. But the "I don't like Wagner because he was anti-semitic" is getting a little past it's sell by date, don't you think?

Sister xx

Dear Siss,

The sell by date for ceasing to dislike anti-Jewish artists including Shakespeare, Dickens, and Wagner will, for me, be the day they throw the last sod of soil onto my grave!

ATB from George

Dear Graham,

I was not commenting directly on the new production but rather responnding to a post linking [quite reasonably it seems to me, in the course of other Ring productions] Wagner's music with the Nazis.

If you don't like it then press the ignore button for my posts. I promise not to be offended.

I might add that I met my first German in the last few weeks - in the sense that I have met Germans before but never actually spoken to one before this one. He was a charming fellow, with whom I shared a most pleasant conversation.

ATB from George

George, if you really think that Wagner had anything to do with Nazis, you're mad. You obviously have a tenuous grasp of history also.

And do not ever ask again if I'm pro-Nazi or anti-Jewish because I profess a liking for Wagner's music. That's just f*cking infantile! You know f*ck all about me and I take the strongest possible objection.

I shan't comment further, but you really need to get out in the world a little bit more before expressing the xenophobic cr*p that you spout.

Would you buy a Volkswagon George, or (if pressed) eat a sausage?

I think this is a difficult issue.

My relatives fled Germany after the war due to their support of the Nazi regime. I don't feel in the slightest bit guilty for the awful behaviour of the Nazi's, any more than I do for the slave trade or the destruction of civilisations in the christian crusades. It had nothing to do with me.

I hate facism...but yes, I do love Wagner, admire Shakespeare and love gospel music.

As Lemmy said, the Nazi's were bad guys, but they had great uniforms.

Dear Graham,

Look at the time lines if you think I could possible think that that Richard Wagner had any personal dealings [with the Nazis], but consider his writings [which he had published] about Jews .... I am actually not going to spell this out too brutally but leave it with this thought:

The Nazis indeed had some deeply horrid predecesors to base their ideas on didn't they?

ATB from George

Dear Mat,

I once bought a VW - a Golf Deisel. I would never buy another! It was a terrible car. The Volvo is much better!

I enjoy sausages, mostly ones from a little further east, but nothing wrong with a German frankfurter when you are in a hurry!

ATB from George

You're entitled to that point of view. I don't share it. But Wagner was one of the greats.

And don't dare ever again to accuse me of those vile things! Unless you're prepared to do it to my face.

Dear Gtraham,

I sincerely hope we never meet. I cannot guarantee that I would retain my usual sanguine composure.

Before you fire off with anger as above, please first read the post:

My view of these things is inevitably consistent, and not about to change, just as your seeming admiration of this odious man [Wagner - I would not accuse you of being a Nazi-lover] is also apparently consistent ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
And don't dare ever again to accuse me of those vile things! Unless you're prepared to do it to my face.

I do wonder about this board at times...the tone really does drop...and from George as well. I'm extremely dissapointed...and saddened, truly saddened.

As do, and am, I!

Dear Mat,

I have been part of this forum since 2003.

I have found that after a very long time trying to be polite and diplomatic that this is actually making no differencce anymore. It used to be that you could have a polite exchange with someone like Hermann [who usual came over as rather abrupt and aggresive, and would certainly raise the heat level if encouraged] provided that one dealt with diplomacy and generosity with him. He was one of a fair group of similar ilk those years ago, but nowadays both the standard of comment has dropped and the amenability of people to respond with grace has all but evaporated ...

Same with work. Try to be kind and the bullies just see this as a chance to get their way and pass down the sh+++ to someone gentle.

Life has taught me that sometimes you have to be as tough as those you face off.

Even as abrupt and rude sometimes.

Please do not expect me to be a different person than I am.

If it please you to ignore me, then as I said to Graham, just ignore me. I shall not be offended by this - not at all. I do not expect that anyone should exchange views on my wavelength all that often, and it is also true that those with whom I once frequently shared long and valued [by me] conversations on music here [in the Music Room] have all left me here on my own.

Fortunately I still share valued thoughts with some of them away from here!

But this place has become rude, and no longer is a place to have a deep conversation about music.

The last thread I put up - Geronius - is as arid a thread as it would be possible to imagine.

The question that is becoming an itch for me is why I even look here anymore!

ATB from George

George,

As I've said elsewhere. Blogs are odd places where behaviour is larger than life...in some ways this is the magic of them, communication can be more lucid, the shy more vocal, the quiet louder. Equally, tempers can flare where social graces would prevail face to face.

I think we owe it to one another though to have some respect for each others views and personal luggage.

Yes, I agree, the world is a tough place. But we can always chose to behave with some respect to others...especially on here.

I've had some lively debate with MikeS, but I would sit down for a beer with him anytime (none of that American rubbish mind you).

I think any suggestion that folk lean towards the Nazi's will always provoke a strong response. I've faced it may times...but now bear it with a shrug. Life's too short.

I do miss Adam, sad to see he's settled in France...that lot tickled the Nazi's tummies for far too long.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:


The Nazis indeed had some deeply horrid predecesors to base their ideas on didn't they?

ATB from George

Yes!!! Houston Stewart Chamberlain..The godfather of racial theories and who was married to Eva, Richard Wagner's daughter! A nice man who expounded social Darwinisim, loathed Jews and was BRITISH! When he died the Nazis virtually gave him a state funeral, they "owed" so much to him.

Anyway I'm bored with all this. It seems impossible to have any discussion about Wagner here without his anti-semitism being mentioned.

Sister xx

Dear Mat,

This is goodbye from me, and not just from this thread.

I am naturally a polite person, who life has toughened up in the last few years in a way that is coarsening to an extent.

Work is unavoidable so that it take what it takes, but I do not need to be here, and shall not be from now on. There is no fun left in it ...

Best wishes to all my friends who only know through the Forum. The time has come.

ATB from George

George, what a load of nonsense you're spouting here. You were neither "polite" nor "diplomatic" here when you accused me of views that would render me liable to arrest, under UK law, as you did above. It's all there for anyone who wants to read it.

You appear to think that your views trump all others on this Forum. But you are wrong: you have no rights to it.

Show some humility, accept that you've overstepped the mark, and pipe down.

But do not ever again accuse me of any form of discrimination, because you've just got the wrong person.

Interesting to read that you met your "first German" the other day. Did you quiz them on their Nazi forefathers? Or whether they liked Wagner?

And you're right, I hope we never meet, because if you expressed the views to my face that you've expressed here, I'd 'phone the Police and have you arrested.

Graham