I don't get it

Posted by: Mike Cole on 25 January 2002

I've tried listening to jazz a few times but I just don't get it. There doesn't seem to be a beat or a melody, just a lot of guys playing around with their instruments ... and they don't seem to be playing the same song. Can someone explain what it is that one is supposed to be listening to. This is not a troll, I am just curious.

Mike

Posted on: 25 January 2002 by dave simpson

What's the old saying: "If I have to explain it...."

If someone asked me for advice on this I'd suggest stop trying. It'll hit you at some point...or not. Same thing happened to me with Bob Dylan. Took me 30 years to "get it (him)".

regards,

dave

Posted on: 25 January 2002 by Sigmund

Mike, it takes a lot of listening to be able to listen to a jazz group, even a small one, in action. I mean, they play as a unit, ideally, where each player listens to, bounces off of, inspires and contributes to the piece they're playing. It's like an intricate call and response or a multi-level conversation. It's only after a lot of practice that one can hear the whole and it takes patience. In addition, what you're saying is that you don't know the language; it's hard for you to understand what they're doing. If you're interested in meeting jazz halfway, I'd suggest two things. 1) Go back to Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens, Jelly Roll Morton with or without his Red Hot Peppers or Bix Beiderbecke either with a small group or with Paul Whiteman and give them a good couple of listens. The language of jazz then was simpler. It was based on the melodies or the scales of simpler songs and their improvisations should make more sense to you especially since the music they made in the '20s and '30s has since infused every aspect of western pop music. The second thing I'd suggest is to listen to some ballads or blues from any period because that language may be more accessible to you. If you like blues, I can wholeheartedly recommend Louis Jordan and his infectious, jump blues, an early influence on rock and roll and T-Bone Walker's archtypical guitar playing. There's a terrific LJ collection simply called the Best Of on MCA #4079 and anything by TB on Charly or Imperial. Btw, they're both major influences of BB King. Now, listening to singers might be an easy way into jazz since they generally are more accessible than an instrument because they usually stick closer to the melody. Find one whose tone of voice and style you like and listen for how he or she plays with the melody and interacts with the accompanying instruments. Perhaps your local library or a friend has cds you could listen to rather than buying blind. Try Billie Holiday, Lee Wiley, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald, Billy Eckstine or Johnny Hartman. Hartman's best stuff is on the Impulse label, specifically with John Coltrane or I Just Dropped By to Say Hello. Be patient with yourself. You'll be learning a new language and a new perspective, not to mention worldview. It will take some time. And, have some fun with it.

Posted on: 25 January 2002 by redeye

I've heard that...

liberal use of cannabis prior to the listening can radically improve one's understanding of jazz.

I've been told this by two people!

Wouldn't know myself of course, filthy stuff.

Posted on: 25 January 2002 by dave simpson

Think Sigmund got liberal tonight;)

(just kidding Sigmund-welcome btw)

regards,

dave

Posted on: 26 January 2002 by fred simon

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Cole:
I've tried listening to jazz a few times but I just don't get it. There doesn't seem to be a beat or a melody, just a lot of guys playing around with their instruments ... and they don't seem to be playing the same song. Can someone explain what it is that one is supposed to be listening to. This is not a troll, I am just curious.
Mike

Mike, it would help to know what jazz you've heard in order to point you in the right, perhaps different, direction.

Other than that, I humbly suggest my own NAIM-Audio album, Dreamhouse. On it, I am quite confident you will hear lots of melody, plenty of beat, and that it sounds like we are all playing the same song. Give it a try … it can do you no harm.

Posted on: 26 January 2002 by garyi

I like Zappas Jazz, i.e. Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Hot Rats, Grand Wazoo, Waka Jawaka.

If someone could recommend jazz (fusion I guess?) in this vein I would appriciate it.

I too can't get on with the stuff where the bass man has a go then the drummer then the sax, does me head in.

I really don't like kind of blue either, it sounds porney!

My Opinion of course.

Posted on: 26 January 2002 by Peter Stockwell

That was 20 or more years ago, now I love it and my recod collection has increasing quantities of jazz recordings. I have records that I bought 20 years ago to try jazz, that I love now, but then I found just OK. I think the advice to start with artist that stick close to Blues forms is not a bad idea.

Peter

Posted on: 26 January 2002 by Sigmund

... glad to see the support and encouragement here! An aside to Nick re: drummers putting you to sleep. Admittedly, cool jazz drummers from the early '50s are more disposed to using brushes. That's purposeful. But, during the '40s, you had some powerhouse players especially with the big bands. Also, you can't nap while Max Roach, Kenny Clarke or Joe Harris are behind Charlie Parker. Likewise, once Art Blakey kicked in during the late '50s at the birth of the hard bop phase, drummers once more were encouraged to use their full voice.

I agree with Ryan about Oscar Peterson. His trio with Ray Brown is exceptionally tasty and very accessible. Likewise, as Nick mentions, I think Kind of Blue is a great, great album. Btw, the *remastered* version on Legacy has more presence and is clearer and more balanced than even the gold version.

Posted on: 26 January 2002 by fred simon

quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:
Likewise, as Nick mentions, I think Kind of Blue is a great, great album. Btw, the *remastered* version on Legacy has more presence and is clearer and more balanced than even the gold version.

Yes, not to mention the speed/pitch problem on half the album which has now been fixed.

Posted on: 27 January 2002 by Peter C

The previous post has hit it the nail on the head, Jazz is a great musical form to hear live.

It also helps if you can play music yourself, because you can appreciate the improvisation inherent within Jazz.

Try :

Miles Davis recordings like Kind of Blue or Sketchs of Spain for Jazz Improvisation.

John Coltrane for Soulful Saxophone playing.

For more modern Jazz try Tommy Smith or Andy Sheppard

Posted on: 27 January 2002 by Peter C

I forgot to mention that Naim Records have produced some good Jazz recordings, e.g. the Charlie Haden CD's

So have Linn Records as well e.g. Tommy Smith and Carol Kidd

Posted on: 27 January 2002 by shazbut

I too have struggled with jazz - all to often it just sounds like aimless noodling.Although I like a lot of early jazz (Louis Armstrong etc.) the "antique" sound doesn't appeal to everybody.
If you're a rock fan,then I'd suggest trying Bitches Brew by Miles Davis.Purists may say it's not jazz,but you won't find it anywhere else in a record shop.
It's very interesting rhythmically,and although I wouldn't describe it as melodic,a lot of the music has very insistent motifs,that you can't ignore,unlike a lot of jazz,which does'nt seem to be doing much of anything.

Posted on: 27 January 2002 by ken c

hi mike,

you have some very good answers already, but i just wanted to know what music does it for you? what sort of music do you like?

i believe music has to communicate something to you in order for you to "get it".

i really got into coltrane when i saw an old video recording of them playing "favourite things" and elvin jones describing, apparently, the almost spiritual atmosphere that sort of descended on jc. ej thought this is probably what made it difficult for jc to stop playing because apparently it went on and on and on... everytime i listen to jc music, i remember how ej was so genuine and serious about this particular session, and many others.

thats what i like about jazz. these guys have serious FUN....

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 27 January 2002 by Steve Toy

I like the principle - it gives much scope for spontaneous creativity, but I still can't get into it, but then I have no real musical taste, and I am the first to admit it.

I was told once by a music teacher at school that I had perfect pitch, so my lack of taste should not be read as my lacking in musical perception.

It is all down to personal taste, and what happens to "hit the spot" on an emotional level.

Jazz just doesn't do it for me at home on my own audio system, but I did enjoy live jazz in the piano bars that I used to frequent in France about ten or so years ago - the ambience and all that just lifted my mood in those particular surroundings.

Cheers,

Steve.

Posted on: 28 January 2002 by Pete

...a rather catch-all term that is so broad as to be almost meaningless. If you can find a few rock or classical pieces you don't like, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't take rock or classical, just that you've listened to the wrong pieces.

Jazz comes in a variety of flavours, including stuff with very obvious melodies and very obvious beats. In addition to Fred's shameless plug (not actually that shameless at all, it's a superb record) for Dreamhouse, maybe try either of the Earthworks CDs on Discipline (A Part, and Yet Apart and Sound of Surprise) or the Bruford/Towner/Gomez collaboration If Summer Had Its Ghosts. If you can't find beats and melody in those then I'd start worrying...

Pete.

Posted on: 28 January 2002 by Tony L

quote:
I find it strange people say they don't get Jazz, like it is some kind of exam. You don't hear guys say I don't get Rock.

I agree completely. I love jazz, especially that period from the late 50s through to the mid 60s. Jazz was something that I knew I liked right off, basically from hearing it in the soundtracks from old film noir movies (I still think jazz should be in black and white with just the right side lighting!).

The thing I found really daunting was getting any kind of handle on what jazz I liked. Researching a music from a scene that was pretty much over and done with was something I had never done before, I was only used to buying current music as it came out. I am sure this is a major alienating point for many potential jazz fans. As it happens I hit pretty lucky, at the time I started actively looking Blue Note had just released its 50th anniversary LP for £1.99, so I bought that. This album led to me buying a few real classics like Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder, Cannonball Adderley's Somthin' Else, Jimmy Smith 'The Sermon' and Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue. I came to the conclusion that there is not actually anything bad on Blue Note Records from the 50s and 60s period. I still stand by that, and will happily buy Blue Note albums blind.

The great thing about jazz, is once you have got your foot in the door buying more stuff is pretty easy. The individual musicians moved around so much that it is easy to just buy albums because they have a musician that you like from another album. I am still exploring, my jazz collection is way to small (I have about 3' of LPs and 12" of CDs). It is a medium that I much prefer buying on vinyl, it just feels right to do so. I buy original pressings whenever possible. There is unquestionably something special about jazz vinyl.

Tony.

Posted on: 28 January 2002 by fred simon

quote:
Originally posted by Pete:

In addition to Fred's shameless plug for Dreamhouse (not actually that shameless at all, it's a superb record)

You know, that is so true. (insert emoticon here)

Thanks, Pete.

Posted on: 28 January 2002 by bdnyc

I agree with many of the posts above. Since I first heard jazz, now over twenty years ago, by being introduced to it by some music loving friends who were older than I was, or more educated in music than I was, I found that you have to find something that shares the musical languages you are familiar with as a jumping off point. So, if you enjoy guitar based rock bands, try some music by players such as John Abercrombie or Ralph Towner on ECM, a current Bill Frisell or Pat Metheny album, or a Pat Martino release.

If you enjoy piano music, try a title by such artists as Tommy Flanagan, Bill Evans, Ahmad Jamal, or the excellent Fred Simon CD that Naim has recorded so well. If you enjoy chamber music, try a Modern Jazz Quartet album. If you like horn players, I would try Sonny Rollins, Stan Getz, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, or Miles Davis. They are all more accessable and melodic musicians, while later players can take longer to develop the context for understanding. Examples that mike take longer to get would be the later period John Coltrane, Cecil Taylor, Charlie Parker, and many others. Note, these are outstanding artists, but perhaps not the first place to start with jazz.

Here are five jazz titles that most would agree are wonderful, and in my experience many music lovers would enjoy, regardless of their exposure to jazz.

1) Duke Ellington Meets Louis Armstrong.
2) Sonny Rollins- Way Out West.
3) Bill Evans- Waltz For Debby.
4) Miles Davis- Kind Of Blue.
5) Ralph Towner- Anthem.

Have fun and don't feel you have to like any music simply because others do. If you listen and don't "get it", just file it away for another time. If you have a tuner, you might do what I did to learn about both jazz and classical, which seemed like worlds unto themselves. I would just listen in the backround all day when I was at home, and found out who was who, and what I liked came very clear to me once I was exposed to some of the choices.

Posted on: 28 January 2002 by John G.

A few years back I went to Jazz Record Mart in Chicago and mentioned that I was interested in getting into Jazz and what they would recommend.

Here's the four they recommended, they really hit the spot and got me hooked.

[This message was edited by John Gilleran on TUESDAY 29 January 2002 at 04:29.]

Posted on: 29 January 2002 by ken c

...I found that you have to find something that shares the musical languages you are familiar with as a jumping off point.

exactly my view too...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 31 January 2002 by Mike Cole

Guys,

Thanks for the suggestions. I may go down to the local used record shop and look at their jazz section. The reason I was listening is because there isn't really any rock music that I like nowadays. I like to listen to modern rock on the radio but would generally never consider paying money for a CD that doesn't really turn me on. I guess I am a hopeless lover of classic rock type music - especially guitar oriented music like Deep Purple,Michael Schenker, Blue Oyster Cult etc. The guitarists in these bands really knew how to craft a lead solo. Nobody really does that type of music nowadays and the guitarists from these bands (that are still alive) don't have that "spark" anymore. So I am now trying to get into different genres of music - especially those that are available on LP. BTW, the local used record shop (actually the only used record shop) here in Orlando does not sell cheap LPs. Generally they start at about $10 and go up from there. Where is everybody getting these $3 LPs :-(

Mike

Posted on: 19 March 2002 by Peter Stockwell

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Lees:
Tony Lonorgan said:
"The great thing about jazz, is once you have got your foot in the door buying more stuff is pretty easy"
And this sums up what I've been trying to do - find away around my prejudices (typified for me by swishy brushed drums on old standards).
Today I took delivery of an album I remembered liking at the time (early 70's) but never owned: "Journey In Satchidananda" by Alice Coltrane.
It's superb. It slinks/lopes along (though not in a lounge-jazz kind of way) with Phoaroah Sanders sax improvising above Alice's harp arpeggios and the steady drone of a tamboura (Indian four-string drone instrument), plus drums, assorted percussion and upright bass (one track features Charlie Haden).

You know that Pharoah Saunders was in one of the later John Coltrane Bands. You really should check out Coltrane's 'My Favourite Things'.

Peter

Posted on: 19 March 2002 by Pete

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Lees:

Although it's difficult to tell of such short samples, I'm afraid I was a bit daunted by what I heard.

Fair enough, there's still quite a bit from JC that bounces straight off me. However, "My Favourite Things" is very accessible stuff indeed, and all the things the first post in this thread suggested jazz isn't.

Pete.

Posted on: 19 March 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon

Nick,

If you are looking for some accessible John Coltrane in his later stuff I would either recommend Cresent or A Love Supreme. Cresent is the more accessible record, A Love Supreme is probably Coltrane's greatest record. You heard a bit of ALS when you came round. It is not easy listening or lounge jazz by any means, as Coltrane is clearly going through a cathartic experience on this - depends whether this is what you are looking for. The later classics like Ascension or Interstellar Space are extremely challenging. Not the place to start. In fact you may want to go back further and check out My Favourite Things.

David

Posted on: 19 March 2002 by David Hobbs-Mallyon

I did say 'extremely challenging'

"My Favourite Things" is an old standard, but Coltrane gives it a very individual treatment. To give any more away would spoil what is undoubtedly a classic. If you are in doubt you can always borrow it off me.

If swishy drums are a problem, I guess you don't like 'Kind of Blue'?

David

[This message was edited by David Hobbs-Mallyon on TUESDAY 19 March 2002 at 17:05.]