Science or fiction ?
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 25 September 2002
When you are saying that component "x" will be better several weeks after you are starting to listen to it, don't you think that maybe after several weeks you are becoming to be used to the sound of the component rather than that something is actually happens to the component?
I have no doubt that the Naim components are getting better for the first few days when they are on the "on" position, but that a piece of equipment gets better and better for weeks of operation? Is there any support for this acclaim by Naim?
Arye
I have no doubt that the Naim components are getting better for the first few days when they are on the "on" position, but that a piece of equipment gets better and better for weeks of operation? Is there any support for this acclaim by Naim?
Arye
Posted on: 25 September 2002 by David Antonelli
Hi,
Last year when I bought my Wilson Benesch ACT 2s it was a massive step from the start, but after two weeks of constant play I found a certain song on Nick Cave's "Let Love in" had the most annoying and cacaphonic trebble I'd ever heard. I checked it day after day and it didn't get better. Then I put the CD back and didn't listen to it for three months. After that, the cacaphony was gone and it all fell into place. A true marvel as I was sure that this was going to be an unlistenable track.
I've had many such experience with burning in Naim kit as well. You never "get used to" annoying levels of hash and brightness, but in time with burn in and/or warm up they should go away, at least if you have a decent and well set up system. Naim kit approaches perfection in an asymptotic way in the time domain. It takes longer to get those last few kinks out.
Dave
Last year when I bought my Wilson Benesch ACT 2s it was a massive step from the start, but after two weeks of constant play I found a certain song on Nick Cave's "Let Love in" had the most annoying and cacaphonic trebble I'd ever heard. I checked it day after day and it didn't get better. Then I put the CD back and didn't listen to it for three months. After that, the cacaphony was gone and it all fell into place. A true marvel as I was sure that this was going to be an unlistenable track.
I've had many such experience with burning in Naim kit as well. You never "get used to" annoying levels of hash and brightness, but in time with burn in and/or warm up they should go away, at least if you have a decent and well set up system. Naim kit approaches perfection in an asymptotic way in the time domain. It takes longer to get those last few kinks out.
Dave
Posted on: 25 September 2002 by Manu
David,
you are very kind for low budget owners.
They become closer to perfection every day.
In an infinite time frame, a CD3+Nait3 will reach perfection. There is hope
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
you are very kind for low budget owners.
They become closer to perfection every day.
In an infinite time frame, a CD3+Nait3 will reach perfection. There is hope
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 26 September 2002 by Alex S.
'Let Love In' is quite a test of system components and set-up. Get anything wrong and it can sound horrid, especially the chorus on track one. It gave me great joy and relief when it finally sounded good on my own system, and when it sounds good it sounds very good.
Alex
Alex
Posted on: 26 September 2002 by JohanR
I bought a new HiCap together with a Headline half a year ago. My old HiCap is 9 years old. Comparing the two caps driving my NAC 82 the following happened:
When brand new the new HiCap sounded exiting but quite harsh compared to the old one. I let the new HiCap power the Headline for about two months and compared them again. Now the new HiCap still sounded more exiting but not harsh, and the old one soft.
Convinced me!
JohanR
When brand new the new HiCap sounded exiting but quite harsh compared to the old one. I let the new HiCap power the Headline for about two months and compared them again. Now the new HiCap still sounded more exiting but not harsh, and the old one soft.
Convinced me!
JohanR
Posted on: 26 September 2002 by David Antonelli
Alex,
It sure is a test. Let Love In sounds worse (more chaotic) than the Birthday Party when the system isn't burned in right. There is such a cacaphony of screeching voices and tinny horns in some of the tracks. A new 500 also makes a mess of it, but after six weeks it sounds brilliant.
Emanuel,
I listen only to a boom box whenever I go away, and old JVC model from the 80s. It puts things in perspective and manages to sound very musical while cutting out layers of detail. It brings things to life better than any Mark levinson system I've heard. There are lots of inexpensive systems that sound brilliant for the money.
Cheers,
dave
It sure is a test. Let Love In sounds worse (more chaotic) than the Birthday Party when the system isn't burned in right. There is such a cacaphony of screeching voices and tinny horns in some of the tracks. A new 500 also makes a mess of it, but after six weeks it sounds brilliant.
Emanuel,
I listen only to a boom box whenever I go away, and old JVC model from the 80s. It puts things in perspective and manages to sound very musical while cutting out layers of detail. It brings things to life better than any Mark levinson system I've heard. There are lots of inexpensive systems that sound brilliant for the money.
Cheers,
dave
Posted on: 26 September 2002 by Manu
Dave,
Totally agree,
I couldn't resist the joke.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Totally agree,
I couldn't resist the joke.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by Nic Peeling
Arye
I have a colleague who used to design professional and consumer audio amps in New Zealand. One major reason for burn-in (he says) is that Naim use tantallum capacitors in the signal path. The capacitive effect of these "nasty devices" (his quote) is that they change their properties markedly in the first few weeks of use, and have very significant, extended warm-up periods if they are ever switched off and allowed to go cold. In addition warming up a tantallum cap, then allowing it to go cold and then warming it up again, brings it to its run-in state quicker (an effect noted in postings over the years). His somewhat jaundiced view (he is not a Naim fan like myself) is that a significant part of the "Naim sound" comes from the tantallum caps. It also explains why getting Naim gear serviced after it gets about ten years old makes such a significant difference (Naim replace the caps).
regards
Nic P
[This message was edited by Nic Peeling on FRIDAY 27 September 2002 at 11:22.]
I have a colleague who used to design professional and consumer audio amps in New Zealand. One major reason for burn-in (he says) is that Naim use tantallum capacitors in the signal path. The capacitive effect of these "nasty devices" (his quote) is that they change their properties markedly in the first few weeks of use, and have very significant, extended warm-up periods if they are ever switched off and allowed to go cold. In addition warming up a tantallum cap, then allowing it to go cold and then warming it up again, brings it to its run-in state quicker (an effect noted in postings over the years). His somewhat jaundiced view (he is not a Naim fan like myself) is that a significant part of the "Naim sound" comes from the tantallum caps. It also explains why getting Naim gear serviced after it gets about ten years old makes such a significant difference (Naim replace the caps).
regards
Nic P
[This message was edited by Nic Peeling on FRIDAY 27 September 2002 at 11:22.]
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by Arye_Gur
Nic,
Thanks for the interesting answer.
Arye
Thanks for the interesting answer.
Arye
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by graphoman
of course it’s the equipment that changes during burning-in, not the person himself. However, I think it’s neither science nor fiction. Simply it’s practice.
graphoman
graphoman
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by David Antonelli
Hi,
Interesting about the capacitors...
I'm an inorganic/materials research scientist and about 1/3 of my papers are on Ta. It is a weird element, extremely robust as both its Oxide and metallic form. My whole group is moving over to Ta chemistry now. Maybe that explains why I like naim so much - secret alchemical/mystical connection (ha!), but not in the Tanais Fox mode.
We are actually persuing some work on mesoporous Ta oxide as a supercapacitor material.
Dave
BTW: after ten years finally "get" Thrills Chills and Belly Aches. When it came out I thought it was a bunch of wank, now I love it. Its that naim/WB magic!
Interesting about the capacitors...
I'm an inorganic/materials research scientist and about 1/3 of my papers are on Ta. It is a weird element, extremely robust as both its Oxide and metallic form. My whole group is moving over to Ta chemistry now. Maybe that explains why I like naim so much - secret alchemical/mystical connection (ha!), but not in the Tanais Fox mode.
We are actually persuing some work on mesoporous Ta oxide as a supercapacitor material.
Dave
BTW: after ten years finally "get" Thrills Chills and Belly Aches. When it came out I thought it was a bunch of wank, now I love it. Its that naim/WB magic!
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by Rockingdoc
you probably need some antibiotics
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by Arye_Gur
My friends in the Israeli forum don't agree with the tantallum story and they sent me to -
tantallum - 1
ant to here -
tantallum -2
arye
tantallum - 1
ant to here -
tantallum -2
arye
Posted on: 27 September 2002 by Manu
Interresting Arye.
In Naim designs, tantalum are used for DC rejection, not as local energy reservoirs (what they call decoupling in the paper). According to this paper, they are the most suitable for this pupose in audio frequencies. The capacitance value needed for this application (tens of uF) is such that the only alternative would be standard electrolitics, they are known for their pour sound qualities in the signal path.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
In Naim designs, tantalum are used for DC rejection, not as local energy reservoirs (what they call decoupling in the paper). According to this paper, they are the most suitable for this pupose in audio frequencies. The capacitance value needed for this application (tens of uF) is such that the only alternative would be standard electrolitics, they are known for their pour sound qualities in the signal path.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.