HDX how does that little screen work

So does the HDX as I understand.

Hi Gary,
So that gives the logic of the screen complexity even less validity. Ref your other point "just walked in ", I found the touch screen less than easy to use both in terms of scrolling and initiating the track you want, which knocks it back again.
Once again I have to say I really like the HDX I just think the UI was not totally thought through in the context of the potential profile and expectations of HDX purchasers. A new customer target group brings with them new expectations, if the HDX is purporting to be better/easier than inserting a CD from a well filed collection then it has to deliver on that promise/expectation- it's just a fact of (business )life.
Barrie

Munch you have me mistaken with someone that cares what you are doing.

Nothing will ever be easier than inserting a cd an pressing play Baz, however if I want to play five different songs on five different disks straight after each other (Which I frequently do) then computer based audio including the HDX is the way forward.

If you cannot see yourself getting over a nifty touch screen fair enough, but one way or the other any kind of computer audio you care to mention is going to have its share of imperfections, I have an appleTV here that will crash if you look at it wrong, if I wake my mini from sleep ATV frequently does not pick it back up and HDMI is a bloody disaster in that you cannot turn a tv over to the ATV without a crash or total weirdness happening. Oh and in order to use it effectively you need an ipod touch with its 3 inch display, kind of reminds me of another device we are talking about

Hi Gary,

Hi Gary,
I am in agreement with you regarding the way forwardbut I can already do this as my macbook does not crash, it runs fine through my S/N DAC, if I feel the need to use a large screen I can use the mac, or I can use the iTouch for easy access, as you know with iTunes I can create my own playlist for playback - "music to eat Beef to" etc, or use Genius ( not perfect either)or I or my friends can browse the albums with the iTouch - my key tenet is that I want and will pay for the Naim sound ( not a mac/dac - although it's OK) but with the ease offered by a joined up thought through solution. Of course I can easily ignore the TS on the HDX, but then why am I paying for it ? ( if it only adds 15.00 pounds on the retail, I will forget all about it - but I bet it's a little more somehow ). All I am saying is that as of yet the TS is the weak spot of the HDX, it is not a well thought out solution in the real world. But lets not get too precious about it, any product, especially as new/groundbreaking as the HDX needs to evolve, but evolution is learning/ fixing what doesn't work, not just blindly congratulating yourself on what does.
On your other point I must thank you for your assistance with getting my iTouch up and running, but that problem transpired to be due to pilot error on my behalf and not a design flaw in the mac, itunes or the iTouch.
All the best,
Barrie
- ps. if you are on the Vienna trip, I'll buy you a beer

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
I use a very high power pc media box with a coax out for music.
It has never crashed in the four years i have been using it.
I have been using a black Macbook with optic out just for music for the last month or so and going to use a Itouch with this set up in the next week or so.
It works from day one out of the box.
I can if i want run the Mac as i do my pc through my Plasma.
And it works.
It just works.

What do you mean "it works" ? Are you mad? Wash your mouth out with soap and water for goodness sake. This is a place for things NOT working, thus needing expensive upgrades, cables, powers supplies, gold plated connectors and 100% oxygen free copper, and £947 power cables. Thus we can speak ad nauseam about how to get things to work, er, differently.

"It works from day one out of the box" indeed..... hmphhhh...... whatever next ?



Mind you, so does mine

Munch no doubt like you I have been using mac since the late 80s. I love macs to bits, but they are still computers and far far from perfect, jolly good for you if your computers have never crashed in fours years - you are to be congratulated.

I am not going to lie though, macs go wrong just like PCs. Sadly macs don't crash though, they simply go wrong, something will stop working until you restart them.

The point you probably knew I was making is that on initial release there are always issues. Apple were slammed so hard for the initial release of OSX, it was such a pile of crap that they gave away 10.1

Apple were slammed out of sight for the promises made with aperture, so hard they reduced the price by half, gave every one their money back and made it free for the next year for updates.

You cannot slam Naim because the front panel is a little laggy or not quite up to expectation, it's the first release give them a chance.

Good news about the upcoming ability to be able to add/delete cds from the touchscreen.

One usability tweak I would suggest would be to offer tabbed sections in the artist/album etc lists so that you can quickly get to who you want to play eg A-D E-K L-S T-Z on a quick access tab to cut down the amount of scrolling needed as it can be very cumbersome. I also notice when you page down with the TS and flash interface there is no overlap in the lists so that sometimes you struggle to get the one you want as it sometimes gaps over that artist/track onto a previous screen but it isn't always on the previous screen when you go back. It is the same with the flash interface as well as on the TS.

I also hope someone will address the playlist problem - ie you can't have more than 150 tracks played, it misses any added after the 150.

PS if you want a beta tester I usually find everything wrong with something and break it in new and interesting ways within minutes

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
Munch no doubt like you I have been using mac since the lat 80s. I love macs to bits, but they are still computers and far far from perfect, jolly good for you if your computers have never crashed in fours years your are to be congratulated.

I am not going to lie though, macs go wrong just like PCs, sadly macs don't crash though they simply go wrong, something will stop working until you restart them.

The point you probably knew I was making is that on initial release there are always issues. Apple were slammed so hard for the intial release of OSX, it was such a pile of crap that they gave away 10.1

Apple were slammed out of sight for the promises made with aperture, so hard they reduced the price by half, gave every one their money back and made it free for the next year for updates.

You cannot slam naim because the front panel is a little laggy or not quite up to expectation, its the first release give them a chance.

Great ! I look forward to Naim reducing the price of the HDX by half ! Anyway, why is it permissible to slam Apple out of sight but not Naim ? With the greatest respect Garyi, I don't know you from Adam yet you seem to be becoming a message board copper by the day... and your choice of noun needs some attention.


Done - also in quote.

Sheriff, I don't believe naim should be slammed out of sight for peoples personal preferences. If they had to make a device to suit everyone here they would have thousands of devices wouldn't they?

No one is a 'copper' (or indeed sherrif) here except the mods as far as I can tell. Just giving my opinion. Someone says they don't like the idea of the screen, I am saying I do like the idea of the screen.

Oh and computers in general are a pain in the arse.

Barrie, I take a different take on the TS.

Firstly it is not an expensive screen and adds a small amount to the cost. I have found it very useful when sitting around and ripping my initial round of 300 CDs to follow the rip so I could devote my time to making playlists or making database adjustments as necessary to better categorize my music on the DTC and to allow me to use the IP UI to just play and listen to music via my tablet PC.

Second, it's always nice to have a back-up in case something were to happen to my internet/intranet home network. So even though the TS really sees minimal usage overall, it is a useful feature.

Hi Gary,
I think we are in agreement about the screen, it is (should be) an inexpensive addition ( any idea how much ?) which is good for watching rips ( is the DTC not able to show this - maybe it's good feedback for the next update ) and it is a minimal use emergency back-up.
It is not an attractive simple easy to use interface - for that you need to add something else. It is worth also remembering that the HDX is not a 100 sterling software item it is a 4500 sterling "luxury" consumer item - whether we like that description or not. At this level of cost people do get a little picky
I think we basically are on the same page about the HDX in general, it's just that you put up with the shortfall - which is fine and I choose to comment on how they could be improved - which is also fine.
Cheers
Barrie

Barrie, yes you can follow rips on the IP UI or the DTC very easily. On the DTC it's just not as attractive since it's all wording like the rest of the DTC.

The TS is ok if you know exactly what you want to play and can go right to that CD, but it's not really good for searching, browsing since it works too slowly. I think as Paul said, cost, heat production and effect on sound from a more robust screen were the choices in deciding to go with the screen they chose.

Any computer based system is going to really need an additional device, HH, tablet etc..., to really provide the full functionality that a user wants. No small TS can accomplish that.

The current UI does have some issues and I hear Naim is working or has worked to correct much of this. I'm sure that it will take several updates to resolve all of the issues and Naim seems very receptive to feedback to get this right. As we know with all computer based things many issues come to light only after users find problems as they go forward. This does not give Naim a pass, but it is unfortunately the reality of this industry. Who knows how many beta testers there are.

Furthermore, and I can give direct experience with other software programs and UIs that are developed by "developers" who are not necessarily the "end users." Often the end users wind up being completely baffled by the way developers think about how end users want things to function as opposed to how the end users actually want things to function. Even something as what we would expect to be pretty staright forward as music mx and making playlists etc... And I can say that there software programs which people use in their businsses and depend upon for the running of their enterprises and are therefore more "essential" cost significantly more than the an HDX to purchase and implement.

Hi Gary,
I think your last paragraph say it all - very often, developers are not end users and the other people heavily involved with the project can all to easily become blind to product shortfalls in the excitement of developing a "cutting edge" solution and forget that the average person ( the customer ) on the street just wants to switch it on select the music easily and settle down to enjoy it.
Ref your beta tester comment, I'll bet a pound to a pinch of s**t that not many/nobody sat down for extended testing/listening sessions using just the UI to select, mix etc etc
Still - as you say not many things are perfect right out of the box and Naim does seem to be responsive to feedback which give me a lot of confidence that the initial gremlins will be resolved in one way or another - like supplying a good hand held IU in with the price ! The other more complex software can be run on the owners pc/MAC just as you have to now and as I/we already do with iTunes, so thats a non-issue in my (Mac)book
Barrie

quote:

that not many/nobody sat down for extended testing/listening sessions using just the UI to select, mix etc etc

Barrie this is not the case if you are talking about the hdx ui on the front panel, over 20 different people at different levels ( not all engineering)were full on over 8 months beta testing.

Thanks Paul,
Yes it was the HDX UI I was referring to, did the testers soley use the HDX UI or did they use other input aids.

Nice to hear they weren't all engineers - did you try with any customers or run customer clinics etc
Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:

quote:

that not many/nobody sat down for extended testing/listening sessions using just the UI to select, mix etc etc

Barrie this is not the case if you are talking about the hdx ui on the front panel, over 20 different people at different levels ( not all engineering)were full on over 8 months beta testing.

Really? Gosh ! Beta testing eh? And what were they doing precisely? If you'd given me the HDX UI ( oh how I love this technobabblecrap) I could have told you in 8 minutes it was, er, "off the pace" .

"full on"? full on what? what did they do and what was measured?

Who were these 20 poor souls? Come on, you've let the cat out of the bag so please do qualify your remarks with some definitive data.

I'm with sherrif on this. That tiny, slow, vague screen is bordering on pathetic. For a CAD$10,0000+ unit - I would expect a whole lot more.

I'm not slamming Naim. Just saying I would be put off buying an HDX by the poor touchscreen.

Saying that you can add something on by way of a tablet PC or other gadget just doesn't answer it for me. It needs to come with its own remote, complete with screen. The HDX is incomplete without one IMHO.

Sounds great, though.

I think you are being unfair on naim regarding the screen

firstly there is a cleaer decision of whether to have a screen or not in the product. If the answer is yes, then it has to fit on the front panel. Given the box height, its a good solution to the problem. Maybe there could be some hardware buttons too in the future -- a play/pause/stop/next/previous buttons would be easy to implement and might remove some of the fiddlyness. And would complement the screen well. However, would you go for a standard naim arrangement as per the cd players? if so, you would need to move the screen -- and an hdx is a tightly packed box.

if you have an external screen, then is it wired or wireless? if it is wireless then what technology? ethernet or bluetooth or proprietory or optical?


lets assume ethernet to keep the multiroom'ness working well and to allow for future amp control etc (for volume, routing etc)

then this device needs to be wireless, to remove the need for cables -- it must run off battery too.

we'd like a nice big screen to show lots of album data -- after all, this is not a single-cd system, it needs to show hundreds of cds. we would need a keyboard too for fast data searching, editing, management. and some sort of pointer.

and... we've just arrived at a laptop!

ok so naim needs to do a laptop -- err no. there is no way that naim can compete with the laptop manufacturers for price, so they have to buy someone else's and rebadge it. Except no laptop stays in production for more than 2 months now -- indeed production runs are often done in a few days and just warehoused.

ok, so naim could buy a bunch and warehouse them. The sales rate of HDX has been around 1000 so far (according to paul, hereabouts), so lets say a 2k/year run rate ongoing. Three years of laptops will be 6000 boxes costing a minumum of 200 quid each which is 1.2 million quid in stock and a big warehouse. And you are locked into a laptop design for 3 years despite the technology moving at a rapid rate. Nope, that doesnt work.

The only workable solution is for naim to press ahead as quickly as possible with a clean set of tools for a laptop using a cross platform toolset like flash.

And then leave it up to the punter to decide which laptop to buy

personally, i find the whole mini controller/nokia things to be frankly horrible - too small to be much better than the front screen, without all the benefits of a proper laptop device.

if you want a small laptop, look at the new mini-notebooks like EEEPC 901 or the dell mini (or a slew of others) which look, to my eyes, as being the best device for doing HDX (et alia) remote control at present.

but dont knock the built in display -- it does what it does given the size constraints, and we cannot expect miracles from it.

Hi Jon,

Nice post - interesting take out from the thread thus far.I think some of the questions you asked are no-brainers ( self-evident in terms of solution ) and some of your propositions ref computers/obsolescence, storage etc are obviously meant to "challenge" . I don't recall seeing any request for a Naim pc (and if there was one could you imagine the cost for having the Naim badge !!)

Firstly Naim is not a child who is being bullied, nor a puppy who is being mis-treated, and to whom we should be careful not to be "unfair" to, Naim is a BUSINESS. and as such succeeds on the basis of it's products and it's ability to fulfill customer expectations, there is no free lunch at the level of cost of the HDX or indeed many of the other items in the Naim range, and I am sure Naim are well aware of that fact, which is why they seem to want feedback
Many people on the various HDX threads seem to have drawn the conclusion that the in-built screen is a backup/emergency/comprimise/OK implemenatation, and again for many this is acceptable (myself included), most of us also accept that with any HD system we need some kind of computer for doing the more complex tasks - the thing which I see keep re-surfacing is why could the HDX have not been supplied with a decent T/S hand control (sonos type thing etc )as standard.
By the way if you want to see an easy remote which can manage the "hundreds of cd's" etc I suggest you go and look at an iTouch ( which is a web browser, and has a touchscreen and a virtual keyboard if you should need it, however as a pure remote you do not need a keyboard, nor pointer if your software is good) and it costs a little less than Naimnet solution.
I guess when they were doing the testing and had to use a Nokia 810 as a remote, somewhere in the project team bells should have gone off, but they didn't for whatever reason.
However to keep labouring my point, I think the HDX is a great attempt, it just missed on one area, and this can be easily solved by Naim if they choose to, or maybe it's easier to wait for Flash on the iTouch.
I'm ducking out of this thread now as it seems to have reached it end pointfor me.

1) Naim come up with a solution
2) We all go out and increase Nokias profits buying 810's
I am sure Naim will take into account all the feedback, and do what they can. The one thing I get the impression of with Naim is that they listen and are neither self righteous or arrogant.

......and I will still hopefully buy an HDX
Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:
I don't recall seeing any request for a Naim pc (and if there was one could you imagine the cost for having the Naim badge !!)

But it is a solution to the problem -- however, it simply isnt practicable.

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:
etc I suggest you go and look at an iTouch ( which is a web browser, and has a touchscreen and a virtual keyboard if you should need it, however as a pure remote you do not need a keyboard, nor pointer if your software is good) and it costs a little less than Naimnet solution.
I guess when they were doing the testing and had to use a Nokia 810 as a remote, somewhere in the project team bells should have gone off, but they didn't for whatever reason.
However to keep labouring my point, I think the HDX is a great attempt, it just missed on one area, and this can be easily solved by Naim if they choose to, or maybe it's easier to wait for Flash on the iTouch.

I assume you mean ipod touch running Remote? Its adequate, but no way good enough. Something with 4 times the screen area would be a big improvement.

And I'm still not holding my breath for Flash for ipod/iphone.

Google maps works on my iPhone, I can manage a Unix System, perform network diagnostics and browse photos.

IMO the screen size is more than adequate for easily browsing through a music library.

Again - just my opinion.

sherrif and candy, dont agree with your post sorry, I am not sure about your individual capabilities Sherrif so I cannot comment but if you cannot imagine the work on the ui then you are indeed being very naive and have no idea of the complexities for the data and ui.
If ever you are down this way, drop in, I am sure the guys would like to explain to you in person


oh sherrif almost missed this.. your control choice

"I have connected the macbook to the telly with a vga cable( so the telly becomes a monitor) and then use a bluetooth mouse to control itunes on the telly ! I can sit wherever I like with mouse in hand and control itunes."

How cool I know..., well you can do that with the hdx and have a decent sound as well (if thats your interest), and use the remote control from the hdx and connect hdx to your tv.

"It is far the most enjoyable and the most intuitive equipment to use of this category. It is a real happiness to navigate in its menu via its touch screen and its classification possibilities are impressive. In this point of view we actually have the impression that we only touch the surface of all its possibilities during our tests and the writing of this review. It is obvious that its designers worked a lot before releasing it to the market. But they can be sure that the result is excellent, even if unfortunately the price is still very muscular. So now it has to be the audiophiles and the passionate music lovers who need to be ready to jump into the 'virtual' music without physical support. And that's where the real challenge of this excellent innovative equipment."

Just in from Haute Fidelite France,(please excuse direct english translation, it does have its charm) see they like the ui!its a personal thing some will, some won't, sorry you don't.

Is that your hitherto unheard of fluency in French coming to the fore there, Paul, or a Babelfish translation?

Connecting a HDX to a telly is not the answer to my mind. I don't want the television on whenever I listen to music. That big screen is distracting and it uses lots of power to run.

A small iphone sized screen that comes on when i touch a button, allows me to select my choices then after a few seconds goes off. Now that sounds convenient and elegant and worthy of a high end user interface. HDX should be high end in audio performance and in its user interface. My CD5x does it with a humble remote and the display on the player with the nice big numbers (that a 40 year old can read) which go out after I have made my selection.

I don't see the point of Paul's post above. Maybe the screen works a treat. Fine, but its on the machine which is too far way for me to read even if I can operate it with the remote.

I guess Naim's issue is that they have a product that they need to shift and it does not have what I and some others would like to see in regard to a hand held user interface. We have seen what can be done with the humble phone/ipod. Our level of expectation with hard drive music accessiblity and user friendlyness has been set. And of course the customer is always correct.

I'll be sticking with my 5x for now. Fortunately it is sounding wonderful tonight, thanks Mr Naim, full marks for that one.