P9 versus LP12 - discuss...
Posted by: Top Cat on 25 May 2001
Ta,
John
After your near heart attack inducing experience, you are in the fortunate position of being able to start from scratch when buying the next TT.
The LP12 is ok....thats all it is and the Rega is good but eccentric looking.
Have you considered buying a Garrard 401 which has been overhauled and housed in a Loricraft Plinth. Total cost of this would be £800 ish.
The sound is excellent and the only reason why people dont buy these units is that they have never had the opportunity to hear them.
They are ultra reliable and don't need special stands / set up and they go on forever. A friend of mine has been using his for 30 years and it's still going strong. It has never gone wrong or been serviced other than a drop of oil on the spindle bearing once every couple of years.
I have one and I have never regretted buying it.
Regards
Mick
quote:
The P9 figures highly in my plans, but I can't hear one (apparently they are being enhanced right now) so can someone give the lowdown so I can get a feeling for what they do well and what they do not so well...
Ok, I’ve owned both (plus a Xerxes for good measure), so here is my take on the LP12 vs P9 debate.
P9 – What it does well is pitch, tune and time. I have never heard a deck time as well as a P9, when set up right and on a good stand it starts and stops notes incredibly well, and has a ability to groove that any CD player would die for. There is none of the added warmth that the LP12 brings to the picture, the Rega is far leaner, cleaner and tighter, and possibly more dynamic. The downside is it can sound a little thin if not partnered well, and it can on occasions be a little over analytical in exposing poor recording techniques. It is however an absolute bargain, I chose mine in a direct dem against a LP12 / Aro / Armageddon. A tough call, but certainly the more accurate sounding deck. In some ways the Rega sounds ‘pre-Mana’d’ i.e. sounds like an LP12 on about phase 2 before you start.
LP12 – Big, fun, and really solid sounding. What ever record is placed on the LP12 gets remixed to some extent, it is very obviously coloured, and it does timing its way. The problem is that it sounds really good, definitely wrong, but really good. The obvious things about its character is the tonal balance (even with the horrible baseboard removed) has a bass hump, a slightly recessed mid and slightly bright top end – all a bit “loudness button”. Its also a bit murky by comparison. There is something very user friendly about the LP12s presentation, it just gets on and does its stuff.
The bottom line is that I really like both decks, and I am actually still not sure which I want to own. On the right records no LP12 can touch the P9, but on other stuff I miss its incorrect but friendly presentation. I am moving to my new flat this coming week, so my P9 is all boxed up at the moment. I will have to reset everything up, and balance everything to the new room before reassessing the deck decision.
Tony.
I'd like to give you an unequivocal, straightforward and, therefore, dogmatic answer like, "Get a p9, it's a cracker," but life and hi-fi ain't that easy.
If you went by what people say about Linn Kans, for example, you'd be certain that no speaker under 2.5k UKP even comes close. But the fact that you've heard Kans and don't own a pair proves that no single product -- however good it might be -- will be "it" for everyone.
I had a fully spec'd Linn LP12 and in a direct comparison in my system and several others (just to make sure I wasn't deluding myself) I chose the p9. So, bye-bye Linn, hello Rega. But several people on this forum have made similar comparisons and have kept or bought LP12s. So, who's right?
It comes down to what you value in hi-fi reproduction -- and that's exactly what it is... a reproduction of music.
Compared with an LP12 (and I understand that the many arm, cartridge and power supply combos precludes such a thing as a single LP12 persona), I think the p9 is more tonally and temporally neutral. To my ears the LP12 reorchestrates the the tone and timing of the music, although in a very pleasant and appealing way. In certain systems and with certain records, I prefer the LP12. But on balance I don't.
You'll have to do the LP12/p9 comparison yourself, but if you do I can't stress enough the need to mount a decent MC cartridge on the p9. Vuk, Tony, Kevin, Scott Naylor and I have all found that the p9 demands a decent moving coil cartridge to show its goods. (I don't want to open that can of worms about which cartridge is "best" but I think we all agree that the p9 demands something better than the standard Rega MM variety.)
So, do the showdown. I hear that Frank's shop is well-equiped to do LP12/p9 dems with more decent cartridges than I could ever hope to hear in my widlest dreams.
Good luck.
Joe
[This message was edited by Joe Petrik on SUNDAY 27 May 2001 at 16:18.]
OK--now that the P9 lovefest/LP12 bashing is over, here is where the LP12 is better than the P9: 1. It plays in tune (yeah, has to be set up right). 2. Scale is better--the P9 sounds small--spatially and dynamically--the LP12 does a wider range of dynamics. 3. Timing--the P9 is what imposes it's own version of timing on records, not the other way round. The LP12 is capable of showing a wider range in timing differences than the P9, which tends to sound metronomic whether it should or not.
All those are based on a P9 vs LP12/Aro/Armageddon. Another table to consider is the Xerxes X, which to my ears does a lot of stuff better than either but which ultimately lacks the ability to reproduce soul.
YMMV--others obviously differ, but it is interesting that I can't think of anyone with a big system using a P9 (I mean like NBL/DBL etc).
Cheers,
Bob
Ride the Light !
quote:
...now that the P9 lovefest/LP12 bashing is over...
Not sure how you gleaned that from the comments written thus far. Phil said he prefered his LP12, Mick said the LP12 and p9 are OK but would rather have a Garrard, Tony said he really likes both decks but leans toward the p9, and I said I'd take a p9 over an LP12 but stessed John should make up his own mind based on a dem. That's hardly a p9 lovefest or LP12 bashing.
quote:
it is interesting that I can't think of anyone with a big system using a P9 (I mean like NBL/DBL etc)
That's because some of us prefer to put the money where it matters most: source first.
Joe
You obviously missed my invisible and all powerful smilie æ
Cheers,
Bob
Ride the Light !o
Ps The entry level Well Tempered 'Record Player' is about 2k ish..
Cheers
Goose
thanks
If you *must* buy new, the P9 is a bargain.
If you are willing to buy 2nd-hand, well an LP12 is hard to beat. At least I haven't seen too many 2nd-hand P9's around.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
John (who is looking forward to hearing a P9!)
quote:
I thought the P9 had an offboard PSU, or is that the new P9 that is due in the autumn?
John,
The p9 comes with a dedicated external power supply. The p9 will not work without it and, as far as I know, the supply unit will not power any other table, Rega or not.
Unless Rega has completely redesigned the table and supply, the combo looks this:
FYI: The table's outer plinth is available in several (interchangeable) solid woods, and the mat is available in several colours. Not that I'm a fashion hound, but it is kinda cool that you can alter the table's appearance for relatively low cost if your system or decor changes.
Joe
It'll be interesting to hear how you get on. Of course, a major change in front end now, will likely shift the balance of your system - you may end up wanting a pre, or power, or speaker change.... be sure you hear it in the reference system of your choice, as well as your own system.
HTH
Rico - all your base are belong to us.
quote:
Or you'll find it replaces your favourite drummer with a drum machine, such is it's timing ability.
I absolutely disagree with the comments regarding the P9 making timing “drum machine” like. It plays stuff ultra tight and metronomic if that is what is on the record, alternately it portrays a gentle swing if that is what is on the record. Some drummers are capable of ultra tight and metronomic playing, that is a simple fact. A LP12 portrays a nice gentle swing regardless of what is on the record. I love LP12s, though to argue they beat a P9 on timing is to fundamentally misunderstand the whole timing concept. If the LP12 times right, then every other turntable or master tape on the planet is wrong. The LP12 times pleasantly, not correctly. If you want everything to have a shuffle, then the LP12 is the deck for you.
I agree with the Roksan theory that suspended subchassis decks do slightly slur timing due to transient wow. I will attempt to paraphrase from memory:- A subchassis is always being pulled in the direction of the motor, and there is inevitably a degree of compliance in the springs so it is never static, a factor of that compliance is dictated by the (variable) drag of the cartridge. When the cartridge hits a very heavily modulated part of the groove the physical resistance between the motor and platter changes, thus moving the subchassis very slightly against its springs. Effectively the speed drops very slightly on transients. Bottom line: a subchassis deck can never work correctly from a pitch or timing perspective as even the theory is flawed.
Non suspended decks such as a Rega or Nottingham Analogue simply can not suffer from this artefact, and as a result are able to time far more accurately. A while ago a drummer friend of mine was really disappointed to hear how “off” some of his drumming was when he heard it on the P9, he knew he had been very nervous in the studio, though was under the impression that he had got away with it as the monitoring rig obviously wasn’t able to reproduce such subtle clues. The P9 plays things as they are, you may not like what you hear.
Tony.
quote:
I agree with the Roksan theory that suspended subchassis decks do slightly slur timing due to transient wow
So do I. And I can now hear this effect on bouncy turntables.
Like Tony, my preferences in listening are somewhat timing driven, so this is one of the reasons I fell out with the Linn (and also the fact that it sounded good only 50% of the time and not so good the other 50%)
This is an excellent discussion, btw.
Dev
One notable observation with the Voyd is that records which had swing on the LP12, no longer have any or as much swing with the Voyd. Objectivity tells me now that these records probably were not meant to swing. On the other hand, records that were meant to swing really rock on the Voyd.
With regard to metronomic like drumming, I have noticed this on the Voyd. I do not attribute this to the Voyd, but to the skill or style of the drummer.
These are just preliminary observations. I have not spent enough time with the Voyd yet to reach any conclusions. In fact, I find the unique sound of the Linn to be a hard addiction to shake off after an 18 year habit. Only time will tell, but the Voyd sure makes for excellent detox!
The other thing I think the p9 does right is bass, and not just its timing but also its pitch definition and intensity relative to the rest of the mix.
When Joel B. visited last month he mentioned that Neil Young's "Can't believe you're lyin'" is a particularly good track to show differences between the abilities of various tables to do bass right. Interesting that he specifically mentioned that song. Although I decided to switch to the p9 after a week-long home dem playing many different genres, I have to admit that that cut helped sway me.
Another thing worth mentioning is that I wasn't looking for a new table or felt that my LP12's preformance was deficient. I was very happy with it and was the closest thing to a Linn nazi this side of the Atlantic. But the local Rega rep dropped off his p9 at my place with these simple instructions: "Give it a spin. Tell me what you think." It was spun. I bought one.
Obviously, we all value different things in hi-fi, so no one product will fit all customers. But I think you do yourself a disservice if you don't put the p9 on the short list. If you don't like it, buy something else.
Joe
A cartridge tracks at about 2g downforce. A heavily modulated section of the record causes an impulse of 2g x armlength. You can work out what the true strength of these forces are, but they're always in milliNewtonMetres, if that high. But considering that the mass of the suspension system is many orders (thousands of times) more than the impulse of a heavy modulation, it seems unlikely that it would cause yaw in the system. Add that you don't have a perfect coupling between record, mat and platter, and that there's also the more compliant belt in the way and the effect of the heavy modulation on the suspension system must be vanishingly small. This is why suspension systems work at all.
Having said all that, there are some systems (VPI, Voyd) which use either multi-motor designs or multi-pillar designs where the belt is held by three points at equal distances around the (sub-)platter. The effect of this is to have less belt in direct contact with the platter and to have no dragging of the platter in any direction.
Aw heck maybe the modulations do have an effect - what do I know?
Regards,
Frank.
I also thought the Phono.. has much better detail retrieval than the Linn.
But and this is a big but, the Phonosophy was definately brighter than the Linn and with an Arkiv B the top end was just a bit to insistant for my liking.
The new owner has it with my old Troika has when I last heard from him he loves it and feels that a warmish cart is the way to go with the P3.
My feeling having owned the WT and heard some of the Notts Analogue things is that massive unsuspended designs are the way to go. "musical" = "colourations" in bouncy bouncy decks.
Dev
the rockport is direct drive and massively constructed with an air suspension to boot which lends weight to the your argument.
i rather suspect however that it is a combination of al the things discussed here (and some other things that we haven't talked about - eg clamping, arm design) and how they interact wiht each other.
but i am not a turntable desginer and have no clue merely theories!
cheers
dev
ps. i still say WT smokes a Linn, P9 or whatever!
was it John Bicht (sp?) the american who started versalabs or something - just a guess
dev
ps when i move down to london in two months come round and have a listen to the wt
whos heard one? how was it designed? what happened to it?
cheers
dev
ps. maybe we should rename this forum the alternative analogue addicts forum - i am at a loss for words to describe some of the obscure stuff that is written there.
kisses
dev