P9 versus LP12 - discuss...
Posted by: Top Cat on 25 May 2001
Ta,
John
and Mr P
quote:
Think I'll drop my LP12
Don't forget the insurance part of your equation
On the other hand, I am very familiar with what the LP12/Aro/Lingo combination can do, and so I will be best placed to decide for myself which is better.
Agree, though; good discussion!
John
LP versus MASTERTAPE
This review was taken from a certain Keith Yates:
I was a displaying, stocking dealer for the LP12, Michell Gyrodec,
Goldmund, etc. during most of the 1980s. I successfully mated the Zeta
arm (rather heavy) to the LP12 without any noticeable distortion to
the Linn "bounce." I conducted a little experiment to see which of the
tables got closest to what was really "on the record." I started up an
audiophile record company, Audio Verite Recordings, and recorded a
classical guitarist using spaced omnis in a good hall. I flew down to
the Mastering Lab in LA, and had one of the top pressing houses make
1000 LPs on the best, thickest vinyl available. I now had the master
tape and immaculate pressings. I'd set up the Linns (1 with an Ittok,
1 with a Zeta), the Gyrodec (which had two arms mounted, an Ittok and
a Zeta), and the Goldmund with Goldmund arm. I splurged, mounting the
same model cartridges on all arms: Koetsu Black Gold Lines mostly, but
also Grace F9Es on other rounds. (With the Graces, I used the same
stylus on all.)
I used to invite audiophile customers to the soundroom on Thursday
nights for a little blind A-B testing. I'd switch from the master tape
to the LP; the point was, whichever table/arm/cartridge combo sounded
most like the master tape "won" the competition. And the winner was
... the Gyrodec/Zeta darn near every time. (I tried the SME V on the
Gyrodec, too, and it sometimes edged out the Zeta, but I never opened
up enough SME Vs to A-B them on the Linn and Gyrodec.) At first the
Gyrodec's ascendancy surprised me (I would have put my money on the
Linn), but began to make sense as I thought about its design. (I'd
previously thought of it as a very good turntable, but suspected it
wasn't as "serious" a performer as the Linn and Goldmund.)
Again, my tests, which ran off and on for several years, were not set
up methodologically to yield "dispository" results, but, after all
those sessions over all that time, with lots of expensive arms and
cartridges, I am left with a deep respect for the basic soundness of
the Gyrodec's design. Anyone else?
--Keith
P.S. We also tried other arms--Eminent Technology, Sumiko The Arm,
etc., but rarely had 2 of them to do simultaneous A-Bs. Would love to
try a Wilson Benesch on a Gyrodec or SME table someday!
I would urge you to evaluate all options at this price level as mistakes could be costly. Of course you can better a Gyro with Michell's ultimate creation - the Orbe.
Jonathan
quote:
whos heard one? how was it designed? what happened to it?
I had an Elite Rock before it was renamed the Townshend Rock. I used it with a Rega RB300 and initially a Goldring cartridge whose name I have forgotten - something like G900 IGC or G910 IGC...
It was a heavy deck with no subchassis, and three half squash balls for feet. The one I demmed had a metal platter and body, both of which were filled with some damping material - I can't remember what. My Rock came with a plastic platter, which was filled with the same heavy damping material as its predecessor. The Rock also came with a record clamp but, like all record clamps that I've heard, it had a detrimental effect on the sound. It was belt driven by a circular cross-section belt. Later versions, I think, had more sophisticated suspension arrangements instead of the half squash balls, and a specially designed arm - I never saw or heard one of these.
When used with its silicone arm-damping trough, the Rock produced well-focused stereo images, a very black background and virtually no extraneous noise but it robbed music of emotion. I ended up using it without the damping trough and with a felt record mat. I also experimented with a home-made arm board. In this configuration, it was almost as good as a Rega Planar 3 - but background noise was less obtrusive.
It was a great relief when I sold it, and bought an LP12/Basik/K9. 16 years later I'm still using the same K9!
--Jeremy
quote:
This review was taken from a certain Keith Yates:
Off-track, I know, but I remember visiting Mr. Yates' store in Northern California as a rather wonderful sonic respite back in my university years.
I need to temper that with the ill repute into which he fell after he took money for customer orders and received items on credit while preparing for bankruptcy, right up to the day that he declared. A friend of mine had a chance to bid on his leftover stock as he was owed some money.
He appears every now and then as some kind of a freelance reviewer for this magazine or that. Dunno what reputation he has in those circles, but it's not good around here...
Cheers
Keith.
I don't know the guy so can't comment on his business integrity but I have to admit that this comparison to the master-tape sounds like the only true method for assessing a deck's inherent neutrality and ability to accurately transcribe the vinyl signal which is a prerequisite for high fidelity.
I don't want euphonic coluration I just want neutrality, transparency, stability and realistic dynamics. I don't think even the LP12's greatest supporters would try and argue it provides a terribly neutral (and hence accurate) reproduction of the musical event - it is without doubt highly enjoyable though.
I think there's a tendency on this forum to imply that it's a two horse race (Rega and Linn) and my point is that it is far from that - it all depends on one's musical priorities. From my point of view the Michell is far ahead of the Linn in convincing me I'm hearing a live event. I can also point to a number of reviews which have indicated the same. I can't comment on the relative merits of the P9 having only heard it in Kevin Hughes system where it sounded very good.
Jonathan
quote:
...this comparison to the master-tape sounds like the only true method for assessing a deck's inherent neutrality and ability to accurately transcribe the vinyl signal which is a prerequisite for high fidelity.
While I agree that comparison with the master-tape can be useful, if someone is trying to decide which of two decks they prefer then there's no guarantee that a master-tape will help.
For example, if the listener is using frequency response, coloration levels and background noise as the criteria for deciding which is closer to the master-tape, then their idea of which deck sounds closer to the master tape may well differ from other people's.
Things would be a lot easier if the performance of a deck could be described in terms of a single dimension...
--Jeremy
cheers
Nigel
quote:
It might also be the case that some people prefer something which is not an accurate rendition of the master tape. Enjoyment is not always found in accurate reproduction.
The point is, there's no objective way of determining which provides the most accurate rendition of the master tape - unless one deck is indistinguishable from the master tape.
--Jeremy
quote:
I don't know the guy so can't comment on his business integrity but I have to admit that this comparison to the master-tape sounds like the only true method for assessing a deck's inherent neutrality and ability to accurately transcribe the vinyl signal which is a prerequisite for high fidelity.
You're absolutely right in this regard. I remember that he basically carried only three turntables - Systemdek, Linn and the Michel.
I need note that he sold far more Linn tt's than the other two put together.
I actually miss the fellow, business integrity/acumen/whatever withstanding. He was an engaging dealer, loved what he did, and actively tried to contribute to his customers' music education with his newsletters and live concerts (usually quartets and trios) in his cozy shop. We were more wannabes than serious customers at the time, yet he treated just about as well as someone that had dropped serious dime on the latest Levinson in a previous visit. Gotta respect that. My previous posting was a trifle harsh.
I lusted after the Gyro/Zeta combo but it was far too expensive for me at the time. What intrigues me is that the price I remember doesn't seem to be much less than what Michel are currently charging...
Enjoy your hunt.
Keith.
One of the interesting things about Michell is that he never exploits his market position - the Gyro was £595 when launched in 1983 if memory serves and it's still only around £900 now.
I often wonder if its low price relative to the equivalent competition causes it to be undervalued.
A craftsman not a businessman.
Jonathan
quote:
One of the interesting things about Michell is that he never exploits his market position - the Gyro was £595 when launched in 1983 if memory serves and it's still only around £900 now.
YOu're probably right, although there are very few manufacturers that base price more on the actual manufacturing cost rather than the market. Ivor in the latest interview indicates that Linn do that, but I have a little trouble believing it when I look at the inside of an LK140 (although the inside is jewel quality and the amp's musical delivery is just fine, thank you).
I was first a college student and then a low-paid grad at the time that my buddies and I visited the shop, so the price for a Gyro plus one of those gorgeous Zeta arms was quite steep.
I had instead managed to get a 1978 LP12 and get it fixed up to snuff by one of his employees that used to build LP12s for Linn. A variation on "source first", with regards to product knowledge.
That I bought the deck from someone else and yet they tweaked it for free as a part of purchasing a $120 Denon cartridge from them really impressed me. Then again, maybe that's why he eventually went out of business...
Actualy, the Michel I would be intested in hearing is the Orbe. There's something about it that makes the Gyro look flashy.
Let us know how you get along.
Cheers
Keith.
More importantly, listening to solo piano will not tell you how a table will do at dealing with bass heavy rock recordings, unraveling polyrhythms or anything else loud and complex, handling the power of drums, or other things that I consider important. Most audiophile components sound decent with simple sounds-but many lose it with anything more complex than Diana Krall's voice.
--Eri
I think this whole thread shows how subjective all this is. Some prefer the LP12, some the P9, some the Roksan, etc. At the end of the day the "right" choice is whatever gives you the most pleasure.
Good luck and sorry to hear about your misfortune.
Cheers,
Bob
Ride the Light !