Naim DC1 Direction
Posted by: Holty on 22 August 2010
Is there a direction for this cable? like the SNAICs?
Posted on: 23 August 2010 by JYOW
Interesting read. Appreciate Julian's honesty of saying "I don't know".
For me, I would stick to my believe when it comes to cable direction, whcih is "it doesn't matter"
For me, I would stick to my believe when it comes to cable direction, whcih is "it doesn't matter"
Posted on: 23 August 2010 by rich46
quote:Originally posted by js:They mark them all for good reason but they don't use it as 'marketing'.quote:Originally posted by BigH47:quote:Naim doesn't even market the direction of the HiLine which is constructed in a way that requires direction from a sheilding standpoint.
It does mark the direction though.
all this mystic about cables is to give the idea there is something different if you buy that cable
Posted on: 23 August 2010 by pcstockton
quote:Why get defensive over all things Naim? I have been with Naim for longer than I can remember, but I try not to treat it as a religion.
I am not singling out Naim in any fashion. EVERY mfr i know of shows directionality on their cables. I would actually expect Naim to go against the grain here (pun intended) but they dont. Hmmmmmmm maybe there is something there.
What cable mfr out there dont specify direction? I would love to know.
(i will expect zero replies to that question)
Posted on: 23 August 2010 by pcstockton
quote:For me, I would stick to my believe when it comes to cable direction, whcih is "it doesn't matter"
Funny.... I will stick with "my ears will tell me which way is better"
Posted on: 23 August 2010 by pcstockton
quote:especially for one as reputable as Naim
Now who is treating companies like a religion? Why are they any different than anyone else. They are a hifi mfr period. We like their gears. It isnt all that different from anyone else.
Posted on: 23 August 2010 by pcstockton
quote:Why get defensive over all things Naim?
So.... do you (would you) not follow the directionality of a hiline? Would you even care to A/B it? Or would simply hook it up as recommended and trust the arrows on the cable?
Honestly, EVERY cable I have ever owned had some arrows on it. I followed their direction. Never thought about it... Never tested it the other way. Thats why I pay big money for gear. Because they do the work for you.
Like I know more then they do. Do you? Maybe you should make cables?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
My ears are not that good. And I cannot tell the difference.
Or stick with what naim tells me which way is better?
I actually do that whenever practical because i cannot for the life of me tell the difference, so might as well do it their way.
But can YOU tell the difference? Or it is just your nature to act like white blood cell whenever someone ask questions?
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:
Funny.... I will stick with "my ears will tell me which way is better"
Or stick with what naim tells me which way is better?
I actually do that whenever practical because i cannot for the life of me tell the difference, so might as well do it their way.
But can YOU tell the difference? Or it is just your nature to act like white blood cell whenever someone ask questions?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by John R.
Take a look how the metal part (not the insulation) of a cable is produced and than you might get an idea why cables do have a direction. And I can hear this direction clearly and so do many other people and not only Naimees. But if you can not hear a difference it is fine, too, but do not say that we are fools hearing a difference. Next step would be that all cables sound the same 
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:
So.... do you (would you) not follow the directionality of a hiline? Would you even care to A/B it? Or would simply hook it up as recommended and trust the arrows on the cable?
Actually being stupid (or lazy), I did own a RCA to DIN Hi-Line and used it the other way around. I asked in this board if and how it would be different and did not get a clear answer. So I just stuck with what's available.
quote:Honestly, EVERY cable I have ever owned had some arrows on it. I followed their direction. Never thought about it... Never tested it the other way. Thats why I pay big money for gear. Because they do the work for you.
Like I know more then they do. Do you? Maybe you should make cables?
I don't know. But that's why I am interested to know what the logic is. Is that too much to ask?
And why is this about me?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by John R.:
Take a look how the metal part (not the insulation) of a cable is produced and than you might get an idea why cables do have a direction. And I can hear this direction clearly and so do many other people and not only Naimees.
But according to Julian it had something to do with the insulation.
quote:But if you can not hear a difference it is fine, too, but do not say that we are fools hearing a difference. Next step would be that all cables sound the same
Who mentioned something about fools? A few of us just asked what the logic is, that's all. Not meant to be a trap. Or does everything about audio have to be an enigma?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:quote:especially for one as reputable as Naim
Now who is treating companies like a religion? Why are they any different than anyone else. They are a hifi mfr period. We like their gears. It isnt all that different from anyone else.
We all like products from this company. I trust them more than most other audio makers. And that is the exact reason why I tend to expect more from them.
But does it mean I go all defensive over any criticisms or even questions? Did Naim hire me to be theie defender? Nope
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by likesmusic
Maybe it's just really rubbish cable with badly made connections, and every time you disconnect and reconnect it the soldered joints get weaker and noisier and the screening breaks more.
A good digital cable should not be directional.
Good digital equipment should not be affected by which way round a good digital cable is used to connect it.
The Naim DAC is claimed to be largely immune to jitter on the input stream, yet here were are being told that it is nonetheless sensitive to the direction of the s/pdif cables.
Do different DC1 cables from the same batch sound different?
Do different DC1 cables from different batches sound different?
Why should the preferred direction of DC1 be consistent for the whole reel? If you don't know what is causing the directionality, shouldn't Naim listen to each individual DC1 before marking it?
Does the directionality change with time?
A good digital cable should not be directional.
Good digital equipment should not be affected by which way round a good digital cable is used to connect it.
The Naim DAC is claimed to be largely immune to jitter on the input stream, yet here were are being told that it is nonetheless sensitive to the direction of the s/pdif cables.
Do different DC1 cables from the same batch sound different?
Do different DC1 cables from different batches sound different?
Why should the preferred direction of DC1 be consistent for the whole reel? If you don't know what is causing the directionality, shouldn't Naim listen to each individual DC1 before marking it?
Does the directionality change with time?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:
So.... do you (would you) not follow the directionality of a hiline? Would you even care to A/B it?
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:
Funny.... I will stick with "my ears will tell me which way is better"
quote:Originally posted by pcstockton:
Honestly, EVERY cable I have ever owned had some arrows on it. I followed their direction. Never thought about it... Never tested it the other way. Thats why I pay big money for gear. Because they do the work for you.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by likesmusic:
Do different DC1 cables from the same batch sound different?
Do different DC1 cables from different batches sound different?
Why should the preferred direction of DC1 be consistent for the whole reel? If you don't know what is causing the directionality, shouldn't Naim listen to each individual DC1 before marking it?
Does the directionality change with time?
Sorry likesmusic, you lose. You are not allowed to ask questions here. people don't like you when you do that.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by Richard Dane
Likesmusic,
in each case of a new batch of cable, whether it be DC1, interconnect, Burndy, or whatever, some representative lengths are first cut from the reel (noting the notional direction very carefully) and made into test leads. They are then given to Roy George who listens to them - a couple of samples in one direction and a couple in the opposite direction. From this, Roy can very consistently determine the "right" direction of the cable. By "right direction" I mean the direction that is preferred by Naim.
Due to the way the cables are made, each batch should be entirely consistent for direction but the samples are taken at various points to be sure.
Speaker cable is a big problem due to the fact that the manufacturer has to print the direction on the outer insulation. There are very specific instructions and processes monitored by Naim at the manufacturer to ensure the direction is consistent, however, mistakes have been known in the past, and after listening (as above), entire batches of 1000m or more have had to be scrapped. Thankfully this is a rare occurrence.
in each case of a new batch of cable, whether it be DC1, interconnect, Burndy, or whatever, some representative lengths are first cut from the reel (noting the notional direction very carefully) and made into test leads. They are then given to Roy George who listens to them - a couple of samples in one direction and a couple in the opposite direction. From this, Roy can very consistently determine the "right" direction of the cable. By "right direction" I mean the direction that is preferred by Naim.
Due to the way the cables are made, each batch should be entirely consistent for direction but the samples are taken at various points to be sure.
Speaker cable is a big problem due to the fact that the manufacturer has to print the direction on the outer insulation. There are very specific instructions and processes monitored by Naim at the manufacturer to ensure the direction is consistent, however, mistakes have been known in the past, and after listening (as above), entire batches of 1000m or more have had to be scrapped. Thankfully this is a rare occurrence.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by Richard Dane
quote:Originally posted by JYOW:
Sorry likesmusic, you lose. You are not allowed to ask questions here. people don't like you when you do that.
JYOW, hopefully you are kidding here? Perhaps the reality is that not everyone likes the answer sometimes?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by PureHifi
Thank you for clarifying the effort and method that naim go to, not just R & D, but also ongoing quality control.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
quote:Originally posted by Richard Dane:quote:Originally posted by JYOW:
Sorry likesmusic, you lose. You are not allowed to ask questions here. people don't like you when you do that.
JYOW, hopefully you are kidding here? Perhaps the reality is that not everyone likes the answer sometimes?
Yes just kidding of course.
But am really impressed by the vigorous response by the some natives when some of us are curious and ask non-rhetorical questions.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by John R.
And I am bored by people asking the very same questions about cable direction, cable length, pp again and again. If you are so interested in the topic of cable direction there are a lot of interesting sites around the world wide web... just spent an evening using google and you will get an idea about cable direction and I am talking about technical explanations and not audio forum wisdom here.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
Sure you are entitled to your opinion
I actually learnt from Julian and Richard's post that naim's directionality is based on listening and they do not pretend to understand the mechanics of it.
Other makers have various technical explanation of it, which may or may not be relevant to naim gears.
Why read it so far down the thread if you are so bored though?
I actually learnt from Julian and Richard's post that naim's directionality is based on listening and they do not pretend to understand the mechanics of it.
Other makers have various technical explanation of it, which may or may not be relevant to naim gears.
Why read it so far down the thread if you are so bored though?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by likesmusic
Richard Dane
Do two DC1 cables from different batches sound the same or different when used with a Naim DAC?
Do two DC1 cables from different batches sound the same or different when used with a Naim DAC?
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by Richard Dane
JYOW,
I'm not sure about "not pretending" to understand, after all Julian Vereker has expounded his own theory as to why cables may be directional (Without delving back through my files as I'm currently away from home, something to do with when the cable is extruded and the insulation applied), but theory apart, the listening is the most important thing.
Likesmusic,
without an opportunity to actually try this (I'm not based at the factory) I can only speculate based upon my own experience - in this case with old ones from when it was launched as the ideal digital link between DVD5 and AV2. In this case, where I have compared, differences are nigh on imperceptible. This is what I would expect.
I did omit one very important process above, and that is the fact that in all cables cases there is a reference against which any new cables are compared to ensure consistency.
I'm not sure about "not pretending" to understand, after all Julian Vereker has expounded his own theory as to why cables may be directional (Without delving back through my files as I'm currently away from home, something to do with when the cable is extruded and the insulation applied), but theory apart, the listening is the most important thing.
Likesmusic,
without an opportunity to actually try this (I'm not based at the factory) I can only speculate based upon my own experience - in this case with old ones from when it was launched as the ideal digital link between DVD5 and AV2. In this case, where I have compared, differences are nigh on imperceptible. This is what I would expect.
I did omit one very important process above, and that is the fact that in all cables cases there is a reference against which any new cables are compared to ensure consistency.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by js
I just don't understand why folks get so agressive and demanding on these topics. If you're more comfortable not paying attention to direction, don't unless there's a unique grounding arangement that may require it. I don't think any of us that pay attention to direction or cable length etc. care what you do for yourselves as long as you're happy. It seems as though you're not happy until we're not happy. 
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
Richard,
My statement wasn't meant to be sarcastic or condescending at ell.
From the quoted post Julian claimed he did not know of a way to measure the directionality of cables.
And that he only "suspected" the hot plastic insulation anneals copper in some way.
Which is fine with me. There are many things that we do not know about.
Also you yourself stated that cables directionality for Naim was determined by listening.
Both are OK. At least we know that some customer could have a different view and like the cable direction the other way around, or like me who cannot hear any difference, so might as well stick with what the Naim expert preferred.
My statement wasn't meant to be sarcastic or condescending at ell.
From the quoted post Julian claimed he did not know of a way to measure the directionality of cables.
And that he only "suspected" the hot plastic insulation anneals copper in some way.
Which is fine with me. There are many things that we do not know about.
Also you yourself stated that cables directionality for Naim was determined by listening.
Both are OK. At least we know that some customer could have a different view and like the cable direction the other way around, or like me who cannot hear any difference, so might as well stick with what the Naim expert preferred.
Posted on: 24 August 2010 by JYOW
js
Who demanded answers, definitely no one demanded that sort of "answers".
I am just not happy with the predictability of people jumping in whenever others ask question, most times not even questioning, about Naim.
Who demanded answers, definitely no one demanded that sort of "answers".
I am just not happy with the predictability of people jumping in whenever others ask question, most times not even questioning, about Naim.