Naim streamer...on radar?

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
It is also nice that older Linn kit can be upgraded with the Dynamik PS which seems to be a great philiosophy IMO.

I like that Naim gives you the option of the PSU upgrade, which can be used on other pieces of kit down the road. Also it is nice that getting the PSU upgrade for exiting gear doesn't require sending it off to be modified.

How is it considered an "upgrade" when it comes standard now, and there is no other option?

-patrick

quote:

How is it considered an "upgrade" when it comes standard now, and there is no other option?

Why would I want an unecessary option? Has it occurred that maybe Naim 'needs' its so called PS Options in this case to bring it UP to the same level as the Linn?

quote:

Serve + DAC + XPS = Akurate

Not when you come to write the cheque and stack it all on an expanded rack system.

quote:

Unfortunately for those wanting fewer options, Naim has 2 analog interconnect options and 2 mains cable options

not sure what you mean. There is a world of interconnect and power cable options out there for all who want them.

Geoff

quote:

Not when you come to write the cheque and stack it all on an expanded rack system.

Who said they have to be the same price? Especially when the Naim is better

Patrick
Have you ever heard the Akurate or Klimax?
Have you ever heard the Serve+Dac+PS?

I don't get this Linn obssession.

I've heard the same system as gregg heard and I thought that the Naim ones were a whole lot better.

Def. different kettle of fish.

Linn stuff is just too laid back and unexciting but I'm probably in minority as I know a lot of people like that sort of presentation.

Now for having a lots of boxes, it is not ideal in a practical sense, but no free lunch as I haven't heard anything that produce the Naim sound yet from a small package.

all the linn stuff seems expensive for me, but i bet they are selling more than naim cd players.

very few of my local dealers are selling any players., but the linn models are selling very well. sign of the times. glad that turntables have survived. again rega and project have the market

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
I don't get this Linn obssession.

I've heard the same system as gregg heard and I thought that the Naim ones were a whole lot better.

Def. different kettle of fish.

I guess everyone likes different things. Many who demoed at the same dealer have loved the Linn streamers-much in the same way that many prefer the Akiva compared to the Dynavectors etc

For me the nDac sounds just like it is priced-about like a CD5-nice but not CDX2 or CDS3 level. As for the HDX I just don't get that one-performance or price. I would take a CDX2 over it any day (even the old one).

Now- an LP12 - well that is one where at least we all can agree on

I had the old CDX2 (VAM1250 transport), than the HDX and now CDX2-2 plus the Naim DAC with DC1 digtial interconnect. Well, in my system the Naim DAC improved things quite a bit But be aware that a "wrong" digital cable can ruin everything! This is not to say that the DC1 is the only good sounding digital cable, but I tried quite a few and there are rather big differences. My DC1 stays. I dare to say that if the Naim DAC does not reach CDX2 level, than something is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Many who demoed at the same dealer have loved the Linn streamers-much in the same way that many prefer the Akiva compared to the Dynavectors etc

Yeah. It was a *captivating* sort of sound but just couldn't nailed me to the seat as a piece of Naim kit does.

Akiva/XV1/Orpheus dem was interesting, wasn't it?
That was a clear consensus there altho, I am not too nuts about SV1s as many here. It was also surprise that the Orpheus sounded dull as a dishwater. I don't know what that was about cuz, I have heard it better in my rig. Much better in fact.

quote:

For me the nDac sounds just like it is priced-about like a CD5-nice but not CDX2 or CDS3 level. As for the HDX I just don't get that one-performance or price. I would take a CDX2 over it any day (even the old one).

I haven't heard the production version of the nDAC. but the proto sounded like a typical X range Naim player.

I would love something like an HDX as all in one box that does everything without being a geek. My concern is that it still seems to be buggy as anything PC ralated product would be.

quote:

Now- an LP12 - well that is one where at least we all can agree on

Yep.

And especially yours.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Patrick
Have you ever heard the Akurate or Klimax?
Have you ever heard the Serve+Dac+PS?

I have not heard the DS players but have tried to demo at the local Linn dealer who keeps very erratic hours and doesn't have enough staff to answer the phone.

I have heard MY Naim DAC bare and with an olive XPS. I have heard HDX with and without 555ps.

I dont think anyone outside of the lab has heard the Uniserve, so I guess you were just being a dick there

What does it matter though? I am only stating above that Naim have a "streamer" just not in one box. My sole comment on relative quality is backed up with a winky that clearly shows I am joking.

I dont really want to demo the DS players to be honest. They are out of my budget. I am sure they are fine pieces, but I dont want to lust for something I cannot afford right now.

The Naim DAC was a perfect price point (for me) yet reassuringly expensive (borrowed phase). It has improved my listening experience beyond my expectations.

I dont know or care whether it is better or worse than players I cannot afford and will never likely hear in a meaningful demo. The fact that the Naim DAC is in the discussion with CDX2s, Akurates, Klimaxs, CD5x etc...and is maybe one of the least expensive options, is very attractive to me.

-Patrick

I've had HDX/555PS/DAC and now use KlimaxDS. Nuff said. I'm also down to just one Fraim, and the looks are a bonus too. If you've got active speakers, like I have, then running them direct from a DS (or through a pre. if you need extra inputs) makes a very simple system

Geoff is right though - the Linn 'hair shirt' approach is daunting for the beginner (that's why they recommend dealer install), but I consider my HDX experience as part of my learning curve.
The HDX is a great one-box solution, which has excellent expandability (like all Naim kit of course) - a multi-purpose tool - and it sounds great. I'm sure the new streamer or whatever it is will follow the same philosophy, but why wait when there are already alternatives?
Cheers
John

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:

Serve + DAC + XPS = Akurate

Not when you come to write the cheque and stack it all on an expanded rack system.

Okay so rack size is important consideration too but ...

Naim HDX - £4,595
Naim DAC - £1,995
Naim 555PS - £5,100
Total - £11,690

Linn Klimax DS - £11,600

And as has been discussed - the Naim UnitiServe-SSD is £2,250 so that makes the Naim setup less. Okay so Patrick's UnitiServe + DAC is comparable to the Magik DS may be a little off as price wise it's more in line with a Akurate DS - a UnitiQute with it's pre and power amps removed would fit that purpose better (though would probably cost the same as the UnitiQute does now). Anyway the DAC is more flexible than the Akurate DS though so it's swings and roundabouts weather you want a CD player or other sources in addition to streaming.

I'm not saying you have to prefer the Naim philosophy over the Linn one - but to say Naim don't have a solution is just wrong - they just don't have the **exact** solution which suits you! As for arguments about whether power supplies should be internal or external, surely by buying Naim (and most people who visit the forums are quite experienced Naim purchasers) you KNOW that Naim's philosophy is that a good external Linear power supply, and in most cases upgradable in stages, is what you need - so why complain about all the boxes now? That's the choice you make when buying Naim! It's worked for a long time, now all of a sudden people are complaining because they need 2 or 3 boxes for their "digital music" playback. That's not to say that Chord and Linn's switch mode power supplies don't work well, but that's not Naim's thing.

My thoughts for new products would be...
1) UnitiQute with preamp and power amp removed, designed as a digital source (UPnP + Radio) for 5i and XS series.
2) DAC with a built in (analogue) volume for connection directly to a DAC. Not to replace the existing DAC but as a second product. All other features from the current DAC as per now. Would make for excellent 3-box (transport / DAC-pre / Poweramp) setup
3) High end version of HDX. IIRC this was talked about when Naim first was talking about the NaimNet and HDX - remote storage (via NAS now I guess) and 2 boxes - 1 transport/player and DAC, 2 the PSU. To my mind this also needs additional SPDIF inputs.

Finally, it would be really good if the HDX / UnitiServe could control the DAC and Pre-amp via the iPod Touch / iPad controller.

Eloise

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:
Serve + DAC + XPS = Akurate

Not when you come to write the cheque and stack it all on an expanded rack system.

Eloise to be fair to me I was referring to Patrick's comparison which produces a totally different price calculation in which the Naim configuration is quite a lot more expensive than the £3900 you pay for an Akurate, I think.

I am not knocking Naim just presenting a different point of view. I have been a significant user of Naim for about 10 years and came up thru' the ranks of CDP's, Pre & Power amps to the 552/500. I do understand the external PS upgrade approach has merits and was particularly advantageous for a long period because it was part of a design strategy that had merit then.

Naim themselves however started using compact power supplies in some of there more recent products such as the NVI and the Supernait. Other cmapanies put more into perfecting low noise switch mode PSs and those efforts are bearing fruit in a simalar way except they can be internal.I think this could be viewed as an alternative solution to teh external PS. Interestingly a lot of the best CDP solutions actually seperate the DAC from the CD Drive with PS.

Also I did mention in an earlier post that Linn's 'hair shirt' approach is not an easy implementation for a newbie. Naim certainly has some simple 'all in the box' solutions. I just think the time has come for them to look at the range and recognise there is not a product equivalent to the DS solution, which fits the profile of a lot of mature HiFi geeks with substantial systems, better.

BTW being cynical Naim has a great business in selling its 'Universal' external PSs which quite rightly, from a commercial point of view, they would be silly to phase out. I am not saying their PSs don't do what it says on the tin in the context of their design philosophy streching back in time. I am just asying maybe if they added a box to the range in which they didn't have to find space for all the extra circuitry and power demands of Hard drives, Optical drives , pre amp and power amp they could avoid the whole external PS concept for that particular box and still acheive the same result.

As yourself and others here have commented you prefer the way the Naim kit sounds and I certainly understand how that can be so. I am one of those that looked at Linn ( intially with suspicion) and discovered a sound and solution I like. I certainly would not entertain a complete Linn system. It just happens that the streamer / DAC they make works synergistically with a Naim audio system to preserve the sound signature I know and love.

...oh and another vote for Vinyl replay. Thats my primary source.

regards
geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:
Serve + DAC + XPS = Akurate

Not when you come to write the cheque and stack it all on an expanded rack system.

Eloise to be fair to me I was referring to Patrick's comparison which produces a totally different price calculation in which the Naim configuration is quite a lot more expensive than the £3900 you pay for an Akurate I think.

You're right ... I quoted Patrick and you but was actually thinking of someone else who commented that the Naim HDX + DAC + 555PS was significantly more than the Linn, though the be fair it possibly is in other markets. On the other hand, some comparisons put the bare HDX on a par with the Akurate DS...

quote:

Naim themselves however started using compact power supplies in some of there more recent products such as the NVI and the Supernait. Other cmapanies put more into perfecting low noise switch mode PSs and those efforts are bearing fruit in a simalar way except they can be internal.

You are correct - though the Supernait is also upgradable using a HiCap. There still seams to be mixed feelings about switch mode PS and I have heard comments from some "audiophiles" that they wouldn't consider equipment with SMPS - though thats probably a prejudice rather than having listened to any devices with SMPS.

quote:

Also I did mention in an earlier post that Linn's 'hair shirt' approach is not an easy implementation for a newbie. Naim certainly has some simple all in the box solutions. I just think the time has come for them to look at the range and recognise there is not a product equivalent to the DS solution, which fits the profile of a lot of mature HiFi geeks with substantial systems better.

I'm not sure - I would say Naim's "geek" offering is mating a DAC directly to a computer via SPDIF interface. Though I do see the attraction for some people of using a DS type streamer, I'm just not sure it's right / wise for Naim to try to produce everything - and if they're not producing everything what would you have them drop to produce a high end streamer. Get rid of the HDX? Get rid of the DAC? Sounds like you want a "half-geek" option!

quote:

maybe if they added a box to the range in which they didn't have to find space for all the extra circuitry and power demands of Hard drives, Optical drives , pre amp and power amp they could avoid the whole external PS concept for that particular box and still achieve the same result.

Possibly but only by going the SMPS route... I doubt though even removing the optical drive could Naim have fitted a PSU inside the UnitiServe for example.

quote:

As yourself and others here have commented they prefer the way teh Naim kit sounds and I certainly understand how that can be so. I am one of those that looked at Linn ( intially with suspicion) and discoverde a sound and solution I like. I certainly would not entertain a complete Linn system. It just happens that the streamer / DAC they make works synergistically with a Naim audio system to preserve the sound signature I know and love.

I guess I'm not actually invested in wanting Naim to make a streamer, I'm more interested in using a MacMini with the DAC than any streamer. I guess all I'm trying to say is that those people who are waiting for Naim to produce the streamer they want might be in for a long wait... Or maybe they won't ... I'm only guessing. It just seams every month or usually more often so we have a thread asking for a streamer ... and the same replies (including from me I guess) questioning WHY people want a streamer and what functionality they expect it to have, etc. Now if only Apple would make a black anodized version of the Mini...

quote:

...oh and another vote for Vinyl replay. Thats my primary source.

It's not my primary source, but I do still like sitting down to listen to a piece of vinyl every now and then, though my vinyl collection is very modest compared with CD collection (which is modest compared with some).

Geoff
Well put

Eloise
The price comparison I mentioned was for the USA market. Over here you will find that:

HDX/NDAC/555PS costs considerably more than the Klimax DS
bare HDX costs considerably more than Akurate DS
NDAC/XPS2 costs considerably more than Akurate DS

In a nutshell,in the States, an Akurate DS at $6500 (with current models including Dynamik PS) represents a great digital playback solution at a great price.

PS as further comparison I believe the new CDX2/2 is of a similar cost to the Akurate

Gregg

CDX2 is cheaper by $1K than the Akurate DS in the US.

Last I checked, KDS is still more expensive in US than HDX / 555PS / DAC combo–substitute UnitiServe and it's way cheaper than KDS by thousands.

For that matter, UnitiServe-1TB + DAC in US costs same as ADS, includes storage and UPnP / StreamNet services as well as DAC inputs (and iPod connectivity). Drop the storage for silent SSD variant and it's still a bargain.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Last I checked, KDS is still more expensive in US than HDX / 555PS / DAC

Check again

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Last I checked, KDS is still more expensive in US than HDX / 555PS / DAC

Check again

According to Goodwin High End (can't find a USA retail pricelist for Linn) the Klimax DS is $18,500

According to Naim USA retail pricelist
HDX-500GB -- $7,850
DAC -- $3,300
555PS -- $8,500
Totalling $19,850

With the UnitiServe-SSD ($3,300) this comes down to $15,300.

Just for the record...

Eloise

I've heard the Linn streamers a few times in systems I didn't know at shows, yet every time I heard one, I knew it was the source, whether it was a Linn system (ok, that's obvious) or an Adam active system. There is a (to me rather obvious) character about Linn's presentation which is authoritative and organised without allowing any looseness for the performance to come through. And that's why I'm not allowed any LINN in the house. Yes, SWMBO has a real block on the brand, but I must admit I am with her on this, and therefore still slumming it with a PlayStation3 while I figure out what to do about digital replay.

Geoff, I find it very interesting that you don't perceive a detrimental hit in your system by having the Linn in the system. If Linn have played a miracle of design, they've managed to control the noise effects of their SMPS in that Dynamik PS job. That said, may I suggest testing a mains conditioner just for the Linn? It may help enormously.

quote:

Geoff, I find it very interesting that you don't perceive a detrimental hit in your system by having the Linn in the system. If Linn have played a miracle of design, they've managed to control the noise effects of their SMPS in that Dynamik PS job. That said, may I suggest testing a mains conditioner just for the Linn? It may help enormously.

Hi Frank

I don't think I am kidding myself. Still have my CDS3/555PS ( nobody seems to want a CDP these days. I wonder why?) so I am doing back and forths with only one source plugged in at a time.

The Linn is into its 4th week and is still improving in subtle ways. It certainly exhibited a painfull early burn in period very similar to Naim so that maybe a factor in some peoples demo listens.

On the PS noise the only thing that is probably a help is that I have two dedicated thick wire spurs. The 552 and the 500 are on one spur the Linn is on the other.

Don't like the idea of mains conditioners and don't seem to need it so far.

regards
geoff

Hi,

I think with streaming you cant focus on the sound quality only. Comfort is almost of the same importance. Unfortunately Sooloos doesnt want to produce a more affordable system.

I just finished a 2 weeks home demo of a HDX/XPS2 compared to my humble Majik DS and the decision was not easy. Soundwise the HDX/XPS2 clearly beats the MDS. More details, more guts, more stability, more dynamics, just everything. Usability wise the HDX is a total disaster. It takes ages to boot, gets very hot, makes a lot of noise, heavily disturbes all analog boxes (MDS doesnt!), needs 10+h to scan my server, regularly looses connectivity and need again 10h to rescan before playing, is not controlable with a Smartphone etc etc. Everytime you start the HDX you need to tell him again to use the network share, because he forgets this when send to standby... annoying. A simple nightmare. Only benefit is the touchscreen.

Naim will never have the resources to do full proper coding of their proprietary software. It´s simply not their core business. They should focus on hardware and sound and let the software do somebody else. To setup a MDS including UPnP server you need ca. 15min to play the first streamed song. With a HDX you need at least 12h.

Next week I will compare the ADS vs MDS/nDAC/XPS2, so at least the usability is equal. If the ADS sounds anywhere near the Naim solution, I will go for the one box design. It saves space, racks, power and is simply easier to use with less potential problem areas. Still believe that Naim was correct when they claimed that an external DAC creates more problems than benefits...

thx n brgds...TC

quote:

Originally posted by yeti.fro:
I think with streaming you cant focus on the sound quality only. Comfort is almost of the same importance. Unfortunately Sooloos doesnt want to produce a more affordable system.

Maybe not affordable quite ... but the new Sooloos Control 15 combines everything (including storage) into one box for £4750 (digital output only). Previously you had to buy a Control 10 (£3995) plus the Ensemble (£2995) for the minimum system.

Totally agree with you that a great sounding streaming solution (whether UPnP, integrated such as HDX or a computer) is pointless without having a good user interface.

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Last I checked, KDS is still more expensive in US than HDX / 555PS / DAC

Check again

According to Goodwin High End (can't find a USA retail pricelist for Linn) the Klimax DS is $18,500

According to Naim USA retail pricelist
HDX-500GB -- $7,850
DAC -- $3,300
555PS -- $8,500
Totalling $19,850

With the UnitiServe-SSD ($3,300) this comes down to $15,300.

Just for the record...

Eloise

Eloise
You are correct. I believe that Naim still considers the HDX/NDAC/555PS as their ultimate digital replay solution. As such this is the one which should be compared to the Klimax.

On a side note my dealer (both Naim and Linn) has said that the new Akurate (with Dynamik) is just about where the original Klimax was (I have only heard the old versions of both). As Geoff has discovered that is where the true value lies ($6800).

Yeti.fro- let us know how your Akurate demo goes.
Best
Gregg

Likewise, the same could be said for HDX-SSD.

Best idea–audition current-version products at your retailer.

Make sure you use something like ChorusDSHD on an iPad to control the ADS. Makes a nice interface.