Supertweeters
Posted by: webrat11 on 02 January 2004
A Happy New Year to All.
The topic of Supertweeters came up in conversation over Christmas tipples and nibbles.
This is all new to me. I am told they will do for the top end what a sub does for the low end. Cursory research on the www reveals that Tannoy manufacture them but I couldn't see any others. They appear to be targeted at SACD/DVD-A setups (which I have AV2/NPV2). I am currently using kef 104/2 loudspeakers (fronts)and a KEF 200c centre all with the usual sort of tweeter.
Does anyone have any experience of supertweeters - do they work and make a significant difference?
In an av set-up would one need a supertweeter on the centre channel as well as the fronts to get a fuller effect.
Ian
The topic of Supertweeters came up in conversation over Christmas tipples and nibbles.
This is all new to me. I am told they will do for the top end what a sub does for the low end. Cursory research on the www reveals that Tannoy manufacture them but I couldn't see any others. They appear to be targeted at SACD/DVD-A setups (which I have AV2/NPV2). I am currently using kef 104/2 loudspeakers (fronts)and a KEF 200c centre all with the usual sort of tweeter.
Does anyone have any experience of supertweeters - do they work and make a significant difference?
In an av set-up would one need a supertweeter on the centre channel as well as the fronts to get a fuller effect.
Ian
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by Geoff P
Ian
I went to the same www. places you have been recently. Tannoy markets the hell out of the idea that they bring something to the total bandwidth and subjectively an enhanced midrange and even bass sound is heard.
I tried them out on a home demo from my friendly hifi shop. I ran them on and off for about 3 weeks on all kinds of music in stereo.
I did'nt buy them!!
Was there a subjective change in the overall sound? Well just a little.
I also have a sub-woofer and I felt that the sub has a much more noticeable beneficial effect on the total sound.
The other thing is that by their very nature supertweeters will increase the high frequency sound which can become over bright in some systems so it is vital to try them out in your own home first.
Of course most of the frequencies they claim to give out are beyond audiblity to us humans, we are ownly supposed to hear the lower harmonics of these frequencies.
If you have a pet such as a dog he may hear stuff you can't and he may or may not like it.
Finally I would'nt think there would be much benefit from adding supertweeters to all channels for SACD/DVD-A, especially since a lot of the time there is'nt much of the music coming out of even the center channel, let alone the surrounds. It would also get quite expensive at 600 GBP / pair.
Do try and demo them yourself if you are really keen on the idea. Individual hearing varies a lot in the high frequency area so it is very subjective.
regards
GEOFF
I went to the same www. places you have been recently. Tannoy markets the hell out of the idea that they bring something to the total bandwidth and subjectively an enhanced midrange and even bass sound is heard.
I tried them out on a home demo from my friendly hifi shop. I ran them on and off for about 3 weeks on all kinds of music in stereo.
I did'nt buy them!!
Was there a subjective change in the overall sound? Well just a little.
I also have a sub-woofer and I felt that the sub has a much more noticeable beneficial effect on the total sound.
The other thing is that by their very nature supertweeters will increase the high frequency sound which can become over bright in some systems so it is vital to try them out in your own home first.
Of course most of the frequencies they claim to give out are beyond audiblity to us humans, we are ownly supposed to hear the lower harmonics of these frequencies.
If you have a pet such as a dog he may hear stuff you can't and he may or may not like it.
Finally I would'nt think there would be much benefit from adding supertweeters to all channels for SACD/DVD-A, especially since a lot of the time there is'nt much of the music coming out of even the center channel, let alone the surrounds. It would also get quite expensive at 600 GBP / pair.
Do try and demo them yourself if you are really keen on the idea. Individual hearing varies a lot in the high frequency area so it is very subjective.
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by trickytree
Ian.
Townsend make a pair at £800 (ouch) and there reveiwed in the latest issue of HIFI World.
Paul.
Townsend make a pair at £800 (ouch) and there reveiwed in the latest issue of HIFI World.
Paul.
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by trickytree
On a similar theme I had a pair of Infinity Kappa 6's many years ago that used one of there EMIT HF units. I had only CD at the time so never gave them any thought but just before I sold them I took them round to a freinds house and we had a listen on his vinyl set-up, (a Rock/ AT-C09 IIRC) and the result was stunning. The top end seemed to go on forever, so you CAN hear those extra highs. I liked the efect, my host did not.
Now that I have an all vinyl system I have given alot of thought to Wilmslow Audio's up-dated Decca-Volt speaker that uses a Visaton ribbon tweeter.
Paul.
Now that I have an all vinyl system I have given alot of thought to Wilmslow Audio's up-dated Decca-Volt speaker that uses a Visaton ribbon tweeter.
Paul.
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by DAVOhorn
Dear All,
I have used the Pioneer TAD PTR7 super tweeters for about 3 years.
I would not be without them. They have added a sense of space and air to the overall sound .
As the x over is 20khz so only SACD DVDA and Vinyl will get benefit from them as other media do not go above 20khz. MANY CARTRIDGES WILL HAVE A BANDWIDTH UP TO 50khz SO DEFINITELY WORTH WHILE WITH A GOOD VINYL SYSTEM.
As an aside i also have 2 large Subs in the system as well so my sytem covers 10hz - 100khz.
So yes i would have no problem recommending super tweeters .
regards David
I have used the Pioneer TAD PTR7 super tweeters for about 3 years.
I would not be without them. They have added a sense of space and air to the overall sound .
As the x over is 20khz so only SACD DVDA and Vinyl will get benefit from them as other media do not go above 20khz. MANY CARTRIDGES WILL HAVE A BANDWIDTH UP TO 50khz SO DEFINITELY WORTH WHILE WITH A GOOD VINYL SYSTEM.
As an aside i also have 2 large Subs in the system as well so my sytem covers 10hz - 100khz.
So yes i would have no problem recommending super tweeters .
regards David
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by prowla
Apparently Queen used to like using the high frequencies in their recordings - I think I recall that they used to call it "crystal".
(I've no idea why I remembered that!)
Paul Rowlands
(I've no idea why I remembered that!)
Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by Betton
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Geoff P:
Was there a subjective change in the overall sound? Well just a little.
Geoff
this is hardly surprising since Naim 252 preamp you're using is strictly band-limited.
Try a supertweeter with SACD (or analogue) and with higher bandwidth amplification and I think you will be surprised at the overall change of the sound.
Cheers, Betton
Was there a subjective change in the overall sound? Well just a little.
Geoff
this is hardly surprising since Naim 252 preamp you're using is strictly band-limited.
Try a supertweeter with SACD (or analogue) and with higher bandwidth amplification and I think you will be surprised at the overall change of the sound.
Cheers, Betton
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by Geoff P
Betton
Not sure if your statement about the 252 is correct ( I actually have a 282 but it applies to that aswell).
Naim describes both as capable of 40db overlaod margin at all audio frequencies whatever that means
Also my 250mk2 is rated with an upper -3db point of 65Khz!
I played DVD-A and SACD through the supertweeters whilst I was testing them out and stick by what I reported earlier.
Incidentally particulalrly on SACD most of high frequency stuff is supposed to be inaudible because it is noise.
Also apparently even the best microphones in use in recording studios don't really work well above 30Khz and the vast majority have liitle or no capability above 25Khz!
Most DVD-A and SACD music is remixed from original recording masters which probably have hardly any info above 25 Khz on them anyway.
regards
GEOFF
Not sure if your statement about the 252 is correct ( I actually have a 282 but it applies to that aswell).
Naim describes both as capable of 40db overlaod margin at all audio frequencies whatever that means
Also my 250mk2 is rated with an upper -3db point of 65Khz!
I played DVD-A and SACD through the supertweeters whilst I was testing them out and stick by what I reported earlier.
Incidentally particulalrly on SACD most of high frequency stuff is supposed to be inaudible because it is noise.
Also apparently even the best microphones in use in recording studios don't really work well above 30Khz and the vast majority have liitle or no capability above 25Khz!
Most DVD-A and SACD music is remixed from original recording masters which probably have hardly any info above 25 Khz on them anyway.
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 02 January 2004 by Betton
Geoff
It's notorious that Naim preamps are strictly band-limited. The frequency response graphs of the 552 published by Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/880/index6.html) show this very well (I think it should apply to your 282 as well).
So when feeded by your 282, your 250mkII will not be able to reach its upper limit of 65Khz -3db. My point is that's probably the reason why you have not heard significant changes in overall sound with supertweeters.
The audible effect of add-on supertweeters when listening to wide bandwidth sources such as SACD has been reported on several occasions; during a recent dem I found it so strikingly beneficial that now I have one on order (of course I have a SACD player).
Regards, Betton
It's notorious that Naim preamps are strictly band-limited. The frequency response graphs of the 552 published by Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/880/index6.html) show this very well (I think it should apply to your 282 as well).
So when feeded by your 282, your 250mkII will not be able to reach its upper limit of 65Khz -3db. My point is that's probably the reason why you have not heard significant changes in overall sound with supertweeters.
The audible effect of add-on supertweeters when listening to wide bandwidth sources such as SACD has been reported on several occasions; during a recent dem I found it so strikingly beneficial that now I have one on order (of course I have a SACD player).
Regards, Betton