HELP! A pair of SBL's has ruined my life

Often shouty or brite sounding SBLs are caused by poor set-up. Either the speaker has not been assembled properly or the system may need some tweaking. (also, any superflous transducers in the room will ruin the performance of the SBL: get rid of any phones, pagers, subwoofers, ect: anything that makes noise) Consult the forum achives for set-up advice. Often a 30amp dedicated line will do wonders for SBLs and the amp which drives them. It is very important that the SBLs be perfectly level before you apply the silicone and try not to move them much. Also, sometimes a small ammount of toe-in can smooth out the midrange. It often takes time to get an SBL to work. I had to hang heavy curtains and place thick carpeting on my wood floors before the SBLs really began to sing. They are worth the extra effort and will make all other speakers sound broken...much like your proacs.

What is your system now?

Chris Bell
CDS2/52/500/DBL/IS/AMAZINGG

Can anyone point to (as the old forum posts have been lost) some recent suggestions on setup? Thanks.

I have some handwritten instructions from Naim.

I can send you a copy if you wish......its not at all difficult.

Regards

Mick

I've been told that active SBLs are much better, but that kind of money gets a little silly to fix a poor midrange. I would look at other speakers (Royd, Neat, etc.) before getting SBLs.

In fact, I think the Neat Elite is a nice blending of the SBL and Albion attributes. It doesn't have quite the sense of boogie and cohesion of the Albion, but the bass is a little deeper and more defined. I still prefer the Albion overall, but I could see others going for the Elite.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I must tell you, in my room (which is woodfloored and much of the left wall is glass) the SBL's did not strike me as "bright" or "shouty". At first, the amount of high frequency energy is a little off-putting, put you soon acclimate once its clear that it is neither strident nor fatiguing.

My complaint about the midrange is not that it is shouty or glaring, but that it is muffled and veiled. It seems to be recessed into the loudspeaker, whereas the upper midrange, treble and bass gloriously break free of the enclosures.

BTW, we were using a P9/RB900/Ortofon ML25 72/hicap 250 combo with naca 5. If I go active, I will be using two 180's. If I stay passive, I'll use a 250.

The room is approximately 12ft by 20ft (4m x 6.5m). I have to have the SBL's against the 12ft wall, with a big honkin 36 inch TV on a wooden TV stand between them. That's it. I was concerned maybe the SBL's were interacting with the TV. But I have bo choice but to put the TV there. We were careful about he sealent, but can't say we took any effort to level the speakers much. They looked spot on though.

I like everthing the SBL's do, but I'm concerned about the midrange.

Judd

I really need floorstandings speakers. Are the Abbots any good.

Judd

I understand that the Mystiques aren't as bad that way, but they aren't as good a speaker either.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Judd

You should never have anything between your speakers. Second the speakers in your TV are making your SBLs go out of tune. Here is why:

In a nutshell, anything that is intended to turn an electrical signal into a sound (loudspeaker, telephone handset speaker, television speakers, electronic clock or wrist-watch alarm, burglar alarm keypad beeper, ultrasonic motion detector sender, smoke alarm beeper, electronic component beeper) or turn a sound into an electrical signal (microphone, telephone handset mic, ultrasonic motion detector receiver, glass-break detector, etc.) will resonate in sympathy to the music playing in a room. The resultant output will intermodulate with the music and alter the rhythm of the music and the pitches of the notes.

Items which resonate with a "bell-like" quality may also have the same effect. Items such as a piano or other acoustic musical instrument, an auxiliary telephone bell, the bell in a manual typewriter, hollow metal or ceramic pottery and statuary, and bicycle wheels have all been heard to alter the rhythm of the pitches of the notes of music being played in the same room. Decorative "dressing screens", and panel and foam type acoustical room treatments can wreak havoc with the rhythm and pitches of music as well.

To understand this phenomenon, try this demo:

1) Place an extra speaker in the room with a pair of speakers playing. Remove the grill from the unused speaker while the music is playing.Feel the vibration of the cone of the woofer on the undriven speaker.

2) Turn the volume all the way down and remove the grill from the working loudspeaker, and feel the cone as the volume is turned up slowly, stopping when it feels to be about the same amount of vibration as the undriven speaker had been previously.

3) The amount of noise being made by this driven woofer is the same as was made by the undriven one before (equal vibration equals equal noise, roughly speaking). It is doubtful that anyone will deny that this much extraneous noise will interfere with the music!

(coppied from the Hawthore Stereo Web Site)
Chris Bell

quote:

---

...anything that is intended to turn an electrical signal into a sound ... or turn a sound into an electrical signal ... will resonate in sympathy to the music playing in a room.

---

OK, this is something I've been wondering about for a while...

Say you go to hear an orchestra. Suppose some musicians are wearing digital watches with alarms and that some members of the audience have beepers, cell phones and digital watches. Does that put the orchestra out of tune?

Not trying to be a butt-much or anything, but if these widgets kill the groove and tune of your hi-fi, wouldn't they do the same to live music?

Joe

Yes.

I make suere there are no superflous transducers in my room when I do serious listening. Even the smallest beeper will destroy the tunefullness of my DBLs.

Chris Bell

PS: If you must keep a TV in the room, make some covers out of acrilic and cover the TV speakers during listening sessions. While this is not perfect, it does cut down on the damage.

quote:

---

Yes [in reference to beepers, cell phones and digital watches killing the tune at live gigs]

---

Must explain why Furtwangler got the tune right. He was recorded before the advent of even stereophonic sound.

Joe

quote:

---

Suppose some musicians are wearing digital watches with alarms and that some members of the audience have beepers, cell phones and digital watches. Does that put the orchestra out of tune?

---

Yeah! Ever wondered why the music is so crap in a Dire Straits concert? Yes it's all those yuppified cellphones and pagers destroying that foot-tapping musicality

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

quote:

---

What's a butt-much?

---

Crap, I spelled it wrong. It should have been butt-munch. And I just did a search on the Net, trying to find an official definition but it seems to have another meaning of relevance to the porn industry.

The meaning I was trying to convey was "arsehole" or "jerk" as in "I'm not trying to be a arsehole/jerk or anything, but..."

Joe

quote:

---

My complaint about the midrange is not that it is shouty or glaring, but that it is muffled and veiled.

---

if anything, the sbl's midrange can be a bit too overstated, too fwd. but i dont doubt that you are describing what you heard, so, suspect either something is not quite right, or perhaps the sbl's are not your cup of tea. i wonder though whether after the re-set, whether they are completely settled in now?

enjoy...?

ken

a)by this theory, the left and right loudspeakers will interfere with each other--and what's more, send back EMF to the amplifier.

b)telephones and cell phones and digital alarm clocks may not be that great a problem, because even when driven hard, they cannot produce much volume.

c)the experiment itself is faulty because we don't know what the signal radiated from the passive speaker will sound like. If it is uncorrelated noise, that's potentially different from a reproduction of the input signal. Shouldn't we hook up the passive speaker's electrical output to a scope if we actually want to see how much acoustic power is being re-radiated passively?

My rooms is almost always a mess, but I've never noticed a degradation from multiple speakers in the room.

--Eric

Those beepers, and cell phones are perhaps the worst offenders because of the volume levels they produce. You can often hear them several rooms away producing their loud beeps and rings. Also, I guarentee any superflous speaker in your listening room is causing problems. Listen to some simple solo piano with and without your phone. You will hear a distinct difference in the sound. This is why I hate subwoofers, sure they may produce a nice bottom end, but they destroy the tunefullness of the high end. Older Naim user manuals used to advise removing telephones and other devices which could produce sympathetic tones. Its one of those factors that once you realize how much damage they do you cannot listen with removing them first. I know I can't. p

If you would look up on two of my previous posts on the SBLs (go into "View Posts"), perhaps that would help to an extent.

I don't get a muddied or thin midrange from my SBLs, in fact they sound crystal clear, yet full and warm. They are really quite shocking, and every tweak I've experimented with yields a different sound, sometimes better, sometimes worse. You decide what suits your tastes best.

This will sound overquoted and trite, but the reality is how you set up the SBLs will determine the sort of sound you get, and they are really finicky about precise set-up. Once you look into detailed aspects of your set-up, the SBLs will reward you with wonderful sonics. 72/250 is a great combo for them and the money. I've heard this combo sing, although a long time ago at the end of a CDI. I wouldn't advise active 180s, but that's your call. Of course room acoustics, a dedicated electricity spur and proper equipment table all play a part. Separating your signal and power cables help. The point is : the sum of all these "small" parts adds up to the big sonic picture.

Get rid of your TV set - that's a no-no; it's either the music or the visuals - choose. You can't have both (unless a projector screen comes to mind).

Hope this helps.

Good listening; the music's still groovin'.

Philip

naimniac for life

I thought I'd reproduce your post here, in order to tread through it, as much discussion has already passed.

quote:

---

I friend of mine loaned me his SBL's last week for a quick comparison to my current boxes, some proac tablette 2000 sigs. The SBL's better the proacs in almost every way. In fact, I now feel that i cannot live without the incredible bass and treble the SBL's put on in my system. However, I am very concerned about the midrange. To me, the SBL's sounded muffled, small, and weiled in the midrange (mostly female voices and horns). In this area, by proacs were clearly better (my friend also agreed). But the SBL's obliterated them in every other way. Now I don't know what to do.
I was all set to buy a pair of SBL's, but I do value an uncolored (and forward, I admit) midband more than anything else. So. . .

---

As you've probably read by now, the SBL's need a careful setup. That is, completely level (non-rocking) base box. Then seals, and silicone carefully applied (we're skipping the full instruction here, ok?)... and the tweet box correctly leveled and attached. Anything less than this, and you're not hearing what they'll do, and what you are hearing, is likely not representative of their performance.
From here, if you've not set them up, and do like most of what they do: continue! You might just have found the speaker system for you! If you have, there might be up-stream issues in your system setup (the SBL's are mightily revealing), or it's a positioning/room thing.

I find there's nothing circa the price that does percussion (sounds, like drum skins, Tablas etc.) like SBL's. Nothing I've heard, anyway. Top end? I think it's neutral, although I have a friend who opines the SBL implementation of this tweeter is raggedy at best, and also feels the "soundstage" (whatever that is - I never notice it) is like musical pizza splattered against the wall! Horses for courses - that's clearly a taste and priorities thing. The mid strikes me as neutral too - not forward, not recessed.

quote:

---

my questions are:

Does anybody else feel this way about the SBL's midrange?

---

quote:

---

I would also look at Kan 1 or 2's with a sub (though floor standers are better for my situation). Are the kan's a bit better in the midband. I would love to have something right up against the wall.

---

Kans and SBL's are different beasties, while both still carrying the Flat Earth Genus. Given my system evolution, I have absolutely no regrets in stepping away from Kans in favour of (latest spec) SBL's. Some of the Forum attendees have heard the differences (in my room, on my system) -and they were not subtle. Ok, mine could benefit from more than a 140 in the bottom-end region. A number of forum visitors have expressed surprise at how good its all sounding.

quote:

---

As it is now, I cannot appreciate the Proacs knowing that my bass doesn't have to be that boomy, and that I'm missing 50% of upper registers.

---

Go on - I dare ya'll to call me an SBL nazi.

** - assuming the seals are all intact etc.

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

quote:

---

Ask Tony Lonorgan about ProAcs.

---

After living with Kan for years I went over to Isobariks. I didn't really get on with them (though respect them greatly), so I tried another small speaker, the Tabblette 50 Signature. They are a relatively competent speaker, and have a quite open, though slightly 'pretty' mid and top, though as with all ProAc speakers I have heard they get very soft and ill defined the lower they go in the bass (rear ports). I got fed up with them so bought another pair of Kans. Kans kill 'em in all that is musically important, simple as that.

SBLs are very weird things. I have heard them sound so different in various locations that I would stand absolutely no chance of guessing what speaker I was listening to on a blind dem. I have heard them sound bright and shouty, over warm and recessed and just right. I have really loved them and absolutely hated them, though certain traits are consistent, i.e. they obviously do not have a port. I am positive they are a top flight speaker, though remain to be convinced that they will work in certain rooms.

I (predictably) don't share Rico's view about SBLs absolute superiority to Kans, sure they do some stuff a lot better when correctly installed, but I have never heard them time as well as Kans when they are really working (i.e. mine!), and this is the most important thing for me. Most well set up SBL systems I have heard have been CD only which may go a long way to explain this (vinyl times better - go on, its fight time!).

Tony.