Computer audio setup guide

James,

Very nice.

There is a ton of useful information in this PDF.

Most notably, in the XP set-up section it mentions to check the setting "do not map through this audio device". This was key with my Transit and it being able to playback hires correctly.

Also of (funny) note is the "it just works out of the box" Mac tweakery.

In perusing that section it is clear it is much more labor and setting intensive with that OS, contrary to popular opinion.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

Also of (funny) note is the "it just works out of the box" Mac tweakery.


-Patrick

Yawn. To use an old technology phrase, "change the record" Patrick.

Joe

Makes an interesting read.

It's wrong (or at the best misleading) in places though (e.g. 32-bit windows can only access 3Gb memory not 4Gb and I'm not sure why they are making such a point of jitter giving clicks and pops - that's not strictly jitter, that's a lossy readout system). It also appears (perhaps not surprisingly) to be written from people coming from the DAC side of things rather than the PC side of things. It also discounts linux almost immediately (which is actually the easiest OS to get bit-perfect out of) as effectively "too difficult for mere mortals", although with systems like xbmc live, things are getting easier here. Also seems to be skewed towards async USB or clocking by the DAC (again perhaps unsurprisingly) as the "correct" method of implementing computer audio. Also doesn't consider usability too much - I run my media centre with a remote control for example. This isn't even mentioned here.

Nice to have a possible explanation of why itunes could sound different if you haven't configured things correctly. Also probably explains why Amarra can charge so much - it integrates with itunes and people are used to paying for itunes related things (IMHO).

And I agree with pcs - looks as easy to get a PC to output bit perfect as a mac.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
Yawn. To use an old technology phrase, "change the record" Patrick.

Joe

And posted yesterday on my thread aimed at me:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Dead horse beaten, again, and again.... poor thing.

Pot... kettle... black

Im sorry Joe. I will change it when I stop hearing this bs all of the time. The "Ignore List" option is quite handy. I wont mind.

Patrick,

I don't use 'ignore' - strikes me as childish. But pray tell which part of the document did I miss?

Was it this.....

quote:

iTunes is one of the easiest playback and music library management applications available. Obtaining
bit perfect playback via iTunes on a Macintosh computer is very easy.

Or this.....

quote:

Apple OS X is the easiest operating system to configure for bit-perfect digital audio output.

Either way, you make yourself look foolish keep running on about how bad or 'not easy' Macs are to use. It's also a fact that several versions of PC have been tricky. It doesn't mean PCs are bad..it's all about choice. But this constant anti Apple crap is just boring. You don't like...don't use.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Im sorry Joe. I will change it when I stop hearing this bs all of the time. The "Ignore List" option is quite handy. I wont mind.

Surely the point is that with Windows you have to choose between ASIO, WASAPI, Kernel Streaming and Direct Sound. The Mac OS X is limited to using Core Audio - in most cases Core Audio works well. With Windows you get software-x doesn't work with WASAPI but works with KS, but software-y works with ASIO but theres not specific ASIO drivers for my device and the ASIO4All don't work.

There is no simple one size fits all answer with Windows, whereas with Mac OS X there is a more limited amount of hardware it works with, but generally that hardware works with the standard functions.

Eloise

James,
tx! Very good document to get an overview,,, think i'll stay with dedicated streamer
Ralf

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:

Either way, you make yourself look foolish keep running on about how bad or 'not easy' Macs are to use. It's also a fact that several versions of PC have been tricky. It doesn't mean PCs are bad..it's all about choice. But this constant anti Apple crap is just boring. You don't like...don't use.

Joe

Point taken. I will keep it to myself.

Just to clarify though, I have NOTHING against Apple. Nothing. I use and LOVE many of their products. I have an old Macbook. I just dont prefer their Macintosh product, that's all.

That said, I have NEVER had an easy time doing anything on a Mac, especially when doing anything outside of the norm.

It isn't "anti-Apple", it is my experience. It is ALWAYS thrown around here in the Naim Forum that Distributed Audio is "easier" with a Mac and iTunes. I dont think that is true. It is always bandied about that iTunes requires no settings tweak. Completely not true. And when you consider you require Amarra or something to get the best from iTunes, I cant see how that is "easier" than installing a (free) ASIO driver.

I will strive to do a better job of pointing out a PC based system's benefits rather than the difficulties I find with Mac/iTunes.

-Patrick

Thanks a lot James. Seems like this is what I am looking for to configure my PC tomorrow

Hi James,

Thanks for sharing that with us.

Very useful.

Regards

Justin

Thanks very much, a great find and now stored on the hard drive

Reading this however and correct me here guys, when I'm wrong, but it sounds like you can stream studio master over USB????? Is this true? I was under the impression it was only 16 bit 44.1k and was under the impression, if i wanted to listen to studio master I'd need an optical cable.

Also, i found this great in that i have now set up media monkey and foobar to output "bit perfect" output and disabled that windows xp kmixer, which initially to my ears yesterday made quite a drastic improvement!!

I recently have been re ripping, again using a methodical approach (computer audiophile ripping strategy dbpoweramp)my cd collection and experimenting with different media players.
I've found Foobar and wav to sound best (Haven't tried jriver)and would like to use it, but compared to media monkey, it finds no info regarding tracks and artist where with media monkey i can live without artwork and the odd strange anomaly, it still brings in everything you really need and the rescan folder button is great as I'm adding things on a daily basis and this saves importing etc..

I have also considered recently, just converting from flac, from my archival copy, to AIFF, importing to itunes and being done with it!!!!, this way all info, including artwork, is available, is accessible using apple remote from iphone, is lossless can be added to current playlists, iphone and is in AIFF should i ever move to mac etc. My only problem is, to my ears, be it lossless or not, it's not as good as wav and foobar and is probably more comparable to flac with foobar....

I've been hunting around, searches etc and was wondering if there is a method for importing wav to foobar and it tagging it???? I'm sure I've came across mention of this in my searches but wouldn't know where to begin as I find foobar the most difficult to "set up"...Anyone any ideas? is there a step by step guide for this?? is it even possible?? Also I'm sure i seen something that used itunes but played through foobar or something??
Is there no way to get bit perfect with itunes on pc??...I'd love a mac, optical, itunes!!!!
But i'm in no financial state to be buying a mac solely for the purpose of music "transport" when it would be better than what I'm using just now!!!!

Once again nice find!
Cheers,.

quote:

Originally posted by gypsykirk:

...
I've been hunting around, searches etc and was wondering if there is a method for importing wav to foobar and it tagging it????
...

Cheers,.

Gypsykirk

WAV-files can be tagged nowadays and a defacto standard seems to be emerging, but it isn't supported by all audio-players/-taggers yet.

dBPoweramp supports it, but the interface for manual tagging isn't very good. But while ripping or converting to wav, tags can be added to wav-files by dBPoweramp.

mp3Tag, a much used free audiofile tagging program, doesn't support wav-files (yet).

Tag&Rename will tag WAV-files and has a good user interface as well (but isn't free while mp3Tag is free).

Foobar won't read tag from wav-files.

MediaMonkey neither but MediaMonkey builds its own separate database with file information so isn't too much dependant on the actual tags in the files.

So I guess the best route to go at the moment is to use FLAC format and have full tagging possibilities and good music management from within Foobar or go for better sound in WAV and having to compromise on the music management features from Foobar. But if you setup a good folder structure (Genre/Artist/Album) you can get a long way using the album-browser from Foobar

@PCStockton: that is a very nice skin (DarkOne v 2.1) for Foobar that you posted

-
aleg

quote:

But if you setup a good folder structure (Genre/Artist/Album) you can get a long way using the album-browser from Foobar

You know, my itunes structure is immense!! albeit, full of crappy mp3, aac, etc etc.....so I've currently two operating, one with dbpoweramp rips and itunes. I've just been adding all files into one folder and media monkey has been organising it from here (as i'm sure itunes would too, if i converted to aiff) but it has niggled me that this "unorganised" feel to it all would come back and bite me on the ass, so what you're saying is if i had say....made a folder "django reinhardt" then within it "integrale vol 1" and subsequently folders through to volume 20, that foobar will see the folders and that i may within them only have say tracks 1-21 or something but throught this approach things would still be more organised???
I think i see....... OH NO!!!!
Could be busy today!!!

quote:

Originally posted by gypsykirk:

quote:

But if you setup a good folder structure (Genre/Artist/Album) you can get a long way using the album-browser from Foobar

..., so what you're saying is if i had say....made a folder "django reinhardt" then within it "integrale vol 1" and subsequently folders through to volume 20, that foobar will see the folders and that i may within them only have say tracks 1-21 or something but throught this approach things would still be more organised???
I think i see....... OH NO!!!!
Could be busy today!!!

Gypsykirk

That is indeed what I mean.

On my main NAS I use the folder structure genre/artist/album/tracks.

On my PC with local copies I just have /artist/album. But you could use whatever folder structure you find convenient for your taste. Within the Foobar album browser it looks like this:



I think this is easy enough to find quickly what you want.

-
aleg

Thanks Aleg, i must admit, i've been tempted to just go with flac and foobar and save some hassle, but even with that i've noticed it hasn't brought the right artwork in for certain albums??? even though the correct artwork is in the metadata?? i've (as an experiment) then converted the same track/album from archival flac to aiff imported to itunes and boom everything is there!!....strange!
I just feel I'm "accepting" something in flac/aiff i know not to be the best i can get from it all and that will niggle and niggle away at me!!!
What about usb streaming studio master? do u know about that? can it do it?
I can see me maybe going down the itunes route!
One day I'll go mac i think...........

mmmm an interesting thing has happened, i've opened itunes and foobar and foobar stop sounding, the little green play icon is now reading 256 samples @ 44100 hz..
Strange, and means nothing to me!
???????

quote:

Originally posted by gypsykirk:
...
What about usb streaming studio master? do u know about that? can it do it?
...

I have no experience using USB for audio streaming. But based on what I know about computers and read about it on the forum, I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be able to do so. Not just like that, but with proper tools.

Foobar can play HiRes audio files (wav, flac, a.o.) and will send a bit-perfect output to the audio device you enter in the Foobar preferences.

I guess from here it depends if the audio device you use comes with drivers that support HiRes playback through USB. The HiTech device (a USB-to-SPDIF converter) supports sample rates up to 192 kHz and comes with its own drivers so it can stream this high sample rate through usb. The HiTech spdif-output can be connected via a coax cable to the Naim DAC.

Some other brand USB-DACs have a native capability only upto 48kHz/16bit while other USB-DACs go up to 96kHz/24bit depending on the USB-chip & program used in those devices. So if not using a Naim DAC you would have to research to capabilities of those non-Naim DACs.

Mind you the Naim DAC is not a USB DAC, i.e. you cannot connect a computer USB-output directly to the Naim DAC. The Naim DAC requires SPDIF input (coax or optical) or a USB-stick with audio files.

-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by gypsykirk:
mmmm an interesting thing has happened, i've opened itunes and foobar and foobar stop sounding, the little green play icon is now reading 256 samples @ 44100 hz..
Strange, and means nothing to me!
???????

If you have setup a bitperfect replay with exclusive use of the audio device than you can only have one player active. So if you start iTunes first, it will grabb the audio device exclusively and Foobar cannot access the audio device though it will show to be playing.

The "256 samples @ 44100 hz" tells you that the ASIO4ALL device is using a buffer size of 256 samples which are received at a 44.1 kHz sampling frequency.

-
aleg

yeah it said something else was in use....does that mean that itunes is now putting out bit perfect via that asio 4all v2 driver thing???
Cheers Aleg

quote:

Originally posted by gypsykirk:
yeah it said something else was in use....does that mean that itunes is now putting out bit perfect via that asio 4all v2 driver thing???
Cheers Aleg

Again, I don't use iTunes so I'm no expert in setting that up.

But if you have turned off volume control in iTunes (or set it to 100%) and turned off all DSP features (all kinds of features that interfere with sound like EQ's, ReplayGain features, Crossfaders, Upsamplers, Delimiters, Downsamplers, and whatever more you can think of), I guess you might be getting there.

But there are probably more knowledgable people here, who truly know how to setup iTunes for bit-perfect replay.

ASIO4ALL is at least letting you bypass the Windows mixer, so that won't interfere.

I assume you are using XP or otherwise on Vista or Windows 7 you could use the WASAPI device in exclusive mode to bypass the audio mixer, and you wouldn't need to use the ASIO4ALL drivers.

-
aleg

It's a fine guide but you still have to listen and compare. There's more to this than bits.

Aleg, my biggest issue with Foobar is that it doesn't support wav tags for it's library. I think it's as good as any PC player I've heard outside Wavelab but I'm not a FLAC fan. Like you said, it plays wav fine but have you found a way to use them with the Foobar interface? I'd think there would be an open source plugin by now in and app like this. Easy enough to play from a file level with Foobar as default but not really what folks are looking to do.

gypsykirk, as I mentioned,an easy way to use Foobar with wav is to set as default player for wav files access you music files directly in my documents and just play from there. It will even play entire albums or sequences if you select the correct views. No artwork etc. but the music you want as you want it. I would find a dedicated ASIO driver and stay away from ASIO4all which is basically a modified kernel streamer. I think the program specific kernel streamers better. Dedicated ASIO vs dedicated kernel will be close and dependant on program and setup. This is all for XP. for later systems, WASAPI exclusive should be the best interface but I haven't tried. I only offer all this because your comparison and listening results fall into line with what I've heard so perhaps some of this will help though things will become more subtle at this point. The DAC/interface will become more important to descern as you move forward.

Yeah, i've itunes set up properly, as good as it gets, eq off, volume up, sound check, enhancer crossfade off......
i just thought the drivers didn't work with pc cos there was no setup in dcs guide and only for mac.
tbh, I think all logical reasoning is beginning to suggest to me to keep my archival in flac, delete my wav and make aiff from flac then import to itunes....and be done with it!!! lol

Part of why I like streamers. I can still use wav, not worry about setup, mixers, interfaces and just hit play.

Itunes is using the mixer in Windows XP. Not sure if WASAPI exclusive is available for Itunes in later itterations of Windows but that would be the preferred method.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
...
Aleg, my biggest issue with Foobar is that it doesn't support wav tags for it's library. I think it's as good as any PC player I've heard outside Wavelab but I'm not a FLAC fan. Like you said, it plays wav fine but have you found a way to use them with the Foobar interface? I'd think there would be an open source plugin by now in and app like this. Easy enough to play from a file level with Foobar as default but not really what folks are looking to do.

JS

Unfortunately I still have not found anything. AFAIK the people who develop for Foobar are still having an 'issue' with tags not being part of the WAV-spec, which is not completely true. And I also think they mostly use some form of compression and don't think it important enough.

Most of my music is still in flac and I only use Foobar on my desktop PC, listening through my H/K PC speakers, so I don't mind listening to flac in those circumstances.

My Naim is at the moment fed by a Linux box with the mpd player and the mpd-player is able to read the WAV-tags. So it could be worthwhile for the SQ on my Naim setup to convert to WAV, but I'm still hesitant to do so and loose out on the tags when using my Desktop PC.

Also I hope to buy a UnitiServe or like in not to distant future and I am also not quite certain how the Naim Music Management will handle tags on wav or if it will prefer tags from flac.

So probably in the end I won't do any conversion to WAV until I've got a new or definitive streamer setup and know how it will handle things.

Cheers

Aleg