The new Naim DAC

Well - I have managed to wait 10 pages before adding my own brief comment.

Don

Thanks for the comments regarding your actual demo of the prototype unit. It is always nice to hear from someone who has actually heard the damn thing.

I would be very interested in a Naim DAC HOWEVER if in order to achieve maximum musical performance one of the requirements is to also purchase a HDX than things are starting to get a bit out of control (ie HDX/DAC/555PS) - thats starting to approach CD555 price territory.

There needs to be a way to access ones files from devices other than the HDX (ie what Linn have done with their streamers) and have maximum musical performance. I do not want to purchase a $9K box just to serve up my music files. Just my two cents.

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by 555:

quote:

you gotta tell me ...

DAC/Duck Soup

ahhhhh. very good Sir.

rega1

quote:

I would be very interested in a Naim DAC HOWEVER if in order to achieve maximum musical performance one of the requirements is to also purchase a HDX than things are starting to get a bit out of control (ie HDX/DAC/555PS) - thats starting to approach CD555 price territory.

There needs to be a way to access ones files from devices other than the HDX

It isn't mandatory to buy an HDX. There are lots of ways to create files of music and store them other than with an HDX. And for many people this will be perfectly adequate.

I have no doubt that the Naim DAC will do as good a job as many at decoding these files into an analogue signal.

I'm also sure that there will soon be lots of talk on this forum of suitable (cheaper) equipment/systems, other than an HDX, to RIP/store/replay digitally stored music. Not everybody agrees that Naim's CDX2 is the best cd player at its price-point, nor that it is a mandatory source for cd replay in a 252/300 system. Could be the same with the HDX.

Perhaps

cheers

Don

Gregg,

As Don says there are a multitude of ways over sending your music to the DAC. The problem with a "DAC", is that unless it is a streamer, the weak link in the system is always going to be the link from the computer source to the DAC. This is why and I'm not surprised at all by the fact that Don found the HDX dig out as the source to be vastly superior to the MAC. Contrary opinions noted.

If the DAC is converted to a streamer with appropriate electronics, software, ethernet connection, etc.. then that's a different story. Until Naim does this with the DAC or produces another product, then as Don aptly points out you will need another source that can give you a dig out signal better than what your computer can to up the ante.

No surprise to me that this is now or will be revealed with further audition of the DAC as it goes towards production. As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Hi Ken

Nice to hear from you again - how's the wiring/cable installation and Power Cords??

Cheers

Don

hi don,

finished. too busy enjoying the music now. powerlines are awesome and extremely good value for money.

enjoy
ken

I've heard a number of pre production units from Naim over the years because until now, we've been near the US distriubtor and not one matched the performance of the finished product. That it already is reported to sound very good is extremely encouraging.

Amazing, isn't it; 10 pages and 283 posts, yet you can count the number of contributors who actually heard the DAC at the Bristol show on the fingers of one hand.

Well, I actually attended the final session on Saturday, but have not had time to read through this thread until now, hence my delayed posting. Rupert Bear's and Don Atkinson's comments pretty much reflect my experience of the dem. A couple of details I would add that may perhaps have been overlooked:-

1) Doug Graham made no secret about the fact that the system in use was a top-line system. Therefore, in the context of such a system, it made sense, in Naim's opinion, to power the DAC with the best available power supply, ie. 555PSU.

2) The DAC itself is, as has been pointed out, still in development and its specification has by no means been finalised. For this reason it is entirely understandable that Doug would not take questions about the DAC itself. The only thing he did say was that when it was demmed with the HDX as a source, it was connected using spdif.

3) Doug pointed out that there were many possible settings on the MacBook and that it was felt that the optimum settings were used to get the best sound possible.

To try and get into technical specifics about the kit, as some have suggested up-thread, is IMO to miss the point entirely. The point, as I see it, was to demonstrate the extent to which the new DAC could acquit itself in a high-end Naim system. I felt it did so very well indeed. It should be acknowledged, however, that production models will have their own internal power supply - and in the context of prospective owners' own individual systems, an external PSU may not be necessary. However, the option is there, and it is to Naim's credit that this is the case.

I think that on the basis of what I heard on Saturday at the show, Naim are on to a pretty good thing here and that the production model will sound even better than what we heard at the dem.

Bravo Naim.

Hi Don

Perhaps I should clarify - I am referring to using the HDX for the ripping,storage and distribution of music files in order to achieve maximum performance from the Naim DAC.

I was not convinced by Naims initial claim that their ripping engine is the "be all and end all" of rippers. I believe that solutions such as EAC can easily accomplish the same thing (and most likely even surpass). As such I am fully confident in Rips which are obtained by other means rather than via the HDX and I do not require it (HDX) to digitize my music.

What I am concerned with is that the Naim DAC "requires" a HDX to "serve up" the files in order to maximize its performance. Linn, for example, can achieve maximum performance by using a readily available NAS controlled by various open source software solutions. I want to be able to extract maximum performance from a Naim DAC without being tied to their proprietary ripping and serving hardware.

Regards
Gregg

Firstly I thought we would be listening to a new speaker on the tenth floor!

I haven't read all the posts on this topic but I was at the 1230pm demo on Friday and have to say the HDX with the 555ps sounded very good but then with the prototype DAC powered by the 555ps it was even better.

As Doug emphasised this was a PROTOTYPE dac and it may well improve before its final release.

It certainly blew the MAC away.

As for the comment about costs approaching the higher end CD players I think we need to consider that the HDX is the beginning of a new method of replay. Whilst it may be true that a 555 cd player or even a cds3 etc will outperform the HDX\DAC\555ps combo as it currently stands it will no doubt improve over time.

What happens if\when cd transports are no longer made by Philips or SOny et al because of the shift towards downloads. CD discs themselves may not be made apart from some specialist producers. I think the HDX may become the norm in the long run rather than the alternative to cd players.

The other factor is convenience and there is no doubt that the HDX route is more convenient than several hundred CD cases etc etc. particularly when I may only play a couple of tracks from some of them.

I agree a cheaper\smaller Naim DAC to work with a pc would have been nice and it may come in time.

However, Naim are working at getting the best they can from ripped files and the results are imho pretty good. The HDX is an upgradeable source which offers high quality and convenience. Like the rest of the Naim range I think it will get better over time.

I think we should be grateful Naim are pushing the boundaries whilst still supporting the original equipment they produced.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

Gary

You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

Gregg

Forgot to add that I disagree with Don Atkinson in one particular respect - the sound of the HDX/DAC and MacBook/DAC was, I thought, remarkably similar and I found it difficult to distinguish between the two. Perhaps that's an indication of the extent to which the new Naim DAC was able to improve on the MacBook's output...

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc....

To say the least...!

quote:

Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
I think we should be grateful Naim are pushing the boundaries whilst still supporting the original equipment they produced.

(Insert smiley falling off chair whilst laughing his socks off)...I think you need to get out more!

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Well Barrie, I wonder how much of this was brought on by the furore caused last year by a certain alternative DAC. Maybe, just maybe, it has caused Naim to rather focus more acutely rather than keep saying we are thinking about it.

Very little indeed. Naim product development tends to be long-term and measured. We cannot respond to every fashion but we would be foolish not to keep on top of how the market appears to be changing.

The NaimNet work was primarily intended for the Custom Install market. Lessons learnt there spilled over into the HDX - a product which can stand in either camp. Work with Bentley has given us experience with new hardware and techniques. These, Naim R&D and additional highly expert personnel promise some fascinating future products.

A DAC project was not of particular interest when it was just (as requested) "stick the DAC from a CDS3 in a Stageline box". Experience and opportunity (we HAVE produced quite a few products lately) have recently come together, allowing us to produce something which we think is worthwhile.

The Lavry "furore" has been just the most vocal manifestation of a general market trend - please keep this in proportion.

How about some details?

1) Is there a Naim transport on the way?
2) Is there a clock output?
3) What is the D/A technology? Brown Burr?
4) What is the frequency of the clock?
5) I take it, it don't stream via Naimnet?

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

Gary

You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

Gregg

And what does that Linn DS cost? It sounded good because of the DS player software and DAC. Still costs more than a HDX (player software), DAC and 555ps together and without the ripper. If you've used EAC, it's not as convenient nor is it for everyone as many here have noted issues with it. I'm fine with it but home audio is for more than nerds like us. Poeple can buy a DS if they like it more but it certainly won't be for savings or convenience. Can't have everything. No it's not a transporter with DS performance for $2000. Don't hold your breath.

The notion that you can't get good performance from a computer is not the issue here, just that it difficult to do and really shouldn't ultimately be as good as a dedicated player. I can assure that I can get a lot from a laptop but not in the way many here care to. Perhaps it isn't the DAC's issue that it may sounds better with the HDX than a MAC, assuming it does, as that seems to still be in question by those that have listened. It's the same as with the DS. There's no computer OS, audio card, etc. in the loop to sort out or bypass.

quote:

Originally posted by js:QUOTE]Originally posted by glevethan:
And what does that Linn DS cost?

Well - The Klimax lists for about $18K however there is a promo going on which puts it at $16K - about the same price as the HDX/555PS. The Akurate DS is about $6K - significantly less than the HDX - and most likely less than the upcoming DAC/PS.

I realize that you are a former Linn dealer however you should try and find the opportunity to have a listen - it might surprise you.

Don't get me wrong - I for one hope that this thing sounds great. I just don't want to be tied down using a $9K HDX to feed it in order to give me the performance that I want. Easier to just stick with my CDS3/555PS - and I don't have to bother ripping 1500 CD's - or digitizing 3500 LP's

Gregg

Gregg,

What you heard cost $18K to produce the music which you enjoyed. Using the computer to rip the music via EAC is just the start of the process. A lot has to happen after that file is sent via packets of data to the Klimax DS unit to process the bits and ultimately deliver the performance that you heard. I don't know all of the technical bits about how all this works, but this appears to be what you are leaving out of the equation.

This is what has confused me over the last 5 months since I started my eductaion with the guys from Promusica and listening for hours to numerous combinations of ripping software, clocking mechanisms,clocking mechanisms with separate power supplies, DACs,modified dacs,Sonos/pre, Sonos/SN DAC, SB3, A2D recorded files, A2D using superline TC K8, A2D superline Nagra,A2D Nagra/HC power supply, HDX, HDX +/- psus, HDX ripped files,Apple lossless, EAC, wavelab,Mac/DAC, PC/DAC, PC/TC/DAC, 24 bit masters, etc... week after week. I don't think I forgot anything.

What did I learn?

1.That it is possible today to achieve some very very good audiophile quality music using computer playback. I'm sure it will get even better with further development.

2.24 bit blows away 16 bit-- assuming a good recording.

3.Everything in the system and the way it interacts is important and effects the final result. That is all the factors listed above.

4.Computer source (PC/MAC) to the DAC is the weakest link and the computers drivers need to be bypassed. I know it's more complicated than this , but this is a noticeable breakdown point.

5.That the best quality music was generated, unfortunately, by the most expensive pieces of kit, not just the D2A parts, but also in the A2D recording and subsequent playback. You would believe the cost of all of the components of what it took to make those amazing vinyl A2D recordings that I heard played back throughtthe HDX and Nagra.

I know I'm rambling, so I'll conclude by saying that after what I've listened to during the last 5 months can be best summed up:

There is no free lunch as they say.

I ordered an HDX today. Should be at the dealer on Friday. The ability to upgrade the HDX with a PSU and then add a DAC, whether it's this one or a better Naim DAC in the works, sold me.

Gregg, in your position, I'd just play that combo and . I still have doubts that you can get there with cd rips unless you spend that sort of coin or are willing to make compromises in playback utility but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I've heard the DS but not in a position where I could really tell it's overall goodness. I'm sure it's good.

quote:

Originally posted by busaganashi:
I ordered an HDX today. Should be at the dealer on Friday. The ability to upgrade the HDX with a PSU and then add a DAC, whether it's this one or a better Naim DAC in the works, sold me.

well,well. you all must have space like in heaven. it climbes up to 3 boxes all together... my tt does it in one piece and still much more convincing ( but that´s a different story i agree ). the 3 box solution might be good for the company and for the "LEGO-BOY" mentality. but is that not a bit turn off , when it comes to the idea of providing music in the end ?

still the esoteric here holds the throne with it´s 5 box solution. but in the end also the presentation somehow disapointed. at least i don´t expect that from naim at all...

Pylod,
Vinyl is certainly a different medium. But does it require only one "box"? Usually vinyl requires a phono pre-amp at least plus power supply, etc.

Is it the number of boxes or the sound itself that dissapointed.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

...What I am concerned with is that the Naim DAC "requires" a HDX to "serve up" the files in order to maximize its performance. Linn, for example, can achieve maximum performance by using a readily available NAS controlled by various open source software solutions. I want to be able to extract maximum performance from a Naim DAC without being tied to their proprietary ripping and serving hardware.

Regards
Gregg

Hi Gregg,

You (we) just can not know how other digital players like the Linn or other DACs would sound using HDX rips or a HDX as a transport. At least theoretically it is possible that even those other devices would sound some ways better as much as the HDX-based system sounded better for some than the Mac-based. It is easily possbible that HDX is really special as a source.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

Gary

You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

Gregg

Gregg,

one more note.

Naim probably used the HDX as a best transport IN HOUSE. Better than using and n-Vi or a DVD5 to show the capability in a maximised config. Nothing else. I do not think their HDX demo suggest it is the best or only way to use it. It probably suggets it is the best way, at the moment using IN HOUSE components.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
No hard disks required - solid state music: excellent.

ATB Rotf

If you have a tiny music collection!
I'm not that up on Nanos, but am guessing you would be limited to about 70 CDs worth?

I am amazed at the knocking going on here - "We want a Naim dac but not that one". No pleasing some people.

Re those contributors wanting a Naim dac to work with their pc - well the new one will work with a pc - how else did they demo it with a Mac book??!

Let's be realistic,I don't feel we can complain at Naim for doing the R&D and producing a dac that will improve the performance of other equipment in their own rangerather than something smaller\cheaper aimed at a less good pc source.

Obviously, the topic for another thread if it doesn't exist already but, if we want a cheap(er) solution rather than a larger expensive Naim box we will have to look at the Beresford, Russ Andrews, Cambridge Audui Dac magic or similar sized and priced dacs.

I have a Beresford and a Dacmagic and they both work quite well feeding wav files from my pc to a NAC72\hicap\140\nsat system in my office or to my main set downstairs via an Airport Express for background listening

I wouldn't expect these cheaper smaller dacs to work very well in the context of an HDX feeding a very revealing 552 500 SL2 system which was what Naim were using at Bristol.

quote:

Originally posted by Cjones:
How about some details?

1) Is there a Naim transport on the way?
2) Is there a clock output?
3) What is the D/A technology? Brown Burr?
4) What is the frequency of the clock?
5) I take it, it don't stream via Naimnet?

Yes I wonder about the exact same thing. A HDX sans hard discs sans CD ripper would be perfect.

After 1.5 years of trial and error with DACs (Lavry/ benchmark, etc.) and Squeezebox network clients, finally settled with the Transporter, I suspect there is a certain level of coherence offered by a network client done right that is difficult to achieve with external DACs.

I suspect the issue is with clock synchronization, without external clock sync you might as well go for a single box solution.

While a standalone DAC from Naim is very attractive, I would even be more interested in a standalone stripped down HDX. Something similar to the Linn DS or Transporter clients.

I would be surprised if Naim is not developing one. They already have all the parts. Any insider’s information whether there is one surfacing in the next announcement?