The new Naim DAC

Forgot to add that I disagree with Don Atkinson in one particular respect - the sound of the HDX/DAC and MacBook/DAC was, I thought, remarkably similar and I found it difficult to distinguish between the two. Perhaps that's an indication of the extent to which the new Naim DAC was able to improve on the MacBook's output...

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc....

To say the least...!

quote:

Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
I think we should be grateful Naim are pushing the boundaries whilst still supporting the original equipment they produced.

(Insert smiley falling off chair whilst laughing his socks off)...I think you need to get out more!

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Well Barrie, I wonder how much of this was brought on by the furore caused last year by a certain alternative DAC. Maybe, just maybe, it has caused Naim to rather focus more acutely rather than keep saying we are thinking about it.

Very little indeed. Naim product development tends to be long-term and measured. We cannot respond to every fashion but we would be foolish not to keep on top of how the market appears to be changing.

The NaimNet work was primarily intended for the Custom Install market. Lessons learnt there spilled over into the HDX - a product which can stand in either camp. Work with Bentley has given us experience with new hardware and techniques. These, Naim R&D and additional highly expert personnel promise some fascinating future products.

A DAC project was not of particular interest when it was just (as requested) "stick the DAC from a CDS3 in a Stageline box". Experience and opportunity (we HAVE produced quite a few products lately) have recently come together, allowing us to produce something which we think is worthwhile.

The Lavry "furore" has been just the most vocal manifestation of a general market trend - please keep this in proportion.

How about some details?

1) Is there a Naim transport on the way?
2) Is there a clock output?
3) What is the D/A technology? Brown Burr?
4) What is the frequency of the clock?
5) I take it, it don't stream via Naimnet?

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

Gary

You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

Gregg

And what does that Linn DS cost? It sounded good because of the DS player software and DAC. Still costs more than a HDX (player software), DAC and 555ps together and without the ripper. If you've used EAC, it's not as convenient nor is it for everyone as many here have noted issues with it. I'm fine with it but home audio is for more than nerds like us. Poeple can buy a DS if they like it more but it certainly won't be for savings or convenience. Can't have everything. No it's not a transporter with DS performance for $2000. Don't hold your breath.

The notion that you can't get good performance from a computer is not the issue here, just that it difficult to do and really shouldn't ultimately be as good as a dedicated player. I can assure that I can get a lot from a laptop but not in the way many here care to. Perhaps it isn't the DAC's issue that it may sounds better with the HDX than a MAC, assuming it does, as that seems to still be in question by those that have listened. It's the same as with the DS. There's no computer OS, audio card, etc. in the loop to sort out or bypass.

quote:

Originally posted by js:QUOTE]Originally posted by glevethan:
And what does that Linn DS cost?

Well - The Klimax lists for about $18K however there is a promo going on which puts it at $16K - about the same price as the HDX/555PS. The Akurate DS is about $6K - significantly less than the HDX - and most likely less than the upcoming DAC/PS.

I realize that you are a former Linn dealer however you should try and find the opportunity to have a listen - it might surprise you.

Don't get me wrong - I for one hope that this thing sounds great. I just don't want to be tied down using a $9K HDX to feed it in order to give me the performance that I want. Easier to just stick with my CDS3/555PS - and I don't have to bother ripping 1500 CD's - or digitizing 3500 LP's

Gregg

Gregg,

What you heard cost $18K to produce the music which you enjoyed. Using the computer to rip the music via EAC is just the start of the process. A lot has to happen after that file is sent via packets of data to the Klimax DS unit to process the bits and ultimately deliver the performance that you heard. I don't know all of the technical bits about how all this works, but this appears to be what you are leaving out of the equation.

This is what has confused me over the last 5 months since I started my eductaion with the guys from Promusica and listening for hours to numerous combinations of ripping software, clocking mechanisms,clocking mechanisms with separate power supplies, DACs,modified dacs,Sonos/pre, Sonos/SN DAC, SB3, A2D recorded files, A2D using superline TC K8, A2D superline Nagra,A2D Nagra/HC power supply, HDX, HDX +/- psus, HDX ripped files,Apple lossless, EAC, wavelab,Mac/DAC, PC/DAC, PC/TC/DAC, 24 bit masters, etc... week after week. I don't think I forgot anything.

What did I learn?

1.That it is possible today to achieve some very very good audiophile quality music using computer playback. I'm sure it will get even better with further development.

2.24 bit blows away 16 bit-- assuming a good recording.

3.Everything in the system and the way it interacts is important and effects the final result. That is all the factors listed above.

4.Computer source (PC/MAC) to the DAC is the weakest link and the computers drivers need to be bypassed. I know it's more complicated than this , but this is a noticeable breakdown point.

5.That the best quality music was generated, unfortunately, by the most expensive pieces of kit, not just the D2A parts, but also in the A2D recording and subsequent playback. You would believe the cost of all of the components of what it took to make those amazing vinyl A2D recordings that I heard played back throughtthe HDX and Nagra.

I know I'm rambling, so I'll conclude by saying that after what I've listened to during the last 5 months can be best summed up:

There is no free lunch as they say.

I ordered an HDX today. Should be at the dealer on Friday. The ability to upgrade the HDX with a PSU and then add a DAC, whether it's this one or a better Naim DAC in the works, sold me.

Gregg, in your position, I'd just play that combo and . I still have doubts that you can get there with cd rips unless you spend that sort of coin or are willing to make compromises in playback utility but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I've heard the DS but not in a position where I could really tell it's overall goodness. I'm sure it's good.

quote:

Originally posted by busaganashi:
I ordered an HDX today. Should be at the dealer on Friday. The ability to upgrade the HDX with a PSU and then add a DAC, whether it's this one or a better Naim DAC in the works, sold me.

well,well. you all must have space like in heaven. it climbes up to 3 boxes all together... my tt does it in one piece and still much more convincing ( but that´s a different story i agree ). the 3 box solution might be good for the company and for the "LEGO-BOY" mentality. but is that not a bit turn off , when it comes to the idea of providing music in the end ?

still the esoteric here holds the throne with it´s 5 box solution. but in the end also the presentation somehow disapointed. at least i don´t expect that from naim at all...

Pylod,
Vinyl is certainly a different medium. But does it require only one "box"? Usually vinyl requires a phono pre-amp at least plus power supply, etc.

Is it the number of boxes or the sound itself that dissapointed.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

...What I am concerned with is that the Naim DAC "requires" a HDX to "serve up" the files in order to maximize its performance. Linn, for example, can achieve maximum performance by using a readily available NAS controlled by various open source software solutions. I want to be able to extract maximum performance from a Naim DAC without being tied to their proprietary ripping and serving hardware.

Regards
Gregg

Hi Gregg,

You (we) just can not know how other digital players like the Linn or other DACs would sound using HDX rips or a HDX as a transport. At least theoretically it is possible that even those other devices would sound some ways better as much as the HDX-based system sounded better for some than the Mac-based. It is easily possbible that HDX is really special as a source.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

Gary

You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

Gregg

Gregg,

one more note.

Naim probably used the HDX as a best transport IN HOUSE. Better than using and n-Vi or a DVD5 to show the capability in a maximised config. Nothing else. I do not think their HDX demo suggest it is the best or only way to use it. It probably suggets it is the best way, at the moment using IN HOUSE components.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
No hard disks required - solid state music: excellent.

ATB Rotf

If you have a tiny music collection!
I'm not that up on Nanos, but am guessing you would be limited to about 70 CDs worth?

I am amazed at the knocking going on here - "We want a Naim dac but not that one". No pleasing some people.

Re those contributors wanting a Naim dac to work with their pc - well the new one will work with a pc - how else did they demo it with a Mac book??!

Let's be realistic,I don't feel we can complain at Naim for doing the R&D and producing a dac that will improve the performance of other equipment in their own rangerather than something smaller\cheaper aimed at a less good pc source.

Obviously, the topic for another thread if it doesn't exist already but, if we want a cheap(er) solution rather than a larger expensive Naim box we will have to look at the Beresford, Russ Andrews, Cambridge Audui Dac magic or similar sized and priced dacs.

I have a Beresford and a Dacmagic and they both work quite well feeding wav files from my pc to a NAC72\hicap\140\nsat system in my office or to my main set downstairs via an Airport Express for background listening

I wouldn't expect these cheaper smaller dacs to work very well in the context of an HDX feeding a very revealing 552 500 SL2 system which was what Naim were using at Bristol.

quote:

Originally posted by Cjones:
How about some details?

1) Is there a Naim transport on the way?
2) Is there a clock output?
3) What is the D/A technology? Brown Burr?
4) What is the frequency of the clock?
5) I take it, it don't stream via Naimnet?

Yes I wonder about the exact same thing. A HDX sans hard discs sans CD ripper would be perfect.

After 1.5 years of trial and error with DACs (Lavry/ benchmark, etc.) and Squeezebox network clients, finally settled with the Transporter, I suspect there is a certain level of coherence offered by a network client done right that is difficult to achieve with external DACs.

I suspect the issue is with clock synchronization, without external clock sync you might as well go for a single box solution.

While a standalone DAC from Naim is very attractive, I would even be more interested in a standalone stripped down HDX. Something similar to the Linn DS or Transporter clients.

I would be surprised if Naim is not developing one. They already have all the parts. Any insider’s information whether there is one surfacing in the next announcement?

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
Pylod,
Vinyl is certainly a different medium. But does it require only one "box"? Usually vinyl requires a phono pre-amp at least plus power supply, etc.

Is it the number of boxes or the sound itself that dissapointed.

it is clearly the number of boxes for me...it seems not to bother the others, so who cares

i asked once for the possibility of a one box 252/250/ superline )...

i think the unity is great for example...all in one neat box...why not an hdx with a better dac inside ? and bigger discs, that you don´t need to attach something at all..it´s still this gadget around think.so soon the hdx will be an battle station.you know, that when you offer someone an better solution people goes for that here. i would prefer an hdx, wich doesn´t need something around to improve it. simple one box. so evil apple might be . they understood the principle of compact

quote:

I prefer to see the forum as MY BEST WAY to communicate with Naim (particularly their R&D department), I cannot trust my dealer to pass on all my views (or indeed any, they are busy people) and personal emails would probably end up in a 'comments bin' folder somewhere in customer relations at Naim. With all due respect to other members, I'm not really speaking to you, I'm speaking to Naim (and please, for all the members who do not like what I say, don't take it personally).

Adam,

This is a great idea, can you think about opening up a "wish-list room", then folks could post-their wishes/ideas for your R&D dept to read directly, saves your guys time having to read through countless messages, and helps the posters avoid getting embroilled in debate, over things that they did not intended to be debated.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
:


This all leads me to say, that the other product that could be a real winner for Naim is the 'mashing' together of the two known products, i.e the HDX sans HD's but much better DAC on board. Now that would really perk my interest.



just my tuppence worth!

and now ?..you don´t want hds in the hdx and i want larger ones..at least we both vote for a better dac onboard

quote:

and now ?..you don´t want hds in the hdx and i want larger ones..at least we both vote for a better dac onboard

Great stuff

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Another issue for me, but not necessarily fundamental, was I like the iTunes interface, I very much like using an iPod Touch to see what is available in my collection, it's simple and it's slick, and moreover, it works faultlessly. I do not want to sit with a tablet or laptop on my lap to control my music, I want something in one hand that quickly gets me around music selection.

This all leads me to say, that the other product that could be a real winner for Naim is the 'mashing' together of the two known products, i.e the HDX sans HD's but much better DAC on board. Now that would really perk my interest.

I couldn't agree more Allen. The large number of people who're now familiar with the slickness of iTunes plus those who love iTouch/iPhone accessibility to their music would be far more amenable to buy into this idea should Naim implement it.

It would certainly float my boat!

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
I prefer to see the forum as MY BEST WAY to communicate with Naim (particularly their R&D department))

I'm absolutely sure Naim's R&D are hanging off every post in this forum, just looking for that direction or idea they haven't yet thought of....Much like Jonathan Ive at Apple monitoring Mac Rumors for his next piece of inspiration no doubt.....!

I was at the show on saturday. I must say it was the stand out demonstration at the show and the best one Naim have done in the 5 years I have been going (IMO)
For me it great to hear hard disc based music through a high end system. I am very much in the market for a DAC, having sold my CDX2 and now have my library ripped to a Mac Mini.
From where I was sitting in the room, I thought the mac book/DAC/555 stood up very well to the HDX/DAC/555. The HDX was better, with marginally improved clarity of for instance the instruments, but it was very close. My friend who was with me who doesn't own any naim equipment said he couldn't hear any difference.
All in all very excited at the prospect of the Naim DAC, but hope they use the reference series cases. My XPS2 will be able to be put to good use again if it out performs my current DAC.
Well done Naim for a superb show.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Gregg, in your position, I'd just play that combo and . I still have doubts that you can get there with cd rips unless you spend that sort of coin or are willing to make compromises in playback utility but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I've heard the DS but not in a position where I could really tell it's overall goodness. I'm sure it's good.

Agree with those comments. I think the computer stuff has come a long way and from what we've heard alot was in the last 12-months or so.

Gregg, my opinion like JS is that your going to need to shell out a lot of $$ to get what you want from digital playback and it may not even get there given your set-up.

Have you listened to the other 2 bits from Linn the Sneaky DS and Majik DS which are I believe just under $2K and slightly above $3K respectively at Dave's place? I'd be curious if you had and what your thoughts are in comparison to the Klimax, Akurate, your kit. There has got to be a reason that they range from $2K-$18K. I have tried to get a listen, but since PM are not Linn dealers it would have to be at the Linn dealers who have other gear and then try and get one for the weekend either for my home or early enough on a Saturday to take to PM and hook up. This has proven to be a tough proposition to even get the dealer to call me when they have one available for demo.

While we'll have to wait any see what shakes out and maybe we'll be proven wrong, but at this point I don't think that a single $1K-3K box with the source being the computer is going to get you what YOU want in terms of music.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Paul did confirm some time ago that you could use a Nokia (I think) mini tablet that could do that, but that was £2k (I think) on top of the cost of the HDX.

http://www.memory-express.co.uk/index.aspx?pageid=17&id...N810+Internet+Tablet for example.

Perhaps the batteries are very expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
Pylod,
Vinyl is certainly a different medium. But does it require only one "box"? Usually vinyl requires a phono pre-amp at least plus power supply, etc.

Is it the number of boxes or the sound itself that dissapointed.

Plus the arm/cartridge etc... (oh and I forgot Dr. P from Cymbiosis- and I mean that with respect for what he does).

I'll admit that the best vinyl replay is amazing, but you really need to hear how good 24 bit A2D recorded vinyl files sound played back using the Nagra/HC or HDX.