The new Naim DAC

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:


Adam,

This is a great idea, can you think about opening up a "wish-list room", then folks could post-their wishes/ideas for your R&D dept to read directly.

Barrie

Barrie, I'm sure they have got nothing better to do than read e-mails all day long. Do that and nothing will come to market.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AllenB:
you could use a Nokia (I think) mini tablet that could do that, but that was £2k (I think) on top of the cost of the HDX.

QUOTE]

Allen, an internet tablet can be used a cost $2-400 USD depending on which version and maker.
For me the screen size is still too small.

Now you can buy an inexpensive "Notebook Computer" with a larger screen in the same price range.

quote:

Barrie, I'm sure they have got nothing better to do than read e-mails all day long. Do that and nothing will come to market.

Oh dear, and it seemed such a sensible idea too, ah well, back to the bickering then

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
Pylod,
Vinyl is certainly a different medium. But does it require only one "box"? Usually vinyl requires a phono pre-amp at least plus power supply, etc.

Is it the number of boxes or the sound itself that dissapointed.

Plus the arm/cartridge etc... (oh and I forgot Dr. P from Cymbiosis- and I mean that with respect for what he does).

I'll admit that the best vinyl replay is amazing, but you really need to hear how good 24 bit A2D recorded vinyl files sound played back using the Nagra/HC or HDX.

there are more tt then an lp 12 on the world marked, so i don´t need the DOCKTOR..


beside i prefer to see my records spin around instead watch´n a screen blinking...

and what is the point of digitizing your thousends of lp´s then ?

good luck...i prefer to listen to music in the meantime

I feel the same as AllenB, the HDX would have been perfect except a good portion of the price of the unit is probably spent on isolation of the 2 hard discs and the touch screen built into the machine. And another good portion on the CD drive assembly. Not sure how much of parts and R&D cost are attributed to the above, but this is one case when removal of parts would only make it sound better.

Also agree that iTunes integration OR compatibility with SqueezeCenter would attract a whole new population of users, most of which are intimately familiar with LAN based audio clients, yours truly being one of them interested in the Naim solution.

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
what is the point of digitizing your thousends of lp´s then ?

Pylod,

Here's a few:

1. Once their digitized then you don't have to worry as some due that they can be degraded by mold depending upon where you live.

2. You then have the ability for music management of your music, assuming you've broken it down into individual song files.

3. You can manipulate the files to clean themup and sound better.

4. Once the files are on your hard drive, not only can that music be distributed to other listening rooms in your home, but let's say you have another location where you listen to music you can just pick up your hard drive and take your music collection with you or download what you want to a smaller wallet drive and take that with you. Proably at some point you'll be able to access your music from the secondary location and just stream from your primary location.

While this is not for everyone, these are some really valid reasons for digitzing your music. For some the convenience will outweigh the ultimate performance depending on equipment used. Others will not want to compromise their music and will take all steps to make it equal or better and it will get there and from some stuff I've heard its there. Remember the Superline took vinyl replay to another level. I've heard all different combos of vinyl, A2D, ripped, 24 bit with and without Superline, Nagra and you'd be surprised.

Just my 2 pence.. I was at the show on Saturday and listened to the DAC dem. First off I must confess that I was not that interested in the DAC. A DAC is not a product that I can ever see on my wish list, so I guess I had a reasonably open mind.

First off Doug played a great track by Blues ????? Something great music and sounded very good IMHO through the HDX into 552 (I think) 500 and SL2s plus sub. This is about the best that I’ve heard SL2s sound. They had much more body and weight than the other occasions. This all seemed positive as I understood this was the starting point and that various upgrades and black boxes would be added for us to enjoy.

The first upgrade was to add a 555 PS to the HDX. This IMO was a bit of a double edged sword. There was more information but at some expense to the music. Instruments had more separation but there was an uneasy edge to the presentation that was not for me. We then had dems of a Mac laptop, the HDX with and without the DAC. By the end of all this I had a slight headache (sorry guys). I preferred the first setup of just HDX without the PS and the new DAC.

The DAC certainly gets a lot more information out of the disc than a bare HDX, it’s just that there was a bit of an audio onslaught at the show.

FWIW I think the 555 PS was not anywhere near warmed up and this could easily have been the culprit on this occasion. Dems at shows are notoriously difficult, for instance I have yet to hear active 500’s outperform a single passive one. I think I also missed the DBLs a bit. The combination of a pair of DBLs and a 500 is a match made in heaven.

A big thanks to all the |Naim guys for putting on yet another brilliant show.

No pleasing some people. It will be a self contained stand alone DAC. You get to choose what and how much you want to connect to it. I think many are confusing the availibilty to upgrade with a need to. Give it a listen before you decide.

I've personally found every moderately priced DAC that I've connected to a HDX make it worse, not better yet the HDX a better digital source than any stand alone computer. These dem reports are as expected and it's nice to know that most thought the MAC still sounded good. Means that there's probably a nice reclocking stage kicking in when needed.

Bob,

although not your cup of tea give it a listen at a dealer when it's really got some burn in etc... Haven't heard the DAC, but with the HDX, then adding the XPS2, then 555PS there really is a big difference.

I finish by saying that NOT ALL WILL AGREEbefore they jump in. Huge difference at the dealer or home.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
....
I was not convinced by Naims initial claim that their ripping engine is the "be all and end all" of rippers. I believe that solutions such as EAC can easily accomplish the same thing (and most likely even surpass). As such I am fully confident in Rips which are obtained by other means rather than via the HDX and I do not require it (HDX) to digitize my music.

What I am concerned with is that the Naim DAC "requires" a HDX to "serve up" the files in order to maximize its performance. Linn, for example, can achieve maximum performance by using a readily available NAS controlled by various open source software solutions. I want to be able to extract maximum performance from a Naim DAC without being tied to their proprietary ripping and serving hardware.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
I would be very interested in a Naim DAC HOWEVER if in order to achieve maximum musical performance one of the requirements is to also purchase a HDX than things are starting to get a bit out of control (ie HDX/DAC/555PS) - that's starting to approach CD555 price territory.

There needs to be a way to access ones files from devices other than the HDX (ie what Linn have done with their streamers) and have maximum musical performance. I do not want to purchase a $9K box just to serve up my music files. Just my two cents.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

I think the elephant in the dem room is - what were the results of running the HDX digital out through the Linn DS?

Not proposed as a cost-effective or even recommended combination but it might say something about the relative quality of the two digital signals being offered to your preferred DAC. If two digital streams of noticeably differing quality are fed to the DS it should be able to show that difference in its output - unless it is able to achieve its maximum performance regardless of source.

Ideally the computer rip would be set-up to the best of your knowledge and the HDX run as recommended. The results could, at last, be informative.

I'm not sure we claim "be all and end all" but we do feel the solution represents the best of the alternatives we tried. One needs to ask - is it possible to obtain different qualities of rip? If so - one should seek (so as not to waste effort) that one's archive rip is as good as can be obtained.

IF Naim can demonstrate better results from the HDX digital out through their DAC then either the HDX does obtain a better rip OR there is some (deliberate?) mechanism whereby the DAC can differentiate between two streams of digits and favour one.

Difficult to see what that mechanism might be or the commercial sense of releasing a standalone DAC which will only relatively rarely be paired with the HDX. It will sell on merit and I do not see why we would hobble its performance with non-HDX sources.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
My mistake I was referring to the naimnet tablet
Now move on.

I knew you wouldn't want the initial, rather negative, impression to stand.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
what is the point of digitizing your thousends of lp´s then ?

Pylod,

Here's a few:

1. Once their digitized then you don't have to worry as some due that they can be degraded by mold depending upon where you live.

2. You then have the ability for music management of your music, assuming you've broken it down into individual song files.

3. You can manipulate the files to clean themup and sound better.

4. Once the files are on your hard drive, not only can that music be distributed to other listening rooms in your home, but let's say you have another location where you listen to music you can just pick up your hard drive and take your music collection with you or download what you want to a smaller wallet drive and take that with you. Proably at some point you'll be able to access your music from the secondary location and just stream from your primary location.

While this is not for everyone, these are some really valid reasons for digitzing your music. For some the convenience will outweigh the ultimate performance depending on equipment used. Others will not want to compromise their music and will take all steps to make it equal or better and it will get there and from some stuff I've heard its there. Remember the Superline took vinyl replay to another level. I've heard all different combos of vinyl, A2D, ripped, 24 bit with and without Superline, Nagra and you'd be surprised.

yes that´s true..this is not for everyone...

i acctually like to go through my record archive... touch records with my hands and put the needle on the black degrading platter. and NO i don´t want my original records to sound better , then they were ment to be.

by the way ..did you consider the costs you talking about ? the nagra and the tt and needle and so on..?

but this thread is about the dac...so i appologize: no vinyl here

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
what is the point of digitizing your thousands of LPs then?

You can get very nice TT dubs with a computer, TC, basic Wavelab program and some good set-up. It just won't be as good as the best available.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
If two digital streams of noticeably differing quality are fed to the DS it should be able to show that difference in its output - unless it is able to achieve its maximum performance regardless of source.

Ideally the computer rip would be set-up to the best of your knowledge and the HDX run as recommended. The results could, at last, be informative.


It will sell on merit and I do not see why we would hobble its performance with non-HDX sources.

Adam

We did a brief comparison (at my dealer) of HDX rips and EAC rips - played back through the HDX. No one could really tell much difference between the two.

As for "the deliberate hobbling of performance with non-HDX sources" - I am in no way implying that and as you have said it does not make much sense for Naim to do so.

I guess what I am saying is that I hope this DAC will be able to provide the performance we all want WHILE ALLOWING THE FREEDOM to use whichever ripping program - whichever means of storage and delivery (Mac-NAS-etc.)- and whichever software control (iTunes etc.) - that the end user desires.

Gregg

I know that - I just couldn't see why you kept on about it HAVING to have the the HDX.

If HDX and Computer rips sounded the same to you then - you shouldn't have any problems trying out the Naim DAC with whatever you use.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan

I guess what I am saying is that I hope this DAC will be able to provide the performance we all want WHILE ALLOWING THE FREEDOM to use whichever ripping program - whichever means of storage and delivery (Mac-NAS-etc.)- and whichever software control (iTunes etc.) - that the end user desires.

Gregg

Gregg, I have no doubt that the Naim DAC when released will provide you with all of the flexibility that you want.

The issue is going to be will the MAC/DAC( +/-PSU) approach provide the same quality of music that can be achieved by using the DAC (+/- PSU) with the HDX.

While I will not prejudge since I have not heard the combinations, if you asked me at this point to venture a guess it is going to be no and that they won't be close at all. Again, contrary to some opinions expressed by those who heard the demo. I find it really baffling that some people thought they were equal and others thought the MAC/DAC far inferior. But everyone hears what they hear and their opinions are valid.

As I said the music that you were impressed with at Accent on Music was with an $18K machine with alot of software and processing going on inside. I'm sure that the Sneaky DS at $2K doesn't compare to the Klimax, nor the Majik DS at $3K+. So given this I would be if Naim's DAC as good as it may be will perform for $3K to CDS3 level being fed by a computer source. Feed it with a PSU and a really good dig out source (HDX or otherwise) and now we'll see, but that also costs about $18K.

quote:

I guess what I am saying is that I hope this DAC will be able to provide the performance we all want WHILE ALLOWING THE FREEDOM to use whichever ripping program - whichever means of storage and delivery (Mac-NAS-etc.)- and whichever software control (iTunes etc.) - that the end user desires.

Gregg,

The basic message at the 10th Floor dem was just that, you could rip/store/deliver to your heart's content using whatever programme/hardware you fancied.

My visualisation took me back about 35 years when Naim ONLY produced amps (12/32 pre and 160/250 power). They simply HAD to accept that sources (t/t, cassette, tape, tuner) would be supplied by other manufacturers and be whatever the owner felt he could afford and whatever they felt sounded good. JV tried to direct customers towards an LP12/Grace/Supex but it wasn't really mandatory - just better than the rest!

I really can't see most business for Naim's DAC comming from HDX owners (especially if the next batch of HDXs gets an improved DAC), most IMHO will come from customers with a desire for flexibility in rip/strorage/delivery systems and a desire for a high quality DAC (and downstream amp/speakers) to make the most of whatever the front-end delivers!!

cheers

Don

IMO if Naim addresses this DAC to computer audio enthusiasts it should have AES/EBU input in addition to USB, optical or SPDIF. This would boost performance potential through the use of high end sound devices for streaming...

quote:

My visualisation took me back about 35 years when Naim ONLY produced amps

That's interesting, one of the thoughts I had over the weekend was very similar - going back to the heart of Naim's range of amplifier, phono stage and its 21st century equivalent - the DAC - leaving speakers and front-ends to others!

quote:

The final part of the Dem saw the HDX removed completely and the same music track supplied from the Mac computer to the DAC/555ps. The sound quality was rubbish - IMHO of course (quite a few others in the dem felt the Mac source was better than the HDX source!!!). Well, not really rubbish, even Naim can make a good effort at getting the best out of a mediocre source. If you want to keep all your music on a memory stick (or similar) and be able to access it via your PC/Mac/i-Player etc etc then I suggest you give this Naim DAC a listen when it comes out. It will probably knock the pants off any other DAC at £2k and probably anything up to twice that price. And if at some stage you want to improve on the DAC, Naim's range of separate power supplies will be perfect partners such that your Naim DAC may never become obsolete.

I though I'd better re-quote this piece that I wrote yesterday.

Perhaps the use of the word "rubbish" might confuse some who don't or can't read the complete text of various posts. I used the word "rubbish" in an attempt to create impact. Nothing more. The subsequent text captures my assessment of the capability of the pre-prototype DAC.

The best analogy I can come up with at present is ....imagine having listened to an LP12 via a 252, then via a 552. We establish the 552 is better than the 252. We now try a Pioneer £500 dvd player through the 552............the dvd is FAR more versatile than the LP12 and therefore attractive to a lot of customers who don't want to be constrained by the vinyl/LP12's lack of functionality/ease of access etc.

But the sound quality of the dvd ??........."rubbish" - well, not really rubbish etc

Get the picture? doesn't mean I think the 552 is "rubbish"

cheers

Don

Hyperbole is always a dangerous thing as it is usually subsequently quoted out of context.

Especially on a Forum.

My biggest bug-bears are "... made the previous arrangement sound broken," and, "... adds another octave of bass to the picture!"

Both total nonesense of, course, and both descending to the level of cheap melodrama for effect ...

;-)

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:

quote:

My visualisation took me back about 35 years when Naim ONLY produced amps

That's interesting, one of the thoughts I had over the weekend was very similar - going back to the heart of Naim's range of amplifier, phono stage and its 21st century equivalent - the DAC - leaving speakers and front-ends to others!

I don't think Naim should leave speakers to others - that would ruin my system, as I wouldn't have any speakers. When you've heard the best then it is difficult to think of anything you'd really want among the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Hyperbole is always a dangerous thing as it is usually subsequently quoted out of context.

Especially on a Forum.

My biggest bug-bears are "... made the previous arrangement sound broken," and, "... adds another octave of bass to the picture!"

Both total nonesense of, course, and both descending to the level of cheap melodrama for effect ...

;-)

ATB from George

Yes George

This is the language of every other hi-fi reviewer, when something new comes out.

But taken with the correct amount of a table condiment, say a pinch, it can be quite amusing at times.

ATB Rotf

Dear ROTF,

I am left wondering how many undiscovered musical octaves are yet to be discovered.

Seems to me that old Bach made full use of the modern range three hiundred years ago really, and even 78 recordings relay this normal musical range with aplomb!

I remeber pointing this out - ever so kindly - to a hif salesman, many years ago. His response was that he would let me listen for myself after that!

But the bulls--t is all too common in reviews, hifi salesmanship, and even occasionally on here from normally sensibly measured posters!

ATB from George

But of course there possiblity of discovering something new
the lost chord

Barrie

PS is that being played on an LP12 ?

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
IMO if Naim addresses this DAC to computer audio enthusiasts it should have AES/EBU input in addition to USB, optical or SPDIF. This would boost performance potential through the use of high end sound devices for streaming...

Why? There is nothing inherently better about AES/EBU and usually involves nothing more than additional circuits in line at the output and input of devices to allow noise rejection on long cable runs. It is still effected by the same cable characteristics, bandwidth limitations and impedences of a non balanced cable and has additional circuitry in line to worry about. I know that some are using the balanced input of their favorite DAC and like it but most doing so are actually doing it incorrectly without a proper level and impedence matching device. It makes a significant difference. You cant just short or float pin 3 from a Spdif. It will probably work but not correctly and is worse than just using the spdif in. Those with AES/EBU sources are fine but there's no advantage over spdif and actually a theoretical disadvantage unless both devices are fully balance in to out. At that point it becomes execution and preference. There are also VG passive matching adapters to go from AES/EBU to Spdif so anyone could use the DAC.