The new Naim DAC
Posted by: rupert bear on 21 February 2009
The 10th floor of the Marriott hosts Doug G's demo of the new DAC. I was lucky to get the last ticket for the last show.
Demo used the HDX, 552/500, and SL2/n-sub. There was a little Mac sitting sweetly on its own bit of Fraim. First the HDX was played, then the HDX with 555PS (obvious vast improvement, as noted here before).
The new DAC was then fitted to the HDX, with the 555PS attached to the DAC instead. MASSIVE improvement, really quite exciting!
Finally the MACbook was introduced and plugged into the DAC/555PS. Also fantastic sound, which does rather make you think of the options - and the ramifications! The HDX/DAC did sound better, of course.
The DAC is in a 5-series case and has an internal p/s (not used at the show if I remember correctly). 5 buttons on the front a locking light (?).
Many thanks to Doug and Jason for the demo.
I'm first on the waiting list.
Demo used the HDX, 552/500, and SL2/n-sub. There was a little Mac sitting sweetly on its own bit of Fraim. First the HDX was played, then the HDX with 555PS (obvious vast improvement, as noted here before).
The new DAC was then fitted to the HDX, with the 555PS attached to the DAC instead. MASSIVE improvement, really quite exciting!
Finally the MACbook was introduced and plugged into the DAC/555PS. Also fantastic sound, which does rather make you think of the options - and the ramifications! The HDX/DAC did sound better, of course.
The DAC is in a 5-series case and has an internal p/s (not used at the show if I remember correctly). 5 buttons on the front a locking light (?).
Many thanks to Doug and Jason for the demo.
I'm first on the waiting list.
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:I guess what I am saying is that I hope this DAC will be able to provide the performance we all want WHILE ALLOWING THE FREEDOM to use whichever ripping program - whichever means of storage and delivery (Mac-NAS-etc.)- and whichever software control (iTunes etc.) - that the end user desires.
Gregg,
The basic message at the 10th Floor dem was just that, you could rip/store/deliver to your heart's content using whatever programme/hardware you fancied.
My visualisation took me back about 35 years when Naim ONLY produced amps (12/32 pre and 160/250 power). They simply HAD to accept that sources (t/t, cassette, tape, tuner) would be supplied by other manufacturers and be whatever the owner felt he could afford and whatever they felt sounded good. JV tried to direct customers towards an LP12/Grace/Supex but it wasn't really mandatory - just better than the rest!
I really can't see most business for Naim's DAC comming from HDX owners (especially if the next batch of HDXs gets an improved DAC), most IMHO will come from customers with a desire for flexibility in rip/strorage/delivery systems and a desire for a high quality DAC (and downstream amp/speakers) to make the most of whatever the front-end delivers!!
cheers
Don
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by goldfinch
IMO if Naim addresses this DAC to computer audio enthusiasts it should have AES/EBU input in addition to USB, optical or SPDIF. This would boost performance potential through the use of high end sound devices for streaming...
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by rupert bear
quote:My visualisation took me back about 35 years when Naim ONLY produced amps
That's interesting, one of the thoughts I had over the weekend was very similar - going back to the heart of Naim's range of amplifier, phono stage and its 21st century equivalent - the DAC - leaving speakers and front-ends to others!
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:The final part of the Dem saw the HDX removed completely and the same music track supplied from the Mac computer to the DAC/555ps. The sound quality was rubbish - IMHO of course (quite a few others in the dem felt the Mac source was better than the HDX source!!!). Well, not really rubbish, even Naim can make a good effort at getting the best out of a mediocre source. If you want to keep all your music on a memory stick (or similar) and be able to access it via your PC/Mac/i-Player etc etc then I suggest you give this Naim DAC a listen when it comes out. It will probably knock the pants off any other DAC at £2k and probably anything up to twice that price. And if at some stage you want to improve on the DAC, Naim's range of separate power supplies will be perfect partners such that your Naim DAC may never become obsolete.
I though I'd better re-quote this piece that I wrote yesterday.
Perhaps the use of the word "rubbish" might confuse some who don't or can't read the complete text of various posts. I used the word "rubbish" in an attempt to create impact. Nothing more. The subsequent text captures my assessment of the capability of the pre-prototype DAC.
The best analogy I can come up with at present is ....imagine having listened to an LP12 via a 252, then via a 552. We establish the 552 is better than the 252. We now try a Pioneer £500 dvd player through the 552............the dvd is FAR more versatile than the LP12 and therefore attractive to a lot of customers who don't want to be constrained by the vinyl/LP12's lack of functionality/ease of access etc.
But the sound quality of the dvd ??........."rubbish" - well, not really rubbish etc
Get the picture? doesn't mean I think the 552 is "rubbish"
cheers
Don
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by u5227470736789439
Hyperbole is always a dangerous thing as it is usually subsequently quoted out of context.
Especially on a Forum.
My biggest bug-bears are "... made the previous arrangement sound broken," and, "... adds another octave of bass to the picture!"
Both total nonesense of, course, and both descending to the level of cheap melodrama for effect ...
;-)
ATB from George
Especially on a Forum.
My biggest bug-bears are "... made the previous arrangement sound broken," and, "... adds another octave of bass to the picture!"
Both total nonesense of, course, and both descending to the level of cheap melodrama for effect ...
;-)
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:Originally posted by rupert bear:quote:My visualisation took me back about 35 years when Naim ONLY produced amps
That's interesting, one of the thoughts I had over the weekend was very similar - going back to the heart of Naim's range of amplifier, phono stage and its 21st century equivalent - the DAC - leaving speakers and front-ends to others!
I don't think Naim should leave speakers to others - that would ruin my system, as I wouldn't have any speakers. When you've heard the best then it is difficult to think of anything you'd really want among the rest.
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Hyperbole is always a dangerous thing as it is usually subsequently quoted out of context.
Especially on a Forum.
My biggest bug-bears are "... made the previous arrangement sound broken," and, "... adds another octave of bass to the picture!"
Both total nonesense of, course, and both descending to the level of cheap melodrama for effect ...
;-)
ATB from George
Yes George
This is the language of every other hi-fi reviewer, when something new comes out.
But taken with the correct amount of a table condiment, say a pinch, it can be quite amusing at times.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear ROTF,
I am left wondering how many undiscovered musical octaves are yet to be discovered.
Seems to me that old Bach made full use of the modern range three hiundred years ago really, and even 78 recordings relay this normal musical range with aplomb!
I remeber pointing this out - ever so kindly - to a hif salesman, many years ago. His response was that he would let me listen for myself after that!
But the bulls--t is all too common in reviews, hifi salesmanship, and even occasionally on here from normally sensibly measured posters!
ATB from George
I am left wondering how many undiscovered musical octaves are yet to be discovered.
Seems to me that old Bach made full use of the modern range three hiundred years ago really, and even 78 recordings relay this normal musical range with aplomb!
I remeber pointing this out - ever so kindly - to a hif salesman, many years ago. His response was that he would let me listen for myself after that!
But the bulls--t is all too common in reviews, hifi salesmanship, and even occasionally on here from normally sensibly measured posters!
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
But of course there possiblity of discovering something new 
the lost chord
Barrie
PS is that being played on an LP12 ?
the lost chord
Barrie
PS is that being played on an LP12 ?
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by js
Why? There is nothing inherently better about AES/EBU and usually involves nothing more than additional circuits in line at the output and input of devices to allow noise rejection on long cable runs. It is still effected by the same cable characteristics, bandwidth limitations and impedences of a non balanced cable and has additional circuitry in line to worry about. I know that some are using the balanced input of their favorite DAC and like it but most doing so are actually doing it incorrectly without a proper level and impedence matching device. It makes a significant difference. You cant just short or float pin 3 from a Spdif. It will probably work but not correctly and is worse than just using the spdif in. Those with AES/EBU sources are fine but there's no advantage over spdif and actually a theoretical disadvantage unless both devices are fully balance in to out. At that point it becomes execution and preference. There are also VG passive matching adapters to go from AES/EBU to Spdif so anyone could use the DAC.quote:Originally posted by goldfinch:
IMO if Naim addresses this DAC to computer audio enthusiasts it should have AES/EBU input in addition to USB, optical or SPDIF. This would boost performance potential through the use of high end sound devices for streaming...
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by gary1 (US)
quote:Originally posted by js:Why? There is nothing inherently better about AES/EBU and usually involves nothing more than additional circuits in line at the output and input of devices to allow noise rejection on long cable runs. It is still effected by the same cable characteristics, bandwidth limitations and impedences of a non balanced cable and has additional circuitry in line to worry about. I know that some are using the balanced input of their favorite DAC and like it but most doing so are actually doing it incorrectly without a proper level and impedence matching device. It makes a significant difference. You cant just short or float pin 3 from a Spdif. It will probably work but not correctly and is worse than just using the spdif in. Those with AES/EBU sources are fine but there's no advantage over spdif and actually a theoretical disadvantage unless both devices are fully balance in to out. At that point it becomes execution and preference. There are also VG passive matching adapters to go from AES/EBU to Spdif so anyone could use the DAC.quote:Originally posted by goldfinch:
IMO if Naim addresses this DAC to computer audio enthusiasts it should have AES/EBU input in addition to USB, optical or SPDIF. This would boost performance potential through the use of high end sound devices for streaming...
Yeah, whatever he said. I agree wholeheartedly!!
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by SC
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
(especially if the next batch of HDXs gets an improved DAC)
Is this speculation, rumour or fact..?
Steve.
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by SC
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
I really can't see most business for Naim's DAC comming from HDX owners....most IMHO will come from customers with a desire for flexibility in rip/strorage/delivery systems and a desire for a high quality DAC (and downstream amp/speakers) to make the most of whatever the front-end delivers!!
Absolutely.
To be honest, I thought this was totally THE point of a standalone DAC from Naim (oh, and the whole rest of the market), hence my confusion about 6 pages back why the HDX came into the conversation at this point - sure, it looks like the DAC will ALSO serve as an upgrade outboard DAC option for HDX users if they hear the performance difference and can justify the extra cost (plus a PSU it seems) - but IMHO it's going to be a very small number of users going this route....Surely the Naim DAC is about getting wider into the digital media market, giving current Naim users a wider range of options of hearing their music and bringing the Naim sound to a hopefully wider audience and in turn bringing them into the fold....?
I am wondering what current HDX owners are thinking right now. The release of a standalone DAC goes against years of Naim arguing against the benefits of such an outboard DAC (preferring the separate PSU) and now that one is coming, and that it seemingly improves the HDX, I personally would be scratching my head a little....
I really like the HDX and it was/is on my shopping list this year, but the more I ponder over everything, the HDX looks increasingly awkward in the range to me....Surely, with hindsight and in light of these separate DAC developments, the HDX as a 'source' should be a player/ripper/streamer, as is (keeping all the qualities it has and the rip quality 'in-house approved'), but without the internal DAC and perhaps without the HD's (content is going to end up on external HD or NAS anyway)...If the internal DAC CAN be improved, as has been shown, then it shouldn't be in there - a bit like a PSU. A range of 3 external DAC's, as different tier points, would seem a better approach to me, personally....?
Too many ways to skin the cat with all this streaming stuff...!
Steve.
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:Originally posted by connon price:
Some differences could also arise from difference between Coax and Optical transmission.
In fairness - the Apple doesn't "sound" with co-ax (I am lead to believe).
Up rather late - just tracked down my first Reggae record - "Skank In Bed" - Scotty & Lorna Bennett This may be available on "Trojan Producer Series Box Set".
Worth (for me) the jaded eyes.
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by glevethan
quote:Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
Up rather late - just tracked down my first Reggae record - "Skank In Bed" - Scotty & Lorna Bennett This may be available on "Trojan Producer Series Box Set".
Worth (for me) the jaded eyes.
Oh no - watch out! My original love for Reggae started in the late 70's as a college kid and then stayed dormant until about 3 months ago. Now 100 LP's later (to go with my orignal 100)
Go buy "The Rough Guide To Reggae" by Steve Barrow - it is the bible.
Better go now otherwise the mod will move my post to the Music section of the forum
Gregg
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by SC
Ooooo, we've gone solo again in the DA room....For a moment there, we were almost HiFi, but alas.....
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by goldfinch
quote:Originally posted by js:Why? There is nothing inherently better about AES/EBU and usually involves nothing more than additional circuits in line at the output and input of devices to allow noise rejection on long cable runs. It is still effected by the same cable characteristics, bandwidth limitations and impedences of a non balanced cable and has additional circuitry in line to worry about. I know that some are using the balanced input of their favorite DAC and like it but most doing so are actually doing it incorrectly without a proper level and impedence matching device. It makes a significant difference. You cant just short or float pin 3 from a Spdif. It will probably work but not correctly and is worse than just using the spdif in. Those with AES/EBU sources are fine but there's no advantage over spdif and actually a theoretical disadvantage unless both devices are fully balance in to out. At that point it becomes execution and preference. There are also VG passive matching adapters to go from AES/EBU to Spdif so anyone could use the DAC.quote:Originally posted by goldfinch:
IMO if Naim addresses this DAC to computer audio enthusiasts it should have AES/EBU input in addition to USB, optical or SPDIF. This would boost performance potential through the use of high end sound devices for streaming...
If there is nothing better about AES/EBU why for instance Lynx or RME sound cards use them?, I read somewhere the protocol for transmitting the audio signal is far superior in AES/EBU, isn't this an advantage?, I upgraded from a M-audio (SPDIF) to a Lynx AES16 (AES/EBU) for the Lavry and to my ears it was a significant upgrade, I always thought the AES/EBU connection has something to do with it.
Anyway, if Naim is aiming its DAC to computer audio (and this was exactly said by someone from Naim) they should make it very versatile, so not providing this connection would be a mistake, I know there are a adaptors, but it is not the same...
Posted on: 23 February 2009 by sector51
quote:I really like the HDX and it was/is on my shopping list this year, but the more I ponder over everything, the HDX looks increasingly awkward in the range to me....Surely, with hindsight and in light of these separate DAC developments, the HDX as a 'source' should be a player/ripper/streamer, as is (keeping all the qualities it has and the rip quality 'in-house approved'), but without the internal DAC and perhaps without the HD's (content is going to end up on external HD or NAS anyway)...If the internal DAC CAN be improved, as has been shown, then it shouldn't be in there - a bit like a PSU. A range of 3 external DAC's, as different tier points, would seem a better approach to me, personally....?
Steve,
Agreed but I would keep the HDX in the line as is for those who want the all in one convenience. Naim should release an HDX Lite - no DAC and replace the twin regular hard drives with Intel X25-M SSD drives (less noise, less heat), up to 160gigs now and surely going up in capacity. Make the external storage be the real work horse. That would be VERY cool!
Nick
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:Is this speculation, rumour or fact..?
Pure, unadulterated, speculation on my part.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:hence my confusion about 6 pages back why the HDX came into the conversation at this point
The HDX was used by Doug in the dems - hence its inclusion in my report.
Why was the HDX used in the dems? I guess it was to show just how good the prototype DAC is by comparison. I can't think of any other reason.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:A range of 3 external DAC's, as different tier points, would seem a better approach to me, personally....?
..........Great minds etc etc..... that was my prognosis in my first post on this subject.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by Paul Stephenson
quote:I am wondering what current HDX owners are thinking right now.
Steve as I thought wonderful now I can mke my hdx sound even better, no brainer!
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by SC
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:quote:hence my confusion about 6 pages back why the HDX came into the conversation at this point
The HDX was used by Doug in the dems - hence its inclusion in my report.
Don, I wasn't aiming this at you, more the fact that the HDX came into discussion through the thread, in relation to the DAC, and also once the news broke from Bristol of what was being shown...
Steve.
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by SC
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Pure, unadulterated, speculation on my part.
Excellent. The stuff that makes the world, and forums, go round...!
Posted on: 24 February 2009 by SC
quote:Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:quote:I am wondering what current HDX owners are thinking right now.
Steve as I thought wonderful now I can mke my hdx sound even better, no brainer!
That's brilliant Paul. And I'm not knocking it. And I see your point. I just need a money tree it seems....
I still maintain, IMHO, a HDX sans DAC would make more sense, overall....
Best, Steve.