The new Naim DAC

Jitter

As Frank stated above, Doug did respond to Frank's question about jitter. AFAIR he made it clear it was dealt with internally to the DAC but didn't give any detailed explanation - simply accepting virtual zero jitter was imporatnt and is a high priority aspect of the design - as it had been with CD/dvd/hdx kit to date.

The pre-prototype DAC sounded better than the HDX DAC so I guess that they must have had "some" success with jitter reduction, or else jitter isn't as critical as we have previously been led to believe. I'm inclined towards the former explanation.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
A DAC project was not of particular interest when it was just (as requested) "stick the DAC from a CDS3 in a Stageline box".

I think that's a bit patronising and not reflecting the requests at the time (around the introduction of the Supernait).

1. Some forum members - including myself - asked for the DAC boards from the n-Vi and/or Supernait in a Stageline box, at the PRICEPOINT of the Stageline, also using the Stageline's PSU options.
These people have now bought a Beresford or Moonlab DAC, just to be able to add some digitality to their Olive, CB or 5i gear, but would have spent a bit more for that NAIM option.

2. The second request at the time was for a DAC in a 5-series case that would provide CD5i - CD5x performance (depending on the PSU used) at the PRICEPOINT of the CD5i.
These people have now bought a Lavry or Benchmark DAC and some argue they got even more than they bargained for.

3. Around the introduction of the Superline the request came for a reference DAC in a HiCap case at the PRICEPOINT of the Superline.
These people will not be / are not happy now either because they do not want a 5-series case or because the pricepoint with a 555PSU is beyond a Superline/PSU combination.

What we did get after the n-Vi & Supernait were analogue front mini-jack inputs on several pieces of kit to hook up iPods, NaimNet home installation, Bentley sound processing, the recent HDX and the upcoming Uniti & NAIM DAC.

Don't get me wrong, I respect NAIM very much for the independent course they sail, they continue to release very interesting products and concepts. But the account of the discussions in the past years was not presented correctly and I wanted to balance that.

All in all I think it's fair to say NAIM lost a lot of DAC sales in the above options. Whether that matters to Salisbury is a whole different matter, it might or probably will be part of a different strategy where that will be recouped along other lines and that's fine. Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:

It won't stream from a NAS or anything.

8 inputs was mentioned, but no suggestion as to their configuration - i.e. whether they'd be AES/EBU, coax (RCA or BNC?), optical.

No mention of digital outputs that I heard.

I think it is logical it won't stream from a NAS or anything, Naim may launch in the future some kind of "squeezebox" or transport without hard disk for streaming directly to their DAC...

8 inputs make me feel confident about a possible AES/EBU, SN has two optical and two coax, new dac could have three coax (one bnc), two digital, one AES/EBU and two usb? That would be nice for me,

Reg digital out, what is this for? I guess for recording...

quote:

Originally posted by js:
No idea what they're doing but look at white papers about Dice used in the TC or JET in the Lynx.

js thx for the pointer - I have found a paper called "Clean Clocks, Once and for All". Would this be one of the papers you refer to?

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
All in all I think it's fair to say NAIM lost a lot of DAC sales in the above options. Whether that matters to Salisbury is a whole different matter, it might or probably will be part of a different strategy where that will be recouped along other lines and that's fine. Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

It probably didn't matter to them until they saw more than a few people selling off their Naim (and other) CDP's

Great post daddycool.

That's my impression too Allen, strong bet was put on HDX while DAC market may have been increasing rapidly (and CDP's not), they arrive a bit late but if it is worth they always count with their lovely loyalty customers...

quote:

they arrive a bit late

Absolutely brilliant pun.............

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
All in all I think it's fair to say NAIM lost a lot of DAC sales in the above options. Whether that matters to Salisbury is a whole different matter, it might or probably will be part of a different strategy where that will be recouped along other lines and that's fine. Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

It probably didn't matter to them until they saw more than a few people selling off their Naim (and other) CDP's

Great post daddycool.

Really? I beg to differ. What makes you think Naim were interested in DAC sales, or worried about losing any? That they are not rushing their new DAC on to the market until they think it's ready suggests quite the opposite to me.

Allen, how many is "more than a few people"?

Three? Four, maybe..?

You seem to have had an awful lot to say about something you haven't yet heard btw...

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
What makes you (AllenB, ed.) think Naim were interested in DAC sales, or worried about losing any? That they are not rushing their new DAC on to the market until they think it's ready suggests quite the opposite to me.

That was indeed my point in the second half of my post - as to the possible reason the DAC requests were not honoured and various other features, concepts and products were introduced instead.

(The point in the first half being a more representative account of DAC requests from forum members around and after the introduction of the Supernait)

NAIM sails its own course and merits credit for being independent and original. What we forum members think about that either positively or negatively is actually irrelevant - yet it's nice to analyse and discuss it anyway on this forum and of course we always hope someone in Salisbury does read it.

We know a business is not a democracy yet we also like to think we provide valuable free market research input. We'll never know how NAIM actually sees that and to what extent it will influence their decisions (from the DAC case we could distill that it doesn't, but that probably also depends on how you look at it).

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
NAIM sails its own course and merits credit for being independent and original. What we forum members think about that either positively or negatively is actually irrelevant - yet it's nice to analyse and discuss it anyway on this forum and of course we always hope someone in Salisbury does read it.

We know a business is not a democracy yet we also like to think we provide valuable free market research input. We'll never know how NAIM actually sees that and to what extent it will influence their decisions (from the DAC case we could distill that it doesn't, but that probably also depends on how you look at it).

A welcome dose of realism, dc - thanks.

Well given the fact that Naim's DAC will be priced at $3K according to reports they have actually lost no sales if you look honestly at the equation.

Why?

Most people who bought DACs, at least forum members who post, purchased inexpensively priced options ranging from $200-1000 on the average. I hope we agree.

Anyone who purchased one of these DACs would be glad to upgrade if the performance of the Naim DAC meets/exceeds their expectations if they can afford the expense (PSU or not).

Those who feel that their current DAC is better or equal to the Naim offering won't switch anyway--no lost sales.

Those who can't afford the Naim DAC because of pricing wouldn't buy it anyway-- no lost sales.

So I don't see where Naim has lost any sales at this point by waiting until they felt it was time to produce the DAC.

The only potential sales lost are those people who would only spend $1K or less who would have bought a Naim DAC if it was available.

So other than the fact that people wanted the DAC when they wanted it, I don't see the discussion anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
...Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

Yet. And when they do, they will arrive with all the fanfare and grand 'competitor beating' statements somewhat typical of them. A bit like the iPhone - after years of showing no interest and actively denying any worth or desire of being in that product sector - Dah Dah, an about turn....A bit like Leica going digital with the M - years and years late, but suddenly, it's announced as the bees knees, even though it's woefully under-spec and over-priced (oh, and handles like crap too).....and now, Naim - after years of refuting the need and indeed the practice of 'external' DACs...here we are.............

quote:

Originally posted by SC:

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
...Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

Yet. And when they do, they will arrive with all the fanfare and grand 'competitor beating' statements somewhat typical of them. A bit like the iPhone - after years of showing no interest and actively denying any worth or desire of being in that product sector - Dah Dah, an about turn....A bit like Leica going digital with the M - years and years late, but suddenly, it's announced as the bees knees, even though it's woefully under-spec and over-priced (oh, and handles like crap too).....and now, Naim - after years of refuting the need and indeed the practice of 'external' DACs...here we are.............

WOW. We want a DAC but you've sold out?
There's currently a market and a need. There wouldn't be if CDs were still the primary market source. Hopefully they've found a solution with some innovative jitter control to allow stored files to sound as good as CDs when the stream is reasonably well sorted. I guess they should have stopped at phono stages. CDPs certainly weren't better than vinyl when they started making them. By keeping the dac in the player they didn't need to come up with Dice, JET or their own circuit to help things. It was the correct way for the format and we found seperates manufacturers going one box over time as they realized as much. Can't do that with stored files. Different format, different solution.

I'm really happy Naim is making a Dac and Im sure they put everything into it and would not release one unless they felt it was better than the competition, and it had perfect synergy with other Naim stuff. I am going to have to work harder to try to be more successful in order to have an extra three grand to spend on a DAC but oh well .... incentive. Music from a computer is very important in my life so thanx for addressing this area Naim ( just please put a decent optical input on it for my Macs )

I just had an mega-geek fantasy that Naim teamed up with Apple kinda like they did with Bentley. Imagine, in addition to the regular MacBook Pro line-up, there would be a special MacBook Pro aimed at Musicians and Audiophiles called something like " MacBook Music Pro ". Naim would take care of the DA bits and another company from the pro/studio world like Metric Halo or RME or Apogee would take care of the AD input parts(for intruments, mics etc ). Of course it would not be as good as the pricier outboard gear but it would be a giant improvement over the average Burr-Brown-whatever that comes inside the laptop normally. Musicians and budding audiophiles and those who are both like me would love it. I would buy one and so would thousands and thousands of others. As a bonus, it would introduce so many young musicians who would not have heard of Naim to the brand, and just like my lowly Nait 3 has got me hooked on the Naim sound, the MacBook Music Pro would act as a sonic gateway drug for thousands of others.

Ahh ... sleep, perchance to dream

( has anyone ever tried snorting ground coffee beans ? )

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
The only potential sales lost are those people who would only spend $1K or less who would have bought a Naim DAC if it was available.

I find that a 1k-1500$ sector is pretty crowded to compete in a DAC market, but there might be a wider non Naim audience just itching to try a *Naim* sound. ( sort of like testing the water with an i-series stuff )

For myself, nicities starts happening at around 3k mark and really good one could compete with a CDS3/555PS arena was much more. ( no free lunch )

quote:

A bit like the iPhone - after years of showing no interest and actively denying any worth or desire of being in that product sector - Dah Dah, an about turn....A bit like Leica going digital with the M - years and years late, but suddenly, it's announced as the bees knees, even though it's woefully under-spec and over-priced (oh, and handles like crap too).....and now, Naim - after years of refuting the need and indeed the practice of 'external' DACs...here we are.............

Interesting comment, here is my take on it

iPhone, arrived to the market late, took learnings from existing products in the marketplace and came out with a killer product, which swept the opposition away and is now copied by them all- whether you like Apple or not

Leica, great history, severe fiancial problems ( technically bankrupt as late as 2005), have to move into digital to survive, but have no money to invest, therefore work with partnership with Panasonic and try and add a Leica touch - this creates product performance comprimises and shortfalls hence your comments

Naim - have looked at the market, listened, learned and will hopefully produce something that out-performs it's peers at the same price point which should make existing owners happy and maybe introduce some new customers. I assume it will be produced with the same forethought, quality and sound as we have grown to expect from Naim

I suspect any business that does not take advantage of emerging opportunities will not be in existence long.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by Harry H. Wombat:

Is there anyone who can talk a little about this? I would guess no: but one can but ask politely

I asked politely at the show - or at least I stated the obvious to them - that it breaks with received Naim wisdom etc, but this point was deftly deflected. No doubt we will get all the answers we need in a few months.

Meantime, did I say that it sounded very good? And I do like the 5-series case. And Don - I didn't get the impression this would be a lower-than-reference unit: the impression was that this is THE DAC, they've just put it in a 5-series case.

quote:

Anyone who purchased one of these DACs would be glad to upgrade if the performance of the Naim DAC meets/exceeds their expectations if they can afford the expense (PSU or not).

and I'm sure they must keep their value as well as Naim product, from all the fantastic feedback they've had on here.

Barrie

quote:

1. Some forum members - including myself - asked for the DAC boards from the n-Vi and/or Supernait in a Stageline box, at the PRICEPOINT of the Stageline, also using the Stageline's PSU options.
These people have now bought a Beresford or Moonlab DAC, just to be able to add some digitality to their Olive, CB or 5i gear, but would have spent a bit more for that NAIM option.

It's always a difficult call when you really want something and have to have it "now", it can be one of the problems of being an early adopter, but it is a choice people make, nobody forces them. I reckoned it was an odds on cert that Naim would launch a DAC, and although I want to upgrade to an HDX I have set myself a time limit to make the final decision, this will allow any new products to flow through to the market. However, once I've made my decision I will buy the product and promise not to beat myself up if something better/cheaper comes along later. I think you invest in Audio equipment for the long term and because you love the sound it produces and not just because it is the flavour/technology of the month.

Lifes a b*gger sometimes but there you go

Barrie

quote:

requests were not honoured

sorry to point this out but you can expect promises or committments to be honoured, but not requests.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:

quote:

Originally posted by Harry H. Wombat:

Is there anyone who can talk a little about this? I would guess no: but one can but ask politely

I asked politely at the show - or at least I stated the obvious to them - that it breaks with received Naim wisdom etc, but this point was deftly deflected. No doubt we will get all the answers we need in a few months.

Meantime, did I say that it sounded very good? And I do like the 5-series case. And Don - I didn't get the impression this would be a lower-than-reference unit: the impression was that this is THE DAC, they've just put it in a 5-series case.

I don't care about case, if it is cheaper a 5 case just go ahead...
But from a marketing point of view, if the dac is positioned as reference level (lets say S performance grade) I think Naim should finish the case as the rest of reference level but regarding the height IMO even a extra slim case could contribute to differentiate the new product making it very attractive.

Just to clarify, my question to Doug was simply answered in a way that made sense given the pressures of time with the ticketed demo. I later met the development lead of the DAC at the show and that's where I found out that Naim think their way of dealing with jitter is novel at the least and very possibly unique. In fact, our discussion was such that possible patents were mentioned.

On the subject of Naim producing a DAC because of some notion that they perceived lost sales, i very much doubt this. Announcing a DAC now can only hurt their sales since there will be those holding off buying a CD player while waiting for the DAC to come out. Furthermore, DACs have been around a very long time so it's not a novel idea. It's just that Naim's original view on separating the DAC from the transport was formed way back in the late 80s. There's been a heck of a lot of development since then and the DSP work in the Bentley project meant that they could use this to address jitter issue in a separate DAC. The Bentley project was already mature over two years ago when I visited Naim so the DAC has been coming a long time. (Yes, I was told to keep my clam shut about Bentley back then, so I did.)

The fact is Naim have too much to lose by releasing product before it's ready. They take their time on everything, otherwise they really run into trouble. Just look at the reactions to the uniti and the DAC as an example!

quote:

The fact is Naim have too much to lose by releasing product before it's ready.

You are dead right Frank, many products have been "killed" by premature launches.

It seems it is often the same people screaming for early product releases, are also the first ones screaming about product quality if it doesn't perform up to snuff - so it's a lose-lose situation for manufacturers, therefore they should only launch when they feel the product is right.

It takes years to build a brand, and very little time to destroy it ( some-one mentioned leica earlier )

I really look forward to seeing and hearing what will come out from naim this year, it's really going to be exciting.

Barrie

quote:

But it could well have to do with the loss or drop in sales of CDP's (naim or other), because of many factors, not least of which people are beginning to seriously think in terms of distributed audio.

I could be wrong here, but I think the profit potential from a DAC may well be greater than from a CDP, due to less moving parts moving parts etc etc, so Naim might well be delighted to switch all their CDP owners to DACs - but the reality is not everyone is ready to take the step to distributed audio, if only because they are risk averse to being an early adopter of what can appear a "fairly" new and complex technology requiring computers, ripping software,dacs, servers/HD's etc. CDP's and CD's are a mature and simple technology and many people are happy to stick with that, at least until the price of distributed audio technology drops to a level where they feel is worth making the switch, and the level of complexity also drops.

Barrie

My concern is that you spend £2000 on a DAC (which is a lot to me) and then your Sony and Pioneer etc get together to develop a new HD Audio standard that the DAC doesn’t support. I think it could very well happen once download speeds get fast enough to conveniently download large HD audio files.

Then the DAC is worth peanuts. Naim AV1 anyone?

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

your post brings up one of the issues I was alluding to when I spoke about early adopters concerns.

Barrie