The new Naim DAC

quote:

Originally posted by js:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
Js,
No I haven't tried any adaptor, I just ordered a suitable cable (Belden AES/EBU) for connecting a Lynx AES16 to a Lavry. I think you know I was having sound dropouts with via Spdif caused by mains, but they disappeared since I changed to an AES/EBU interface. At least I thought the stronger signal of the AES/EBU interface was the solution to that problem.
On the other hand, I think some of the AES/EBU advantages you point out can be useful in domestic environments. For instance, long cable runs (you can keep the computer far from the system), it is more interference-proof, this was exactly my experience, and finally, user could choose among more audio devices for streaming (pro and not so pro, I think most new music servers-streamers have AES/EBU).
So, it would be a pity that Naim brand new DAC wouldn't have an AES/EBU digital input.

The longer cable runs still suffer from from the same bandwidth and cable character issues as any single ended cable. Common mode noise cancelation is the only advantage and you hear the same differences in cable type and length as you do with Spdif. The dig files are stored as single ended files. A second out of phase signal needs to generated somewhere in the chain which to me is just complication though not a problem if done well. Generally at the outs and ins. I could be wrong but I believe the Spdif that you were using was TOS and direct fron the computer. Though it wouldn't have mattered in your case if it were tos or coax for this discussion I'm only referreing to coax. The Lynx works because it's simply a better card with well sorted buffers that can also be increased if dropouts occur. It's the card and not the interface. You can run a coax 30' though I wouldn't do that with any dig format I was trying to get the best from. AES/EBU does have a significantly greater distance spec but that doesn't make it better for getting the ultimate performance from the format. Just more managable for pro use that sometimes requires AES/EBU to get a job done at all. Being able to do something and doing it well aren't the same. There's no advantage at normal lengths. If streamers have AES/EBU it will be at the analog out to cater to those with balanced preamps. Not the DIG out.

Hi Js, I did a little experiment in order to test whether an AES/EBU connection helps or not to avoid the sound dropouts I was experiencing.
I have tried with different coax. cables (cheap ones and chord signature) using different sources:
(A) standard spdif from cheap computer sound device integrated in the motherboard
(B) Spdif from an M-audio 192 audiophile sound card
(C) Spdif from a fine Denon DVD 3930, which is supposed to have a very good quality digital out.
(D) Spdif from a cheap pioneer DVD.

All were connected to the Lavry's Spdif input and in all cases sound dropout happens when I turn on/off some lights at home. Cheap or expensive digital cable didn't change anything.

With the AES/EBU connection between the Lynx sound card and the Lavry there isn't any sound dropout.

Couldn't be that the stronger voltage of the AES/EBU connection make the digital signal more insensitive to mains interferences?

I am sure Naim DAC will provide the most complet array of digital inputs, not only AES/EBU but even I2S if this is really a far superior connection...

Other good point with AES/EBU is the XLR connector, I think this is better than any other, you can hear a "click" and you know the connection is flawless...

What do you think guys about what appeared in WHF?:

It's very much work in progress, but is being developed as "an innovative way of turning digits into analogue", according to a Naim spokesman. "It's designed for people who use a laptop or PC to play their music."


What can mean "innovative"?

- A proprietary conversion mode: We just know only a litte about how the SN DAC works and deal with jitter, how different can be the new DAC design?

- Convenience features still to be implemented in the prototype suchs as wifi (like new Chord DAc) or built in sound device for attach a NAS.

The fact it's designed for "people who use a laptop or PC to play their music" sounds to me as a simple DAC to connect to the Mac and that's all, I mean no I2S or AES/EBU connection or other features more common in the pro audio DACs as polarity, volume, different filters or clock modes, external clock upgrade, headphones out).

I think a 2000 Naim DAC upgradeable with something like a 555PS should be "pro audio" friendly, at least my wishlist features would be:

- Complete array of digital inputs including AES/EBU
- A conversion mode sensitive to input signal quality. I mean that if the transport used is top the DAC conversion should take advantage of that and be able to give the best results but at the same time if the digital input is, for instance, full of jitter the DAC should be able to cope successfully with it and give a good result too.
- Full HD res. input compatible, I think USB is limited to 24/96 though,
- NAS or Wifi compatible (optional?).
- "S" grade performance potential with all the fun you can expect from Naim: rhythm, dynamics, lots or PRAT...

What do you think?

Personally I'll be happy if it has 4 coax inputs, since they are still the most reliable and widely-usable/compatible. It's bound to have others too but 4 coax should be the start.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:
Personally I'll be happy if it has 4 coax inputs, since they are still the most reliable and widely-usable/compatible. It's bound to have others too but 4 coax should be the start.

With a standard length box there is a lot of space...
Inputs
4 Spdif (maybe one of them with BNC connector)
1 optical
1 AES/EBU
USB
Ethernet

Burndy PSU socket
IEC mains

Outputs
Din
RCA

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

With the AES/EBU connection between the Lynx sound card and the Lavry there isn't any sound dropout.

As I know, but I could be wrong, there is a small transformer on the AES input of the Lavry and this can break some ground loop somehow. It can cause a behaviour like this.

Too bad no one took a higher resolution photo, or a photo from behind... Still, since they do say it's still "in development", I guess it doesn't matter.

Just in case anyone from the development team is reading:

- We do need a cheap (2K is an OK price) DAC. It doesn't have to beat a HDX, and even the option to upgrade is great. It should however, have a computer connection. USB is OK, but I do think that a network connection would work much better. Having digital inputs as well (S/PDIF) is great, and adds to functionality, but I would be much happier with a network port. Improving other devices is fine, but a proper source is essential. Since Naim already has the software developed, for HDX, it shouldn't be difficult, or very expensive.

- Another device, the often mentioned HD 555 would be nice as well. Even a better DAC then demoed, the works, and in an another price range... But that's out of my league, so I'll skip the comments.

Bottom line: DAC is nice, but do add a network port as well. Pretty please?

Can't wait for May, to see the final specs.

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

With the AES/EBU connection between the Lynx sound card and the Lavry there isn't any sound dropout.

As I know, but I could be wrong, there is a small transformer on the AES input of the Lavry and this can break some ground loop somehow. It can cause a behaviour like this.

Thanks, I didn't know which method they used but this is common. An extra bit in line to allow balanced. Can easily be done outboard. The xformer does not isolate the groung in this configuration and if your having a problem with Spdif, you need to look at the hardware, not the format. No advatage over Spdif in normal lehgths. If you like it better, it's because of your source card quality or you happen to prefer the 'character' of the input which is OK too. The voltage spec will have nothing to do with it under about 10M.

More than one optical in, pretty please

Not sure if these have been mentioned earlier:

The prototype shown was very much pre-production. Anything can change - case, inputs, outputs, electronics, PCB mounting, power supply options, internal configuration, filter settings. All still up for grabs.

The case was chosen for reasons of cost. A Reference case would raise the price significantly, whether Hicap or full size.

It won't stream from a NAS or anything.

8 inputs was mentioned, but no suggestion as to their configuration - i.e. whether they'd be AES/EBU, coax (RCA or BNC?), optical.

No mention of digital outputs that I heard.

I was concerned about jitter and asked about that. Apparently, Naim have devised a novel way of dealing with jitter and clocking generally. This work came from the DSP work that was done in the Bentley project. If it works half as well as we heard on Sunday, it's possible it'd make the Bentley project worthwhile on its own! I believe a white paper may come out in future discussing this approach to managing jitter.

My only wish would be ASIO capability for the USB. Would be good for both pro or advanced home use. I can get around that but it would simplify things.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Apparently, Naim have devised a novel way of dealing with jitter and clocking generally.

It would be very, very interesting to hear more about this. It is my understanding that NAIM have always tried to keep the DAC close to the source of the signal, presumably to reduce the effects of "jitter" in all of its forms. For the first time, apart from the DAC in the SuperNait, NAIM are releasing a DAC distant from the signal. Given the history of the company and, one would guess, the internal culture it is far from surprising that NAIM, from this statement, have put time into a novel way of either preserving the signal, recreating the "true" signal or some other electronic loveliness to present the truest signal possible to the actual DAC.

Is there anyone who can talk a little about this? I would guess no: but one can but ask politely

I'm also VERY interested in hearing about how jitter can be managed as it's my only concern when bolting on an external DAC. It's most commonly dealt with by buffering and reclocking within the DAC, but with DSP you can perform many complex tricks.

No idea what they're doing but look at white papers about Dice used in the TC or JET in the Lynx. Having a direct asynchronus usb computer connection with that sort of clock attachment inside a really good DAC would be monumental. Even when using those excellent devices DIG outs, you can still get small amounts of jitter on the cable, transmitter and receiver. Their PS's are also a source of jitter on the way out or even before and the clock needs syncing. Still better than the reclocking methods I've come across when the jitter is reasonable but who knows, maybe they've discovered a way to build a better mouse trap. Won't know until a listen.

Jitter

As Frank stated above, Doug did respond to Frank's question about jitter. AFAIR he made it clear it was dealt with internally to the DAC but didn't give any detailed explanation - simply accepting virtual zero jitter was imporatnt and is a high priority aspect of the design - as it had been with CD/dvd/hdx kit to date.

The pre-prototype DAC sounded better than the HDX DAC so I guess that they must have had "some" success with jitter reduction, or else jitter isn't as critical as we have previously been led to believe. I'm inclined towards the former explanation.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
A DAC project was not of particular interest when it was just (as requested) "stick the DAC from a CDS3 in a Stageline box".

I think that's a bit patronising and not reflecting the requests at the time (around the introduction of the Supernait).

1. Some forum members - including myself - asked for the DAC boards from the n-Vi and/or Supernait in a Stageline box, at the PRICEPOINT of the Stageline, also using the Stageline's PSU options.
These people have now bought a Beresford or Moonlab DAC, just to be able to add some digitality to their Olive, CB or 5i gear, but would have spent a bit more for that NAIM option.

2. The second request at the time was for a DAC in a 5-series case that would provide CD5i - CD5x performance (depending on the PSU used) at the PRICEPOINT of the CD5i.
These people have now bought a Lavry or Benchmark DAC and some argue they got even more than they bargained for.

3. Around the introduction of the Superline the request came for a reference DAC in a HiCap case at the PRICEPOINT of the Superline.
These people will not be / are not happy now either because they do not want a 5-series case or because the pricepoint with a 555PSU is beyond a Superline/PSU combination.

What we did get after the n-Vi & Supernait were analogue front mini-jack inputs on several pieces of kit to hook up iPods, NaimNet home installation, Bentley sound processing, the recent HDX and the upcoming Uniti & NAIM DAC.

Don't get me wrong, I respect NAIM very much for the independent course they sail, they continue to release very interesting products and concepts. But the account of the discussions in the past years was not presented correctly and I wanted to balance that.

All in all I think it's fair to say NAIM lost a lot of DAC sales in the above options. Whether that matters to Salisbury is a whole different matter, it might or probably will be part of a different strategy where that will be recouped along other lines and that's fine. Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:

It won't stream from a NAS or anything.

8 inputs was mentioned, but no suggestion as to their configuration - i.e. whether they'd be AES/EBU, coax (RCA or BNC?), optical.

No mention of digital outputs that I heard.

I think it is logical it won't stream from a NAS or anything, Naim may launch in the future some kind of "squeezebox" or transport without hard disk for streaming directly to their DAC...

8 inputs make me feel confident about a possible AES/EBU, SN has two optical and two coax, new dac could have three coax (one bnc), two digital, one AES/EBU and two usb? That would be nice for me,

Reg digital out, what is this for? I guess for recording...

quote:

Originally posted by js:
No idea what they're doing but look at white papers about Dice used in the TC or JET in the Lynx.

js thx for the pointer - I have found a paper called "Clean Clocks, Once and for All". Would this be one of the papers you refer to?

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
All in all I think it's fair to say NAIM lost a lot of DAC sales in the above options. Whether that matters to Salisbury is a whole different matter, it might or probably will be part of a different strategy where that will be recouped along other lines and that's fine. Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

It probably didn't matter to them until they saw more than a few people selling off their Naim (and other) CDP's

Great post daddycool.

That's my impression too Allen, strong bet was put on HDX while DAC market may have been increasing rapidly (and CDP's not), they arrive a bit late but if it is worth they always count with their lovely loyalty customers...

quote:

they arrive a bit late

Absolutely brilliant pun.............

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
All in all I think it's fair to say NAIM lost a lot of DAC sales in the above options. Whether that matters to Salisbury is a whole different matter, it might or probably will be part of a different strategy where that will be recouped along other lines and that's fine. Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

It probably didn't matter to them until they saw more than a few people selling off their Naim (and other) CDP's

Great post daddycool.

Really? I beg to differ. What makes you think Naim were interested in DAC sales, or worried about losing any? That they are not rushing their new DAC on to the market until they think it's ready suggests quite the opposite to me.

Allen, how many is "more than a few people"?

Three? Four, maybe..?

You seem to have had an awful lot to say about something you haven't yet heard btw...

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
What makes you (AllenB, ed.) think Naim were interested in DAC sales, or worried about losing any? That they are not rushing their new DAC on to the market until they think it's ready suggests quite the opposite to me.

That was indeed my point in the second half of my post - as to the possible reason the DAC requests were not honoured and various other features, concepts and products were introduced instead.

(The point in the first half being a more representative account of DAC requests from forum members around and after the introduction of the Supernait)

NAIM sails its own course and merits credit for being independent and original. What we forum members think about that either positively or negatively is actually irrelevant - yet it's nice to analyse and discuss it anyway on this forum and of course we always hope someone in Salisbury does read it.

We know a business is not a democracy yet we also like to think we provide valuable free market research input. We'll never know how NAIM actually sees that and to what extent it will influence their decisions (from the DAC case we could distill that it doesn't, but that probably also depends on how you look at it).

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
NAIM sails its own course and merits credit for being independent and original. What we forum members think about that either positively or negatively is actually irrelevant - yet it's nice to analyse and discuss it anyway on this forum and of course we always hope someone in Salisbury does read it.

We know a business is not a democracy yet we also like to think we provide valuable free market research input. We'll never know how NAIM actually sees that and to what extent it will influence their decisions (from the DAC case we could distill that it doesn't, but that probably also depends on how you look at it).

A welcome dose of realism, dc - thanks.

Well given the fact that Naim's DAC will be priced at $3K according to reports they have actually lost no sales if you look honestly at the equation.

Why?

Most people who bought DACs, at least forum members who post, purchased inexpensively priced options ranging from $200-1000 on the average. I hope we agree.

Anyone who purchased one of these DACs would be glad to upgrade if the performance of the Naim DAC meets/exceeds their expectations if they can afford the expense (PSU or not).

Those who feel that their current DAC is better or equal to the Naim offering won't switch anyway--no lost sales.

Those who can't afford the Naim DAC because of pricing wouldn't buy it anyway-- no lost sales.

So I don't see where Naim has lost any sales at this point by waiting until they felt it was time to produce the DAC.

The only potential sales lost are those people who would only spend $1K or less who would have bought a Naim DAC if it was available.

So other than the fact that people wanted the DAC when they wanted it, I don't see the discussion anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
...Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

Yet. And when they do, they will arrive with all the fanfare and grand 'competitor beating' statements somewhat typical of them. A bit like the iPhone - after years of showing no interest and actively denying any worth or desire of being in that product sector - Dah Dah, an about turn....A bit like Leica going digital with the M - years and years late, but suddenly, it's announced as the bees knees, even though it's woefully under-spec and over-priced (oh, and handles like crap too).....and now, Naim - after years of refuting the need and indeed the practice of 'external' DACs...here we are.............

quote:

Originally posted by SC:

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
...Apple doesn't make netbooks either.

Yet. And when they do, they will arrive with all the fanfare and grand 'competitor beating' statements somewhat typical of them. A bit like the iPhone - after years of showing no interest and actively denying any worth or desire of being in that product sector - Dah Dah, an about turn....A bit like Leica going digital with the M - years and years late, but suddenly, it's announced as the bees knees, even though it's woefully under-spec and over-priced (oh, and handles like crap too).....and now, Naim - after years of refuting the need and indeed the practice of 'external' DACs...here we are.............

WOW. We want a DAC but you've sold out?
There's currently a market and a need. There wouldn't be if CDs were still the primary market source. Hopefully they've found a solution with some innovative jitter control to allow stored files to sound as good as CDs when the stream is reasonably well sorted. I guess they should have stopped at phono stages. CDPs certainly weren't better than vinyl when they started making them. By keeping the dac in the player they didn't need to come up with Dice, JET or their own circuit to help things. It was the correct way for the format and we found seperates manufacturers going one box over time as they realized as much. Can't do that with stored files. Different format, different solution.