The new Naim DAC

I'm really happy Naim is making a Dac and Im sure they put everything into it and would not release one unless they felt it was better than the competition, and it had perfect synergy with other Naim stuff. I am going to have to work harder to try to be more successful in order to have an extra three grand to spend on a DAC but oh well .... incentive. Music from a computer is very important in my life so thanx for addressing this area Naim ( just please put a decent optical input on it for my Macs )

I just had an mega-geek fantasy that Naim teamed up with Apple kinda like they did with Bentley. Imagine, in addition to the regular MacBook Pro line-up, there would be a special MacBook Pro aimed at Musicians and Audiophiles called something like " MacBook Music Pro ". Naim would take care of the DA bits and another company from the pro/studio world like Metric Halo or RME or Apogee would take care of the AD input parts(for intruments, mics etc ). Of course it would not be as good as the pricier outboard gear but it would be a giant improvement over the average Burr-Brown-whatever that comes inside the laptop normally. Musicians and budding audiophiles and those who are both like me would love it. I would buy one and so would thousands and thousands of others. As a bonus, it would introduce so many young musicians who would not have heard of Naim to the brand, and just like my lowly Nait 3 has got me hooked on the Naim sound, the MacBook Music Pro would act as a sonic gateway drug for thousands of others.

Ahh ... sleep, perchance to dream

( has anyone ever tried snorting ground coffee beans ? )

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
The only potential sales lost are those people who would only spend $1K or less who would have bought a Naim DAC if it was available.

I find that a 1k-1500$ sector is pretty crowded to compete in a DAC market, but there might be a wider non Naim audience just itching to try a *Naim* sound. ( sort of like testing the water with an i-series stuff )

For myself, nicities starts happening at around 3k mark and really good one could compete with a CDS3/555PS arena was much more. ( no free lunch )

quote:

A bit like the iPhone - after years of showing no interest and actively denying any worth or desire of being in that product sector - Dah Dah, an about turn....A bit like Leica going digital with the M - years and years late, but suddenly, it's announced as the bees knees, even though it's woefully under-spec and over-priced (oh, and handles like crap too).....and now, Naim - after years of refuting the need and indeed the practice of 'external' DACs...here we are.............

Interesting comment, here is my take on it

iPhone, arrived to the market late, took learnings from existing products in the marketplace and came out with a killer product, which swept the opposition away and is now copied by them all- whether you like Apple or not

Leica, great history, severe fiancial problems ( technically bankrupt as late as 2005), have to move into digital to survive, but have no money to invest, therefore work with partnership with Panasonic and try and add a Leica touch - this creates product performance comprimises and shortfalls hence your comments

Naim - have looked at the market, listened, learned and will hopefully produce something that out-performs it's peers at the same price point which should make existing owners happy and maybe introduce some new customers. I assume it will be produced with the same forethought, quality and sound as we have grown to expect from Naim

I suspect any business that does not take advantage of emerging opportunities will not be in existence long.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by Harry H. Wombat:

Is there anyone who can talk a little about this? I would guess no: but one can but ask politely

I asked politely at the show - or at least I stated the obvious to them - that it breaks with received Naim wisdom etc, but this point was deftly deflected. No doubt we will get all the answers we need in a few months.

Meantime, did I say that it sounded very good? And I do like the 5-series case. And Don - I didn't get the impression this would be a lower-than-reference unit: the impression was that this is THE DAC, they've just put it in a 5-series case.

quote:

Anyone who purchased one of these DACs would be glad to upgrade if the performance of the Naim DAC meets/exceeds their expectations if they can afford the expense (PSU or not).

and I'm sure they must keep their value as well as Naim product, from all the fantastic feedback they've had on here.

Barrie

quote:

1. Some forum members - including myself - asked for the DAC boards from the n-Vi and/or Supernait in a Stageline box, at the PRICEPOINT of the Stageline, also using the Stageline's PSU options.
These people have now bought a Beresford or Moonlab DAC, just to be able to add some digitality to their Olive, CB or 5i gear, but would have spent a bit more for that NAIM option.

It's always a difficult call when you really want something and have to have it "now", it can be one of the problems of being an early adopter, but it is a choice people make, nobody forces them. I reckoned it was an odds on cert that Naim would launch a DAC, and although I want to upgrade to an HDX I have set myself a time limit to make the final decision, this will allow any new products to flow through to the market. However, once I've made my decision I will buy the product and promise not to beat myself up if something better/cheaper comes along later. I think you invest in Audio equipment for the long term and because you love the sound it produces and not just because it is the flavour/technology of the month.

Lifes a b*gger sometimes but there you go

Barrie

quote:

requests were not honoured

sorry to point this out but you can expect promises or committments to be honoured, but not requests.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:

quote:

Originally posted by Harry H. Wombat:

Is there anyone who can talk a little about this? I would guess no: but one can but ask politely

I asked politely at the show - or at least I stated the obvious to them - that it breaks with received Naim wisdom etc, but this point was deftly deflected. No doubt we will get all the answers we need in a few months.

Meantime, did I say that it sounded very good? And I do like the 5-series case. And Don - I didn't get the impression this would be a lower-than-reference unit: the impression was that this is THE DAC, they've just put it in a 5-series case.

I don't care about case, if it is cheaper a 5 case just go ahead...
But from a marketing point of view, if the dac is positioned as reference level (lets say S performance grade) I think Naim should finish the case as the rest of reference level but regarding the height IMO even a extra slim case could contribute to differentiate the new product making it very attractive.

Just to clarify, my question to Doug was simply answered in a way that made sense given the pressures of time with the ticketed demo. I later met the development lead of the DAC at the show and that's where I found out that Naim think their way of dealing with jitter is novel at the least and very possibly unique. In fact, our discussion was such that possible patents were mentioned.

On the subject of Naim producing a DAC because of some notion that they perceived lost sales, i very much doubt this. Announcing a DAC now can only hurt their sales since there will be those holding off buying a CD player while waiting for the DAC to come out. Furthermore, DACs have been around a very long time so it's not a novel idea. It's just that Naim's original view on separating the DAC from the transport was formed way back in the late 80s. There's been a heck of a lot of development since then and the DSP work in the Bentley project meant that they could use this to address jitter issue in a separate DAC. The Bentley project was already mature over two years ago when I visited Naim so the DAC has been coming a long time. (Yes, I was told to keep my clam shut about Bentley back then, so I did.)

The fact is Naim have too much to lose by releasing product before it's ready. They take their time on everything, otherwise they really run into trouble. Just look at the reactions to the uniti and the DAC as an example!

quote:

The fact is Naim have too much to lose by releasing product before it's ready.

You are dead right Frank, many products have been "killed" by premature launches.

It seems it is often the same people screaming for early product releases, are also the first ones screaming about product quality if it doesn't perform up to snuff - so it's a lose-lose situation for manufacturers, therefore they should only launch when they feel the product is right.

It takes years to build a brand, and very little time to destroy it ( some-one mentioned leica earlier )

I really look forward to seeing and hearing what will come out from naim this year, it's really going to be exciting.

Barrie

quote:

But it could well have to do with the loss or drop in sales of CDP's (naim or other), because of many factors, not least of which people are beginning to seriously think in terms of distributed audio.

I could be wrong here, but I think the profit potential from a DAC may well be greater than from a CDP, due to less moving parts moving parts etc etc, so Naim might well be delighted to switch all their CDP owners to DACs - but the reality is not everyone is ready to take the step to distributed audio, if only because they are risk averse to being an early adopter of what can appear a "fairly" new and complex technology requiring computers, ripping software,dacs, servers/HD's etc. CDP's and CD's are a mature and simple technology and many people are happy to stick with that, at least until the price of distributed audio technology drops to a level where they feel is worth making the switch, and the level of complexity also drops.

Barrie

My concern is that you spend £2000 on a DAC (which is a lot to me) and then your Sony and Pioneer etc get together to develop a new HD Audio standard that the DAC doesn’t support. I think it could very well happen once download speeds get fast enough to conveniently download large HD audio files.

Then the DAC is worth peanuts. Naim AV1 anyone?

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

your post brings up one of the issues I was alluding to when I spoke about early adopters concerns.

Barrie

A reference Dac may be marketed to a reduced segment (not entry level and distributed audio enthusiasts). Thus the potential loss sales for not marketing until now such a product might not be very high. Besides, it is still the negative effect on CDP sales.
On the other hand, competitors have been launching dacs during the last two years and that's why I said previously they were arriving a bit late.
Nonetheless, I think this is not a problem at all for Naim. Not as far as presumibly most Naimees using other manufacturers dacs are looking forward to hearing the new baby, and, eventually buy one. I think Naim didn't need to be in a hurry launching such a DAC and at the same time, they couldn't be in a hurry because they have to launch such an excellent product as they usually do.

IMO Naim's reputation as a manufacturer of some of the finest digital sources (CDP) makes totally credible they are able to do the same with a standalone dac but they really have to be sure before any launching. A new product for the company, high development costs, reduced market, hard competition, potential CDP sales damage, and the necessity to match users' high expectations are all factors pointing out this is a risky new product decision...

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:
Naim AV1 anyone?

Not a great example - it still works as it always did. And I WOULD quite like one - very retro.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:
Naim AV1 anyone?

Not a great example - it still works as it always did. And I WOULD quite like one - very retro.

Yes, I agree as would a DAC if a higher res digital standard was agreed. However, the relative value would be much lower since it didnt support the prevailing standard. Then again, even if the AV1 did support Pro-logic then it still wouldnt be worth much I guess....

I would be interested to hear one actually....

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:
Naim AV1 anyone?

Not a great example - it still works as it always did. And I WOULD quite like one - very retro.

Yes, I agree as would a DAC if a higher res digital standard was agreed. However, the relative value would be much lower since it didnt support the prevailing standard. Then again, even if the AV1 did support Pro-logic then it still wouldnt be worth much I guess....

I would be interested to hear one actually....

The AV1 was about as popular when new as it would be now. Nobody's perfect.

quote:

are all factors pointing out this is a risky new product decision...

Goldfinch, I dont think there will be a perfect time over the next couple of years,we plan to support our cd business for many years, its important to us, we make great music with them but we must be flexible with our product offering to reflect different customer needs for playing high quality music. Our engineering effort is totally focused to get the best results in the market place, best results to naim means best sound.
It a very exciting time,we love the challenge we have plans which we believe will stand up as we go forward.

[/QUOTE]



It takes years to build a brand, and very little time to destroy it ( some-one mentioned leica earlier )

[/QUOTE]

yes so true...we really living in quite agresive time...

by the way... leica is not dead at all...at least all my laicas function flowerless.. while my digital hasselblad was the most expensive and the worst equipment, i have ever had...and unfortunatelly still have

quote:

by the way... leica is not dead at all...at least all my laicas function flowerless.. while my digital hasselblad was the most expensive and the worst equipment, i have ever had...and unfortunatelly still have

No Leica, aren't dead, but they took a hell of a hammering over the M8, with it's colour cast need for UV/IR filters to be fitted and the rest of the range becoming Panasonics with better glass and software - but I'm with you, I love them

Hasselblad - same as Leica - "Joint Venture " with Fuji, loss of direction etc, etc

damned sad really

Happy clicking with your Leica

Barrie

quote:

iPhone, arrived to the market late, took learnings from existing products in the marketplace and came out with a killer product, which swept the opposition away and is now copied by them all- whether you like Apple or not

Good point Barrie. Also I remember that there was a hard disk based portable music player called, as I recall, the Creative Zen Jukebox or something. I owned one. It was rubbish. Not one single thing about it was right. It was large, unwieldy, low volume, tiny buttons and a screen you couldn't read. Wonder whatever happened to that

Difference now, of course, is that there are a number of DACs on the market the majority of which are at least good enough to use and in many cases excellent. I will, though, be auditioning the NAIM DAC as soon as it is available as, I suspect, will many others.

Now, if NAIM could just give us a teeny,tiny, teeny-weeny bit more information about say, the connectivity or jitter-reduction ..

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:

quote:

by the way... leica is not dead at all...at least all my laicas function flowerless.. while my digital hasselblad was the most expensive and the worst equipment, i have ever had...and unfortunatelly still have

No Leica, aren't dead, but they took a hell of a hammering over the M8, with it's colour cast need for UV/IR filters to be fitted and the rest of the range becoming Panasonics with better glass and software - but I'm with you, I love them

Hasselblad - same as Leica - "Joint Venture " with Fuji, loss of direction etc, etc

damned sad really

Happy clicking with your Leica

Barrie

i know this maybe doesn´t belong here but :

i agree, that leica is late. they had a bad ceo over the last years. that´s past now. i think we can expect much more to come...

well actually the best with the hasselblad camera are the fuji lenses... ironically

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:
It a very exciting time,we love the challenge we have plans which we believe will stand up as we go forward.

I wish master audio quality downloads became popular soon among audio enthusiasts, it is indeed a very exciting time, and DACs are needed to enjoy all these new digital ways to enjoy music!

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

I wish master audio quality downloads became popular soon among audio enthusiasts, it is indeed a very exciting time, and DACs are needed to enjoy all these new digital ways to enjoy music!

Just out of interest, what are the specs of studio masters?

quote:

Originally posted by Wazza69:

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:

I wish master audio quality downloads became popular soon among audio enthusiasts, it is indeed a very exciting time, and DACs are needed to enjoy all these new digital ways to enjoy music!

Just out of interest, what are the specs of studio masters?

I think the standard HD res for downloading from a consumer point of view is 24/96, no idea of which percentage of the industry is recording at this resolution in studios though.