The new Naim DAC

Hey Adam, throw us a frickin' bone here.... you know....

"So insightful has been the collective wisdom of forum readers with respect to the commercial viability of a stand-alone DAC that Naim is planning to disband its entire market research division and replacing it with a word-search program/bot that will simply trawl the Naim users' forum for key words and make automatic recommendations to the company's product development division."

Glad it finally showed up. If this was in reponse to a particular DAC, it would have been here a long time ago with less PS versatility. They could have slapped out a competent self contained or flatcap upgrade version in no time but went with a more comprehensive approach. My opinion and lets not apply motive and just judge it when get to hear one. Naim's a manufacturer with a piece of almost every audio genre. Of course you'd expect this when the market became viable for one in sufficient quantity for the amount of R&D they wanted to put into it which appears to be significant.

It doesn't surprise me that The HDX better source as was demonstrated due to it's player and interface though a computer with significant improvements in interface, player program and setup can be close. Naim have always contended that a computer could do a reasonable job but that it was very difficult to pull off. Julian etc. were playing with a software based PC as CDP in the days of the CDS1. No one is reinventing the wheel here. These are not revelations. Just good engineering, hopefully and we'll know when we hear it but if it's actually significantly better than the HDX as demoed, I think they have a winner on their hands.

I think it's a shame that the only info we have so far is secondhand from a show visitor (good as that is) and a small picture from What Hi-Fi !

Come on Naim - you know this is something a lot of us have been waiting for. Let's have some info straight from the horses mouth (and some nice pics - internal would be good too )

James

quote:

Originally posted by js:
It doesn't surprise me that The HDX better source as was demonstrated due to it's player and interface though a computer with significant improvements in interface, player program and setup can be close.

Interestingly, the OP has also stated on another forum that he couldn't hear much difference between the HDX and the MacBook during the demo.

And of course we don't know how the Macbook was set up for the demo - i.e. was iTunes used and if so, what ripping and playback options were used?

I think they're taking the Preamp route here and would like to keep the ps vibration and magnetic field away from sensitive ICs etc. It does make a diff. and may even more so in a DAC. The case and inboard supply may be a way to keep price in line for all or the lighter case may just sound better for the way it's made. At this price there can't be a fully sprung PC board and there's probably board mounted connectors. Probably no word on DAC used, if it upsamples or filters at this point but I wouldn't be surprised if they put a great deal of work into the filter and may have done quite a bit of research on upsampling but really, I have no insight on this. I've always said upsampling should be able to have advantages due to filtering but I just haven't found it to be the case so far compared to others that I personally like and I'n not throwing stones here. Personal preference and this includes things like DCS DACs.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
It doesn't surprise me that The HDX better source as was demonstrated due to it's player and interface though a computer with significant improvements in interface, player program and setup can be close.

Interestingly, the OP has also stated on another forum that he couldn't hear much difference between the HDX and the MacBook during the demo.

And of course we don't know how the Macbook was set up for the demo - i.e. was iTunes used and if so, what ripping and playback options were used?

My thoughts on this are known so I wont get into it. We'll just wait and see if it's a good option for MACs when available.

Another vote/plea here to put the DAC please in a full size reference case. (A reference case looks better if the rest of the equipement is in one and the half size ones are a pain if you want it to sit in the middle of a fraim shelf.)

Impressive sound and to these ears HDX/DAC/555ps was a long way better than the mac/DAC/555ps (with optical cable and using itunes)- DG was at pains to point out that the same file type was used on both for the particular track used for the comparison.

Looking forward to developments on the HDX without onboard DAC.

On the subject purely of looks ,though, I note previous requests for Fraim filler (a full size case with nothing in it but something to make the green light come on, or perhaps just a fascia attached to somehing less substantial than a proper case) are still being unheeded. I saw at the show that Naim appear to adhere to the view that it is best to have a shelf free between various bits of equipment and it soooo spoils the effect to see wires dangling down through the gap , at least my other half thinks so. Somebody mentioned an April 1st realease date but my hopes aren't high.

quote:

Originally posted by longfellow:
Another vote/plea here to put the DAC please in a full size reference case. (A reference case looks better if the rest of the equipement is in one and the half size ones are a pain if you want it to sit in the middle of a fraim shelf.)

Impressive sound and to these ears HDX/DAC/555ps was a long way better than the mac/DAC/555ps (with optical cable and using itunes)- DG was at pains to point out that the same file type was used on both for the particular track used for the comparison.

Looking forward to developments on the HDX without onboard DAC.

On the subject purely of looks ,though, I note previous requests for Fraim filler (a full size case with nothing in it but something to make the green light come on, or perhaps just a fascia attached to somehing less substantial than a proper case) are still being unheeded. I saw at the show that Naim appear to adhere to the view that it is best to have a shelf free between various bits of equipment and it soooo spoils the effect to see wires dangling down through the gap , at least my other half thinks so. Somebody mentioned an April 1st realease date but my hopes aren't high.

I believe the OP said 5 series case so it has a full footprint.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
It doesn't surprise me that The HDX better source as was demonstrated due to it's player and interface though a computer with significant improvements in interface, player program and setup can be close.

Interestingly, the OP has also stated on another forum that he couldn't hear much difference between the HDX and the MacBook during the demo.

And of course we don't know how the Macbook was set up for the demo - i.e. was iTunes used and if so, what ripping and playback options were used?

What's promising here is that, judging from the OP, the Naim DAC is a cut above the DAC in the HDX. What's not certain is whether a PSU upgrade is necessary. On the face of it, it would seem to be the case (no pun intended).

In answer to Gary's point, the case does make a difference, especially if if the desired route to maximise performance is to add a PSU. I asked the question before, but doesn't 5 series cases preclude the use of burndy's, so are we talking snaics here? Notwithstanding, I think aesthetics are important when one is paying a lot of money. I have all reference series cases, of course, I would like to maintain that aspect. But I also want to keep the box count down to the minimum, for practical and aesthetic reasons.

Has to be a brundy with the CD PS's and I guess we just see where it falls with it's internal PS when it arrives.

It seems Naim has heard our wishes and I also think the Lavry may have had some influence in the launch of this new product...

I wonder how it would be positioned in reference to HDX, I would like to see it as part of the upgrade path for it, that would mean this DAC's performance would be really top.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB
I asked the question before, but doesn't 5 series cases preclude the use of burndy's,

Allen, the 555PS requires a burndy and does not accept a snaic. It would appear to me that the 5 series case has been adapted on the rear panel to accomodate the burndy imput socket.

the 5 series case maybe just for the test product. the market version may even be in the reference case, for £2000 i would hope it was. other wise its in the wrong league

quote:

do I budget for the DAC (with a decent PS built in) do I need to budget for very expensive additional power supplies?

at this point it looks like "just budget" but unless one of our forumites manages to get their crystal ball working ( accurately ) I guess we will just have to hold our enthusiasm in check.

Barrie

NaimDAC - Sweet. I now have an upgrade path to keep me poor.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

Well the item has surfaced and is being presented as we speak. I wish there was more information on the roadmap for these product developments. (There was a big roadmap published for the Naimnet products, indeed some of those still have not reached production stage I believe. But at least you have a reasonable idea what to expect.)

Do I budget for the DAC (with a decent PS built in) do I need to budget for very expensive additional power supplies? Is this product going to be further developed on the back of feedback received at the show, or indeed, here on the forum? Is it 5 series or reference series? Is there a HD555 being worked on and is it based on the knowledge learnt from the HDX? Should I be budgeting for the latter?

I agree 100%,
besides, I don't see the need for keeping the secret..., these products have a long lifespan and Naim info would stir potential customers' interest!

quote:

why not use a better PS than, say, what would be normal for the 5 series range

I suspect it is to do with a price point, by allowing PSU upgrades it gives the DAC more breadth in terms of potential buyers, and a longer term of ownership for purchasers due to it's upgradability and when as funds allow, which seems like a win/win situation . But like everyone here I am just guessing.

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:
With respect, maybe you should use yours and read your own post earlier in this thread. Aren't you claiming there that the appearance of this product has little to do with the recent excitement over the Lavry?

I AM saying exactly that. In answer to this post:-

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Well Barrie, I wonder how much of this was brought on by the furore caused last year by a certain alternative DAC. Maybe, just maybe, it has caused Naim to rather focus more acutely rather than keep saying we are thinking about it.

to which I answered:

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
The Lavry "furore" has been just the most vocal manifestation of a general market trend - please keep this in proportion.

You were saying was:-

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:
I do believe however that it is an insult to the intelligence of forum readers to ask them to believe that this product is not a response to the surge in interest in the Lavry and other DACs at the same price point.

I did not say this.

It wouldn't be a great revelation that Naim is reacting to the existence and increased use of DACs.
What I was and am saying (and quite specifically) is that "this product is not a response to the surge in interest in the Lavry" BUT in response to a general market trend.

So - in response to DACs in general - Yes.
Specifically or, even largely in response to the Lavry - No.

quote:

Specifically or, even largely in response to the Lavry - No.

Give them a moment Adam, and I sure this will be turned on it's head to read what people want to read.

Adam,

My impression is that Naim did not look seriously at producing a DAC until I demoed the Lavry at Promusica with Scott, JS, KC, and Mark and posted my thoughts on performance, or am I missing something here??

The plot?

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by r-tee:
the 5 series case maybe just for the test product. the market version may even be in the reference case, for £2000 i would hope it was. other wise its in the wrong league

Absolutely, and I would hope so too.

But DAC electronics don't require much 'real estate', if it ends up in a full reference case, there's a lot of space, why not use a better PS than, say, what would be normal for the 5 series range

Why would Naim demo a product in one case and then move production to another? I guess it's always possible, but why would you bother. Maybe they were able to use a very good internal ps and design the whole thing including the burndy to fit into the 5 series case.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
So - in response to DACs in general - Yes.
Specifically or, even largely in response to the Lavry - No.

The upsurge in general DAC popularity (which you concede was a factor in the development of this product) has manifested itself among forum members mainly in the form of increased interest in the Lavry. I believe I would likely be correct in saying that the majority (or at least a significant proportion) of forum members (and Naim users who may not be members, but who regularly read the posts here) who are currently using or are interested in buying a stand alone DAC are using or thinking of getting the DAxx.

So your comment above does not appear to make much sense. Frankly, I am at a loss to understand why the distinction you are drawing is so important - the whole issue seems rather childish to me.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
What ?!?!

Something like this?

quote:

Originally posted by jazzfan:
The upsurge in general DAC popularity (which you concede was a factor in the development of this product) has manifested itself among forum members mainly in the form of increased interest in the Lavry.

While we take the views of forum members seriously there is a bigger world out there. I think the "upsurge in general DAC popularity" might have manifested itself out there for all to see.

There is no concession here - I have CLAIMED it as a factor. It would be a bizarre company that decided to develop a DAC when no popularity existed.

Is there a new Naim DAC coming up in May or we need tp pay up items that we may not need in UNITI? Who can tell us?

Developing a DAC makes sense - if it sounds better than a bare CDX then the 2k price tag may be about right. Well done Naim!

Andrew Randle