The new Naim DAC
Posted by: rupert bear on 21 February 2009
The 10th floor of the Marriott hosts Doug G's demo of the new DAC. I was lucky to get the last ticket for the last show.
Demo used the HDX, 552/500, and SL2/n-sub. There was a little Mac sitting sweetly on its own bit of Fraim. First the HDX was played, then the HDX with 555PS (obvious vast improvement, as noted here before).
The new DAC was then fitted to the HDX, with the 555PS attached to the DAC instead. MASSIVE improvement, really quite exciting!
Finally the MACbook was introduced and plugged into the DAC/555PS. Also fantastic sound, which does rather make you think of the options - and the ramifications! The HDX/DAC did sound better, of course.
The DAC is in a 5-series case and has an internal p/s (not used at the show if I remember correctly). 5 buttons on the front a locking light (?).
Many thanks to Doug and Jason for the demo.
I'm first on the waiting list.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by rega1
quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Well, all I can say is that if this much dialogue has been elicited and almost nobody has heard the darn thing, what can we expect when it is demoed again at a show and is ready for sale?
people to still find fault in the new product like they are with the uniti.
rega1
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by 555
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by rega1
555,
I know it is a good one, funny or sarcastic, but I, for the life of me can't figure out the inside joke on the picture.
you gotta tell me.....
rega1
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
quote:
Barrie,
it will be interesting to see which way you eventually decide to go once the DAC is released, ie. HDX/HDX + DAC/ DAC. Interesting developments and potential options depending on how this DAC turns out.
Hi gary1(US)
I think it's great to have a manufacturer that offers this breadth of choice. My planned upgrade was an HDX in September-ish, but lets wait and see what comes out before then, (although another P/L may magically appear before September)
I like the elegance of the HDX solution, although I do appreciate the differing views on ripping/storage etc, the other part of the equation is my S/N, I appreciate the DAC in it's not going to be as good as a stand alone, but maybe it's good enough for me for a while, so at this moment it looks like a source first approach.
but lets see and hear what comes out , it may change my plan
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Slabwax
Good day all. I'm about to get blasted here.
I don't understand all the fuss over the psu for a Naim audio piece. Getting better sound out of ones rig by adding one more black box is NOTHING NEW around here. How many post have been banged out on ones computer regarding how a stageline sounds like crap unless you add at least a hicap if not a suppercap? You can't even talk about a headphone amp around here without someone bringing up a suppercap. Why should a Naim DAC be any different?
I can't tell you how many times I've had a good chuckle over the " I'm looking at a cd5i or a cd5x can I get some help" and the mind of the borg replies in great numbers " Just get a cdx2 It's only $3k more."
1: it's a prototype. 2: NOONE at the show has had a chance to compare it to the non-Naim flavor of the month. 3: When has Naim gear been the least expensive choice to be made?
In closing why don't we all wait and see how this unit ends up shaking out before we get our collective panties in a twist.
I'm done now!
xoxo
Dean
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by zorba
What a shame,I don't think this thread merits its title.
I just wasted my time reading 9 pages of bitchiness and nothing about something most on here have been wishing for. Only bad comment with no information about the actual product. These pages are more suited and what one would expect to read on another well known forum whenever the name of Naim is mentioned.
We asked for a SuperNait, we got it, now most are saying it don't sound like a naim, we now got a new surprise everyone product named the NaimUnity - Oh! it's not what I was waiting for! they shout those that were waiting for a NaimDac - but then what do you know they surprise us all again with our wish a NaimDac at last!!! Again it doesn't please us all.
On all three products I could most probably count the dissatisfied for each product on 2 hands so to say. If naim were only hoping to sell to these dissatisfied numbers then they would be out of business. Don't get me wrong EVERYONE counts but there is a whole world out there.
I discovered Naim for the 1st time in WhatHifi mag showing the CD5i with that SWING OUT TRAY. In a LIFESTYLE kind of way "how cool" I thought, I want one and hey what do you know I discovered Naim was a british brand with history and musical excellence and what I thought was going to be seriously expensive was actually affordable. The NaimUnity and all their new products I hope will increase their customer base which will also be good for us too.
This is a Naim forum lets get a new thread for the long awaited DAC with some real info and pictures please.
Regards
ps. could we also have the swing out tray on the new n-vi please
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by baz100:
quote:
Barrie,
it will be interesting to see which way you eventually decide to go once the DAC is released, ie. HDX/HDX + DAC/ DAC. Interesting developments and potential options depending on how this DAC turns out.
Hi gary1(US)
I think it's great to have a manufacturer that offers this breadth of choice. My planned upgrade was an HDX in September-ish, but lets wait and see what comes out before then, (although another P/L may magically appear before September)
I like the elegance of the HDX solution, although I do appreciate the differing views on ripping/storage etc, the other part of the equation is my S/N, I appreciate the DAC in it's not going to be as good as a stand alone, but maybe it's good enough for me for a while, so at this moment it looks like a source first approach.
but lets see and hear what comes out , it may change my plan
Barrie
Barrie, the problem is not that the SN DAC is bad, the problem is the connectivity to the DAC from your computer source. I've used Sonos and also heard the TC Konnekt, but while Sonos is fun and very listenable, it just doesn't meet the quality I want. The TC does a nice job, but no imterface.
The Naim DAC will work great, but I'm going to bet that the computer -->DAC hookup is where the issue will not be what you really want. I know others will disagree, but I would suspect that the digital out and signal processing by the HDX is far superior to a Mac/PC without spending oodles of money.
While I'll after to wait to hear as you, money aside, I'd bet that the HDX (source first) is the better sounding stand alone device.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by contaxg
If anybody has a photo of DAC pls post it here...
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
Hi Zorba,
You make some very valid points, and as you say the Naim product does a superb job, wherever it is in the pecking order.
Thank Heavens the Naim team know what they're doing.
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by The Strat (Fender)
quote:
Originally posted by contaxg:
If anybody has a photo of DAC pls post it here...
I doubt the company would really welcome that as it is still a prototype, and quite understandably, but needless to say it looks like a slim Nait amp without a volume control.
Fender (Strat)
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
Hi Gary1 (us)
"Barrie, the problem is not that the SN DAC is bad."
I agree, I think the S/N DAC is very capable
"I'd bet that the HDX (source first) is the better sounding stand alone device."
Time will tell, but you may well be right.
The S/N is great for me as I have the satellite, HD recorder, DVD, CD and when required the mac connected. If i use an HDX then I would just re-allocate the S/N dac to something else - there are some great HD concerts on TV these days.
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by contaxg:
If anybody has a photo of DAC pls post it here...
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
Just got back from the Bristol Show and the 10th Floor. The following is purely from memory - I didn't take any notes - so please take with a pinch of salt - particularly the running sequence of the demos.
The DAC is in development. The equipment on dem wasn't really a prototype - it didn't have its own intended internal power supply for example. The model on dem was housed in a 5 Series case and will no doubt be aimed at the 5 Series market at a target price of £2k. There isn't any "specification" for the DAC as yet. Target release is this summer.
I got the impression Naim might well be developing a range of DACs. MY guess (note the emphasis on MY) is that the £2k, 5 Series DAC, will be the mid-range model and will be upgradeable by the addition of external power supplies.
The show dem started with an HDX/552/500/SL2/n-Sub. It sounded really good, but not as good as a CDS3/555PS and nothing like as good as a cds555/555ps into the same amp/speakers - but bear in mind the dem room is NOT an ideal room and has been significantly changed from the Presidential Suite of old. The music source was HDD WAV files ripped on the HDX (I have no idea what any of that means!) and all original sources were Red Book 44.1 khz standard commercially available CDs.
The next dem introduced the 555ps to the HDX and the musical quality improved. IMHO the improvement wasn't worth the cost of a 555ps, (£5.5k) but no doubt others will disagree.
Dem 3 saw the new DAC replace the DAC in the HDX. The new DAC was powered by the 555ps (remember it hasn't got its intended internal power supply in place yet!). This combination struck me as being streets ahead of the HDX/555ps combination and worth the extra £7.5k over the bare HDX. On the basis of this part of the dem, I would currently conclude that the 5 Series DAC will be a better quality DAC than the one inside the HDX - and could be used as an external up-grade to the HDX.
The final part of the Dem saw the HDX removed completely and the same music track supplied from the Mac computer to the DAC/555ps. The sound quality was rubbish - IMHO of course (quite a few others in the dem felt the Mac source was better than the HDX source!!!). Well, not really rubbish, even Naim can make a good effort at getting the best out of a mediocre source. If you want to keep all your music on a memory stick (or similar) and be able to access it via your PC/Mac/i-Player etc etc then I suggest you give this Naim DAC a listen when it comes out. It will probably knock the pants off any other DAC at £2k and probably anything up to twice that price. And if at some stage you want to improve on the DAC, Naim's range of separate power supplies will be perfect partners such that your Naim DAC may never become obsolete.
I bought a copy of Phantom Limb at the show - on vinyl of course............
Hope this is of some (passing) interest to Forum members who aren't embroiled in their "specification" war.
cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
Thanks Don,
Nice to hear your experiences and thoughts
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Guido Fawkes
Thanks Don - really useful write-up.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Naijeru
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:
A Nait 5i-2 sounds fabulous with a CD555.
Never underestimate your little Nait.
Well that's reassuring,
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by rupert bear
quote:
Originally posted by zorba:
What a shame,I don't think this thread merits its title.
This is a Naim forum lets get a new thread for the long awaited DAC with some real info and pictures please.
Zorba, you're being a little unkind there.
I started the thread to report my brief experience of the product, as it says in the title. The reason there has been no more information is .... that there isn't any more information. At the dem I attended, Doug Graham said that he wouldn't answer specific technical questions on the DAC because it was an early pre-production model. Nothing has been finalised yet, so you'll have to hang on like the rest of us!
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Jay
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
I am pretty excited by a stand-alone DAC coming from Naim. I just refuse to wear the blinkers that so many here appear to. I prefer to see the bigger picture and I would absolutely love to see a 'roadmap' from Naim on this 'distributed audio' development. If it's been in development for so long what's the harm in throwing us some pointers.
Naim have been working with DAC's since many here were still in nappies. So they have a pretty good idea how to engineer them to spec and market forces (just look at the very successful 20 years or so of CDP manufacture).
Naim could have released a stand-alone DAC probably anytime in the last 5 years or more. What I believe has been at the fore-front of their R&D department is the Naimnet and HDX development, which as Adam has confirmed, ran pretty much hand-in-hand. This has also lead to the Uniti and, no doubt a HD555 or similar range of products in that family, yet to be released. It's in there, but no roadmap.
Naim have responded to 'market trends', those are the same trends that is inevitably seeing the death of CDP's and the emergence of distributed audio, no brownie points for seeing that one coming! Last year probably pushed that home when the emergence of one DAC caused so many waves, and saw the CDP range suddenly very vulnerable. As much as Adam says this wasn't the cause to develop a stand alone DAC, looking at the 'bigger picture' it's not a great leap in foresight to realise that Naim needed to get something out there, as he says, in response to customer wants and wishes. Stupid not to and not laughable either. Yet to be seen whether it hits the right spot at the right price. But I don't think they will be doing it twice or three times (a stand-alone DAC range), so they have to gauge this release very carefully, hence the early pre-production unit and an 'open-clinic' as another poster calls it. I don't think I have criticised the price as reported, only the fact that adding a power supply from the CDP range (I acknowledge that's great for people who still have the CDP / PS in their system) pushes the price up dramatically. On that, it will need to stand on it's own (4) feet above an added PSU against all the competitors.
I have made comments about the box because I want it to match my reference series boxes. With the kind of PSU upgrades it clearly stands in that range. With the price, it clearly stands in that range. In my Fraim, it clearly stands in that range. Why do so many have an issue with this view. I can see why some aren't bothered by the 5 series case, ultimately it's the sound that matters. Some would be happy to receive it in any case, some don't want it to appear pro audio, etc. The reality is whatever comes out it won't please everyone, but I would like to see the consistency in the box design in the ranges maintained.
It doesn't seem likely that the Cap range of PSU's will be used to provide the upgrade for this box, which is a shame. A half-size reference case sitting next to a hi-cap would look completely in keeping sitting nect to each other, on one shelf, and then you are talking total cost of more like £3k, which is plenty for a stand-alone DAC.
Many here think I have some axe to grind on this. Why would I? I own top-notch Naim equipment throughout the rest of my system, I spent huge amounts on Naim over 25 years.
I said in my earlier post on this thread that I applaud Naim finally on the verge of releasing this item, it plugs a gap in their range, which unfortunately the HDX nor Uniti did not fill.
Hi AllenB
Thank you for the very comprehensive response!
I'm very keen on hearing this DAC myself but truth be told haven't been able to replicate the sound quality (IMHO of course) of my cd5/fc2x let alone the turntable. In general I've found digital sources just missing that "something" in comparison with good analogue playback. Although my opinion must be tempered with my lack of experience of anything beyond cds3/xps2 level.
I don't care about the casing to be honest and am more interested in sound quality / pound, potential to upgrade in the future and would really like to see the ability to stream to the DAC.
Jay
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by 555
quote:
you gotta tell me ...
DAC/Duck Soup
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Jay
Another thank you to Don. Very interesting...
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
The final part of the Dem saw the HDX removed completely and the same music track supplied from the Mac computer to the DAC/555ps. The sound quality was rubbish - IMHO of course (quite a few others in the dem felt the Mac source was better than the HDX source!!!). Well, not really rubbish, even Naim can make a good effort at getting the best out of a mediocre source. If you want to keep all your music on a memory stick (or similar) and be able to access it via your PC/Mac/i-Player etc etc then I suggest you give this Naim DAC a listen when it comes out. It will probably knock the pants off any other DAC at £2k and probably anything up to twice that price. And if at some stage you want to improve on the DAC, Naim's range of separate power supplies will be perfect partners such that your Naim DAC may never become obsolete.Don
Blimey, that needs a lot of clarification.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
AllenB
You are not the only customer Naim has. So I doubt if they are going to finalise their DAC product(s) on the basis of one loud voice.
How would you respond to (say) three DACs - one at £1k, one at £2k in a 5 Series case and one at £4k in a full Reference case. Each one upgradable with an XPS2 or 555PS? Assume that the £1k DAC = HDX sound quality and the others represent excellent vfm improvements on the £1k model.
Also assume that the above proposition is purely hypothetical, which it is.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
Blimey, that needs a lot of clarification.
Oh!
Using the Mac computer as the source wasn't as good as using the HDX as the source. ie Mac/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub wasn't as good as HDX/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub. IMHO of course - others in the room felt otherwise (but for the life of me, I can't understand why!)
Does that help clarify - or not?
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Using the Mac computer as the source wasn't as good as using the HDX as the source. ie Mac/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub wasn't as good as HDX/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub. IMHO of course - others in the room felt otherwise (but for the life of me, I can't understand why!)
Does that help clarify - or not?
Cheers
Don
Not really, since I trust people's opinion enough regardless of personal taste to judge that rubbish is truly bad and very obviously not good. Whilst a few others felt the Mac was better as source, which is equally confusing and bewildering.
It seems you have already made your mind-up that the Mac is mediocre as a source component without saying as to why, settings or any other information?
If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by ken c
don A, yours is one of the few useful postings in this thread. thank you.
enjoy
ken
