The new Naim DAC
Posted by: rupert bear on 21 February 2009
The 10th floor of the Marriott hosts Doug G's demo of the new DAC. I was lucky to get the last ticket for the last show.
Demo used the HDX, 552/500, and SL2/n-sub. There was a little Mac sitting sweetly on its own bit of Fraim. First the HDX was played, then the HDX with 555PS (obvious vast improvement, as noted here before).
The new DAC was then fitted to the HDX, with the 555PS attached to the DAC instead. MASSIVE improvement, really quite exciting!
Finally the MACbook was introduced and plugged into the DAC/555PS. Also fantastic sound, which does rather make you think of the options - and the ramifications! The HDX/DAC did sound better, of course.
The DAC is in a 5-series case and has an internal p/s (not used at the show if I remember correctly). 5 buttons on the front a locking light (?).
Many thanks to Doug and Jason for the demo.
I'm first on the waiting list.
Demo used the HDX, 552/500, and SL2/n-sub. There was a little Mac sitting sweetly on its own bit of Fraim. First the HDX was played, then the HDX with 555PS (obvious vast improvement, as noted here before).
The new DAC was then fitted to the HDX, with the 555PS attached to the DAC instead. MASSIVE improvement, really quite exciting!
Finally the MACbook was introduced and plugged into the DAC/555PS. Also fantastic sound, which does rather make you think of the options - and the ramifications! The HDX/DAC did sound better, of course.
The DAC is in a 5-series case and has an internal p/s (not used at the show if I remember correctly). 5 buttons on the front a locking light (?).
Many thanks to Doug and Jason for the demo.
I'm first on the waiting list.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Naijeru
quote:Originally posted by kuma:
A Nait 5i-2 sounds fabulous with a CD555.
Never underestimate your little Nait.
Well that's reassuring,
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by rupert bear
quote:Originally posted by zorba:
What a shame,I don't think this thread merits its title.
This is a Naim forum lets get a new thread for the long awaited DAC with some real info and pictures please.
Zorba, you're being a little unkind there.
I started the thread to report my brief experience of the product, as it says in the title. The reason there has been no more information is .... that there isn't any more information. At the dem I attended, Doug Graham said that he wouldn't answer specific technical questions on the DAC because it was an early pre-production model. Nothing has been finalised yet, so you'll have to hang on like the rest of us!
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Jay
quote:Originally posted by AllenB:
I am pretty excited by a stand-alone DAC coming from Naim. I just refuse to wear the blinkers that so many here appear to. I prefer to see the bigger picture and I would absolutely love to see a 'roadmap' from Naim on this 'distributed audio' development. If it's been in development for so long what's the harm in throwing us some pointers.
Naim have been working with DAC's since many here were still in nappies. So they have a pretty good idea how to engineer them to spec and market forces (just look at the very successful 20 years or so of CDP manufacture).
Naim could have released a stand-alone DAC probably anytime in the last 5 years or more. What I believe has been at the fore-front of their R&D department is the Naimnet and HDX development, which as Adam has confirmed, ran pretty much hand-in-hand. This has also lead to the Uniti and, no doubt a HD555 or similar range of products in that family, yet to be released. It's in there, but no roadmap.
Naim have responded to 'market trends', those are the same trends that is inevitably seeing the death of CDP's and the emergence of distributed audio, no brownie points for seeing that one coming! Last year probably pushed that home when the emergence of one DAC caused so many waves, and saw the CDP range suddenly very vulnerable. As much as Adam says this wasn't the cause to develop a stand alone DAC, looking at the 'bigger picture' it's not a great leap in foresight to realise that Naim needed to get something out there, as he says, in response to customer wants and wishes. Stupid not to and not laughable either. Yet to be seen whether it hits the right spot at the right price. But I don't think they will be doing it twice or three times (a stand-alone DAC range), so they have to gauge this release very carefully, hence the early pre-production unit and an 'open-clinic' as another poster calls it. I don't think I have criticised the price as reported, only the fact that adding a power supply from the CDP range (I acknowledge that's great for people who still have the CDP / PS in their system) pushes the price up dramatically. On that, it will need to stand on it's own (4) feet above an added PSU against all the competitors.
I have made comments about the box because I want it to match my reference series boxes. With the kind of PSU upgrades it clearly stands in that range. With the price, it clearly stands in that range. In my Fraim, it clearly stands in that range. Why do so many have an issue with this view. I can see why some aren't bothered by the 5 series case, ultimately it's the sound that matters. Some would be happy to receive it in any case, some don't want it to appear pro audio, etc. The reality is whatever comes out it won't please everyone, but I would like to see the consistency in the box design in the ranges maintained.
It doesn't seem likely that the Cap range of PSU's will be used to provide the upgrade for this box, which is a shame. A half-size reference case sitting next to a hi-cap would look completely in keeping sitting nect to each other, on one shelf, and then you are talking total cost of more like £3k, which is plenty for a stand-alone DAC.
Many here think I have some axe to grind on this. Why would I? I own top-notch Naim equipment throughout the rest of my system, I spent huge amounts on Naim over 25 years.
I said in my earlier post on this thread that I applaud Naim finally on the verge of releasing this item, it plugs a gap in their range, which unfortunately the HDX nor Uniti did not fill.
Hi AllenB
Thank you for the very comprehensive response!
I'm very keen on hearing this DAC myself but truth be told haven't been able to replicate the sound quality (IMHO of course) of my cd5/fc2x let alone the turntable. In general I've found digital sources just missing that "something" in comparison with good analogue playback. Although my opinion must be tempered with my lack of experience of anything beyond cds3/xps2 level.
I don't care about the casing to be honest and am more interested in sound quality / pound, potential to upgrade in the future and would really like to see the ability to stream to the DAC.
Jay
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by 555
quote:you gotta tell me ...
DAC/Duck Soup
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Jay
Another thank you to Don. Very interesting...
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
The final part of the Dem saw the HDX removed completely and the same music track supplied from the Mac computer to the DAC/555ps. The sound quality was rubbish - IMHO of course (quite a few others in the dem felt the Mac source was better than the HDX source!!!). Well, not really rubbish, even Naim can make a good effort at getting the best out of a mediocre source. If you want to keep all your music on a memory stick (or similar) and be able to access it via your PC/Mac/i-Player etc etc then I suggest you give this Naim DAC a listen when it comes out. It will probably knock the pants off any other DAC at £2k and probably anything up to twice that price. And if at some stage you want to improve on the DAC, Naim's range of separate power supplies will be perfect partners such that your Naim DAC may never become obsolete.Don
Blimey, that needs a lot of clarification.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
AllenB
You are not the only customer Naim has. So I doubt if they are going to finalise their DAC product(s) on the basis of one loud voice.
How would you respond to (say) three DACs - one at £1k, one at £2k in a 5 Series case and one at £4k in a full Reference case. Each one upgradable with an XPS2 or 555PS? Assume that the £1k DAC = HDX sound quality and the others represent excellent vfm improvements on the £1k model.
Also assume that the above proposition is purely hypothetical, which it is.
Cheers
Don
You are not the only customer Naim has. So I doubt if they are going to finalise their DAC product(s) on the basis of one loud voice.
How would you respond to (say) three DACs - one at £1k, one at £2k in a 5 Series case and one at £4k in a full Reference case. Each one upgradable with an XPS2 or 555PS? Assume that the £1k DAC = HDX sound quality and the others represent excellent vfm improvements on the £1k model.
Also assume that the above proposition is purely hypothetical, which it is.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:Blimey, that needs a lot of clarification.
Oh!
Using the Mac computer as the source wasn't as good as using the HDX as the source. ie Mac/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub wasn't as good as HDX/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub. IMHO of course - others in the room felt otherwise (but for the life of me, I can't understand why!)
Does that help clarify - or not?
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
Not really, since I trust people's opinion enough regardless of personal taste to judge that rubbish is truly bad and very obviously not good. Whilst a few others felt the Mac was better as source, which is equally confusing and bewildering.quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Using the Mac computer as the source wasn't as good as using the HDX as the source. ie Mac/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub wasn't as good as HDX/new-DAC/555PS/552/500/SL2/n-Sub. IMHO of course - others in the room felt otherwise (but for the life of me, I can't understand why!)
Does that help clarify - or not?
Cheers
Don
It seems you have already made your mind-up that the Mac is mediocre as a source component without saying as to why, settings or any other information?
If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by ken c
don A, yours is one of the few useful postings in this thread. thank you.
enjoy
ken
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Naijeru
quote:Originally posted by AllenB:
I would not be averse to a HDX without the hard disks and with this apparent level (or better) of DAC on board. Upgradeable with PSU's on all the circuits, so you don't need two power points (and therefore two Powerlines). Wireless module as an optional extra (although I probably would not need it, but some will). I'm probably talking around about a HD555 here in any case, i.e. a high end streamer, but that also implies HD's somewhere, for me I would rather have the choice to use my own NAS than a Naim NAS. Not sure if Naim will allow that freedom on their high end product.
Regards
Allen
I think digital audio is still too young to support a "high-end" wireless streamer. I don't see the necessary reliability in wireless tech or definition of just what "distributed audio" means yet from a component perspective. This whole computer audio thing all feels more wild wild west to me, which is very exciting, but definitely not 500 series territory imo.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
quote:model
quote:Doug Graham said that he wouldn't answer specific technical questions on the DAC because it was an early pre-production model.
Thanks for making this point clear for us all, it may help calm the clamour for infinite detail which the Naim DAC seems to have generated.
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by u5227470736789454
quote:If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?
Hi PMR,
It's all about what individuals hear and like, we will all have to wait until the unit/s are released and then we can all make our own personal choices.
IMHO
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
It's a challenge for sure.quote:Originally posted by Naijeru:
I think digital audio is still too young to support a "high-end" wireless streamer. I don't see the necessary reliability in wireless tech or definition of just what "distributed audio" means yet from a component perspective. This whole computer audio thing all feels more wild wild west to me, which is very exciting, but definitely not 500 series territory imo.
Some of us are sitting on the edge of technolgy, because we enjoy its challenges and it's fun. In many respects our systems are already beyond the 500 series, including sound quality, when working I jest.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by zorba
quote:Originally posted by rupert bear:quote:Originally posted by zorba:
What a shame,I don't think this thread merits its title.
This is a Naim forum lets get a new thread for the long awaited DAC with some real info and pictures please.
Zorba, you're being a little unkind there.
I started the thread to report my brief experience of the product, as it says in the title. The reason there has been no more information is .... that there isn't any more information. At the dem I attended, Doug Graham said that he wouldn't answer specific technical questions on the DAC because it was an early pre-production model. Nothing has been finalised yet, so you'll have to hang on like the rest of us!
rupert bear,
I do apologise if I have come across to you in a meaning not intended. The actual thread title is a very right one but I was aiming at most of the tit 4 tat around the unveiling of these new products which has no real bearing to what we would like to read in this thread. You and some others that were actually there have been as informative as can be and I read with interest. I was merely hoping that all meaningless bickering could stop to make way for informative information and pictures if they exist as and when available. I was not meaning to sound demanding and right this moment.
Reading my quote above about starting a new thread for the dac does sound unfair, I apologise again although it was not directed at you or the topic.
I hope that we can all continue this one with the good spirit you started it with together with the enthusiasm it deserves.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
Agreed.quote:Originally posted by baz100:quote:If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?
Hi PMR,
It's all about what individuals hear and like, we will all have to wait until the unit/s are released and then we can all make our own personal choices.
IMHO
Barrie
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:Not really, since I trust people's opinion enough regardless of personal taste to judge that rubbish is truly bad and very obviously not good. Whilst a few others felt the Mac was better as source, which is equally confusing and bewildering.
It seems you have already made your mind-up that the Mac is mediocre as a source component without saying as to why, settings or any other information?
If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?
PMR,
I made my mind up that the Mac source wasn't as good as the HDX source, based only on what I heard today. Perhaps others can tell you the precise details of the Mac that Doug was using. All I know is that it was supposed to be as good a PC source as many people will probably have and therefore representative of the sort of use that Naim think their DAC will see. The DAC will probably be designed to accept up to 8 digital sources (Mac, USB, God knows what....). I recal Doug stating at the begining of the dem that a modern trend is for many people to want the flexibility of storing and accessing their music from computer/HDD and to be able to RIP their CD/LP collections to these storage formats - even if this convenience leads to a(n) (inevitable?) drop in musical quality.
I can't account for the people in the audience who said they prefered the Mac source. But I reported it as a fact. No doubt Naim's DAC marketting Dept were exstatic!!
To my ears, the Mac source sounded edgy, and was difficult to follow - you spent too much time trying to decipher the instruments to be able to follow the vocals. With the HDX source, the instruments were so easy to follow that you had plenty of time to listen to the vocals. The whole music just gelled together.
I have no doubt that the Naim DAC will be as good as it gets at its price-point. This is based on what I heard today and the historic fact that Naim usually get these things right.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Pev
I was at the dem this afternoon and I entirely endorse Don Atkinson's listening impressions posted above.
The bare HDX sounded excellent, adding the 555PS sounded even better but when the DAC was added with the PS transferred to it there was an improvement I'd be happy to pay £2k for. The MAC sounded unengaging. Leaving aside all the market positioning stuff on this thread the extra boxes made the music sound better - what's wrong with that? It all made perfect sense if you were just listening to it.
I've done all the nerdy EAC rip, Asio drivers + DAC thing and apart from being a total pain in the arse it (to my ears) doesn't bear sustained listening. It sounds very close to my CDS2 on a quick switch over but the apparently tiny differences make it uncomfortable when you listen to the music as opposed to the sound for any length of time. I appreciate there are infinite variables regarding choice of DAC etc. and different people's preferences may vary - if laptop + DAC floats your boat, fine - you've saved some money. I'll be voting with my wallet and getting an HDX, and eventually a Naim DAC. I'll use my laptop for internet radio and web streams which will get more value from the DAC.
By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!
The bare HDX sounded excellent, adding the 555PS sounded even better but when the DAC was added with the PS transferred to it there was an improvement I'd be happy to pay £2k for. The MAC sounded unengaging. Leaving aside all the market positioning stuff on this thread the extra boxes made the music sound better - what's wrong with that? It all made perfect sense if you were just listening to it.
I've done all the nerdy EAC rip, Asio drivers + DAC thing and apart from being a total pain in the arse it (to my ears) doesn't bear sustained listening. It sounds very close to my CDS2 on a quick switch over but the apparently tiny differences make it uncomfortable when you listen to the music as opposed to the sound for any length of time. I appreciate there are infinite variables regarding choice of DAC etc. and different people's preferences may vary - if laptop + DAC floats your boat, fine - you've saved some money. I'll be voting with my wallet and getting an HDX, and eventually a Naim DAC. I'll use my laptop for internet radio and web streams which will get more value from the DAC.
By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
Hi Ken
Nice to hear from you again - how's the wiring/cable installation and Power Cords??
Cheers
Don
Nice to hear from you again - how's the wiring/cable installation and Power Cords??
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by gary1 (US)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pev:
I'll use my laptop for internet radio and web streams which will get more value from the DAC.
QUOTE]
Pev,
You might get that internet radio through anHDX software upgrade without the need for the laptop. Since the uniti is ethernet connected as is the HDX and has internet radio access there is every reason to suspect (hope) that this would be enabled on the HDX at some point.
Just a thought
I'll use my laptop for internet radio and web streams which will get more value from the DAC.
QUOTE]
Pev,
You might get that internet radio through anHDX software upgrade without the need for the laptop. Since the uniti is ethernet connected as is the HDX and has internet radio access there is every reason to suspect (hope) that this would be enabled on the HDX at some point.
Just a thought
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!
Agreed. I was really impressed with the room using an HDD(Don't know whose!)/Uniti/n-Sats/n-Sub. Truely excellent value and a really, really captivating sound.
I didn't ask how the music had been sourced and transferred to the HDD...........anyone?
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by gary1 (US)
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:quote:By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!
Agreed. I was really impressed with the room using an HDD(Don't know whose!)/Uniti/n-Sats/n-Sub. Truely excellent value and a really, really captivating sound.
I didn't ask how the music had been sourced and transferred to the HDD...........anyone?
Cheers
Don
Don, the next upgrade for the HDX is to include ripping to an external NAS and the ability to transfer files from the HDX elsewhere. I would take a guess and say that HDX ripped music was probably put on the HDD.
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
Just in case things were demmed differently at different sessions.....I was at the 11:30 dem on Sunday.....as was our (other) expert, Mr Frank Abela.
Cheers
Don
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:I would take a guess and say that HDX ripped music was probably put on the HDD.
So would I Gary, but as I said, I didn't ask......but I was truely impressed.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 22 February 2009 by PMR
Thanks for the report. Very interesting!quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
[QUOTE]Not really, since I trust people's opinion enough regardless of ....