The new Naim DAC

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
I would not be averse to a HDX without the hard disks and with this apparent level (or better) of DAC on board. Upgradeable with PSU's on all the circuits, so you don't need two power points (and therefore two Powerlines). Wireless module as an optional extra (although I probably would not need it, but some will). I'm probably talking around about a HD555 here in any case, i.e. a high end streamer, but that also implies HD's somewhere, for me I would rather have the choice to use my own NAS than a Naim NAS. Not sure if Naim will allow that freedom on their high end product.

Regards

Allen

I think digital audio is still too young to support a "high-end" wireless streamer. I don't see the necessary reliability in wireless tech or definition of just what "distributed audio" means yet from a component perspective. This whole computer audio thing all feels more wild wild west to me, which is very exciting, but definitely not 500 series territory imo.

quote:

model

quote:

Doug Graham said that he wouldn't answer specific technical questions on the DAC because it was an early pre-production model.

Thanks for making this point clear for us all, it may help calm the clamour for infinite detail which the Naim DAC seems to have generated.

Barrie

quote:

If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?

Hi PMR,
It's all about what individuals hear and like, we will all have to wait until the unit/s are released and then we can all make our own personal choices.

IMHO

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
I think digital audio is still too young to support a "high-end" wireless streamer. I don't see the necessary reliability in wireless tech or definition of just what "distributed audio" means yet from a component perspective. This whole computer audio thing all feels more wild wild west to me, which is very exciting, but definitely not 500 series territory imo.

It's a challenge for sure.

Some of us are sitting on the edge of technolgy, because we enjoy its challenges and it's fun. In many respects our systems are already beyond the 500 series, including sound quality, when working I jest.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert bear:

quote:

Originally posted by zorba:
What a shame,I don't think this thread merits its title.

This is a Naim forum lets get a new thread for the long awaited DAC with some real info and pictures please.

Zorba, you're being a little unkind there.

I started the thread to report my brief experience of the product, as it says in the title. The reason there has been no more information is .... that there isn't any more information. At the dem I attended, Doug Graham said that he wouldn't answer specific technical questions on the DAC because it was an early pre-production model. Nothing has been finalised yet, so you'll have to hang on like the rest of us!

rupert bear,

I do apologise if I have come across to you in a meaning not intended. The actual thread title is a very right one but I was aiming at most of the tit 4 tat around the unveiling of these new products which has no real bearing to what we would like to read in this thread. You and some others that were actually there have been as informative as can be and I read with interest. I was merely hoping that all meaningless bickering could stop to make way for informative information and pictures if they exist as and when available. I was not meaning to sound demanding and right this moment.

Reading my quote above about starting a new thread for the dac does sound unfair, I apologise again although it was not directed at you or the topic.

I hope that we can all continue this one with the good spirit you started it with together with the enthusiasm it deserves.

quote:

Originally posted by baz100:

quote:

If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?

Hi PMR,
It's all about what individuals hear and like, we will all have to wait until the unit/s are released and then we can all make our own personal choices.

IMHO

Barrie

Agreed.

quote:

Not really, since I trust people's opinion enough regardless of personal taste to judge that rubbish is truly bad and very obviously not good. Whilst a few others felt the Mac was better as source, which is equally confusing and bewildering.

It seems you have already made your mind-up that the Mac is mediocre as a source component without saying as to why, settings or any other information?

If this product is going to be a success, I feel it needs to work with Mac/PC etc., so it would be interesting to hear what sounded different like any other review?

PMR,

I made my mind up that the Mac source wasn't as good as the HDX source, based only on what I heard today. Perhaps others can tell you the precise details of the Mac that Doug was using. All I know is that it was supposed to be as good a PC source as many people will probably have and therefore representative of the sort of use that Naim think their DAC will see. The DAC will probably be designed to accept up to 8 digital sources (Mac, USB, God knows what....). I recal Doug stating at the begining of the dem that a modern trend is for many people to want the flexibility of storing and accessing their music from computer/HDD and to be able to RIP their CD/LP collections to these storage formats - even if this convenience leads to a(n) (inevitable?) drop in musical quality.

I can't account for the people in the audience who said they prefered the Mac source. But I reported it as a fact. No doubt Naim's DAC marketting Dept were exstatic!!

To my ears, the Mac source sounded edgy, and was difficult to follow - you spent too much time trying to decipher the instruments to be able to follow the vocals. With the HDX source, the instruments were so easy to follow that you had plenty of time to listen to the vocals. The whole music just gelled together.

I have no doubt that the Naim DAC will be as good as it gets at its price-point. This is based on what I heard today and the historic fact that Naim usually get these things right.

Cheers

Don

I was at the dem this afternoon and I entirely endorse Don Atkinson's listening impressions posted above.
The bare HDX sounded excellent, adding the 555PS sounded even better but when the DAC was added with the PS transferred to it there was an improvement I'd be happy to pay £2k for. The MAC sounded unengaging. Leaving aside all the market positioning stuff on this thread the extra boxes made the music sound better - what's wrong with that? It all made perfect sense if you were just listening to it.
I've done all the nerdy EAC rip, Asio drivers + DAC thing and apart from being a total pain in the arse it (to my ears) doesn't bear sustained listening. It sounds very close to my CDS2 on a quick switch over but the apparently tiny differences make it uncomfortable when you listen to the music as opposed to the sound for any length of time. I appreciate there are infinite variables regarding choice of DAC etc. and different people's preferences may vary - if laptop + DAC floats your boat, fine - you've saved some money. I'll be voting with my wallet and getting an HDX, and eventually a Naim DAC. I'll use my laptop for internet radio and web streams which will get more value from the DAC.
By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!

Hi Ken

Nice to hear from you again - how's the wiring/cable installation and Power Cords??

Cheers

Don

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pev:
I'll use my laptop for internet radio and web streams which will get more value from the DAC.
QUOTE]

Pev,

You might get that internet radio through anHDX software upgrade without the need for the laptop. Since the uniti is ethernet connected as is the HDX and has internet radio access there is every reason to suspect (hope) that this would be enabled on the HDX at some point.

Just a thought

quote:

By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!

Agreed. I was really impressed with the room using an HDD(Don't know whose!)/Uniti/n-Sats/n-Sub. Truely excellent value and a really, really captivating sound.

I didn't ask how the music had been sourced and transferred to the HDD...........anyone?

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

quote:

By the way, the UNITI sounded superb for the money - if I didn't already have so many Naim boxes I'd be very tempted to settle for the easy life!

Agreed. I was really impressed with the room using an HDD(Don't know whose!)/Uniti/n-Sats/n-Sub. Truely excellent value and a really, really captivating sound.

I didn't ask how the music had been sourced and transferred to the HDD...........anyone?

Cheers

Don

Don, the next upgrade for the HDX is to include ripping to an external NAS and the ability to transfer files from the HDX elsewhere. I would take a guess and say that HDX ripped music was probably put on the HDD.

Just in case things were demmed differently at different sessions.....I was at the 11:30 dem on Sunday.....as was our (other) expert, Mr Frank Abela.
Cheers

Don

quote:

I would take a guess and say that HDX ripped music was probably put on the HDD.

So would I Gary, but as I said, I didn't ask......but I was truely impressed.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
[QUOTE]Not really, since I trust people's opinion enough regardless of ....

Thanks for the report. Very interesting!

Well - I have managed to wait 10 pages before adding my own brief comment.

Don

Thanks for the comments regarding your actual demo of the prototype unit. It is always nice to hear from someone who has actually heard the damn thing.

I would be very interested in a Naim DAC HOWEVER if in order to achieve maximum musical performance one of the requirements is to also purchase a HDX than things are starting to get a bit out of control (ie HDX/DAC/555PS) - thats starting to approach CD555 price territory.

There needs to be a way to access ones files from devices other than the HDX (ie what Linn have done with their streamers) and have maximum musical performance. I do not want to purchase a $9K box just to serve up my music files. Just my two cents.

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by 555:

quote:

you gotta tell me ...

DAC/Duck Soup

ahhhhh. very good Sir.

rega1

quote:

I would be very interested in a Naim DAC HOWEVER if in order to achieve maximum musical performance one of the requirements is to also purchase a HDX than things are starting to get a bit out of control (ie HDX/DAC/555PS) - thats starting to approach CD555 price territory.

There needs to be a way to access ones files from devices other than the HDX

It isn't mandatory to buy an HDX. There are lots of ways to create files of music and store them other than with an HDX. And for many people this will be perfectly adequate.

I have no doubt that the Naim DAC will do as good a job as many at decoding these files into an analogue signal.

I'm also sure that there will soon be lots of talk on this forum of suitable (cheaper) equipment/systems, other than an HDX, to RIP/store/replay digitally stored music. Not everybody agrees that Naim's CDX2 is the best cd player at its price-point, nor that it is a mandatory source for cd replay in a 252/300 system. Could be the same with the HDX.

Perhaps

cheers

Don

Gregg,

As Don says there are a multitude of ways over sending your music to the DAC. The problem with a "DAC", is that unless it is a streamer, the weak link in the system is always going to be the link from the computer source to the DAC. This is why and I'm not surprised at all by the fact that Don found the HDX dig out as the source to be vastly superior to the MAC. Contrary opinions noted.

If the DAC is converted to a streamer with appropriate electronics, software, ethernet connection, etc.. then that's a different story. Until Naim does this with the DAC or produces another product, then as Don aptly points out you will need another source that can give you a dig out signal better than what your computer can to up the ante.

No surprise to me that this is now or will be revealed with further audition of the DAC as it goes towards production. As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Hi Ken

Nice to hear from you again - how's the wiring/cable installation and Power Cords??

Cheers

Don

hi don,

finished. too busy enjoying the music now. powerlines are awesome and extremely good value for money.

enjoy
ken

I've heard a number of pre production units from Naim over the years because until now, we've been near the US distriubtor and not one matched the performance of the finished product. That it already is reported to sound very good is extremely encouraging.

Amazing, isn't it; 10 pages and 283 posts, yet you can count the number of contributors who actually heard the DAC at the Bristol show on the fingers of one hand.

Well, I actually attended the final session on Saturday, but have not had time to read through this thread until now, hence my delayed posting. Rupert Bear's and Don Atkinson's comments pretty much reflect my experience of the dem. A couple of details I would add that may perhaps have been overlooked:-

1) Doug Graham made no secret about the fact that the system in use was a top-line system. Therefore, in the context of such a system, it made sense, in Naim's opinion, to power the DAC with the best available power supply, ie. 555PSU.

2) The DAC itself is, as has been pointed out, still in development and its specification has by no means been finalised. For this reason it is entirely understandable that Doug would not take questions about the DAC itself. The only thing he did say was that when it was demmed with the HDX as a source, it was connected using spdif.

3) Doug pointed out that there were many possible settings on the MacBook and that it was felt that the optimum settings were used to get the best sound possible.

To try and get into technical specifics about the kit, as some have suggested up-thread, is IMO to miss the point entirely. The point, as I see it, was to demonstrate the extent to which the new DAC could acquit itself in a high-end Naim system. I felt it did so very well indeed. It should be acknowledged, however, that production models will have their own internal power supply - and in the context of prospective owners' own individual systems, an external PSU may not be necessary. However, the option is there, and it is to Naim's credit that this is the case.

I think that on the basis of what I heard on Saturday at the show, Naim are on to a pretty good thing here and that the production model will sound even better than what we heard at the dem.

Bravo Naim.

Hi Don

Perhaps I should clarify - I am referring to using the HDX for the ripping,storage and distribution of music files in order to achieve maximum performance from the Naim DAC.

I was not convinced by Naims initial claim that their ripping engine is the "be all and end all" of rippers. I believe that solutions such as EAC can easily accomplish the same thing (and most likely even surpass). As such I am fully confident in Rips which are obtained by other means rather than via the HDX and I do not require it (HDX) to digitize my music.

What I am concerned with is that the Naim DAC "requires" a HDX to "serve up" the files in order to maximize its performance. Linn, for example, can achieve maximum performance by using a readily available NAS controlled by various open source software solutions. I want to be able to extract maximum performance from a Naim DAC without being tied to their proprietary ripping and serving hardware.

Regards
Gregg

Firstly I thought we would be listening to a new speaker on the tenth floor!

I haven't read all the posts on this topic but I was at the 1230pm demo on Friday and have to say the HDX with the 555ps sounded very good but then with the prototype DAC powered by the 555ps it was even better.

As Doug emphasised this was a PROTOTYPE dac and it may well improve before its final release.

It certainly blew the MAC away.

As for the comment about costs approaching the higher end CD players I think we need to consider that the HDX is the beginning of a new method of replay. Whilst it may be true that a 555 cd player or even a cds3 etc will outperform the HDX\DAC\555ps combo as it currently stands it will no doubt improve over time.

What happens if\when cd transports are no longer made by Philips or SOny et al because of the shift towards downloads. CD discs themselves may not be made apart from some specialist producers. I think the HDX may become the norm in the long run rather than the alternative to cd players.

The other factor is convenience and there is no doubt that the HDX route is more convenient than several hundred CD cases etc etc. particularly when I may only play a couple of tracks from some of them.

I agree a cheaper\smaller Naim DAC to work with a pc would have been nice and it may come in time.

However, Naim are working at getting the best they can from ripped files and the results are imho pretty good. The HDX is an upgradeable source which offers high quality and convenience. Like the rest of the Naim range I think it will get better over time.

I think we should be grateful Naim are pushing the boundaries whilst still supporting the original equipment they produced.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
As Ferenc said many moons ago when the whole Lavry thing started, that he could get great computer based audio, but the set-up cost about the same as an HDX.

Gary

You have not had the privilege of listening to the Linn streamers - I and many other customers of my local dealer have. I was present at several demos where a CD was placed in a generic laptop computer - ripped in an instant using EAC (or RipFactory) and then streamed from a computer (Mac or PC) to a DS. A computer setup that did not "cost about the same as an HDX" yet provided an amazing result - when compared (at the same dealer) to a CDX2-CDS3 and HDX.

I want a Naim DAC to provide maximum performance when playing back files 1) ripped via means other than a HDX and 2) not requiring a $9K box to provide the dig out.

Gregg