Australian Naimites- arial recommendations please for NAT01

Jens,

A standard TV co-ax connection is 75 Ohm, and an FM input is 300Ohm IIRC, so your connection is totally unsuitable for the Nat01.

Jeez, I wish I had an '01' it's reckoned by most to be the best tuner ever made PERIOD, so I think you owe it a decent antenna. I can't comment on the Ron Smith availability, but all I've ever read on the subject suggests that they are 'the business' - so go get one !!!, or at least a suitable alternative, you won't be sorry (always assuming that you Aussies have something decent on the airwaves of course)

Sorry about the jibe, just kidding really, but don't you think that a Nat01 is a bit over the top for listening to the cricket ??

Nada
Mike

Hi Jens,
my nat01 is connected to my tv arial, complete with mast head amp, which is a must in my particular area of the Blue Mountains west of Sydney. The reception here is very good at all times of the year and there is no detrimental effect from the mast head amp. You must also use the best quality coax you can get and take the usual precautions and not run it parallel, or indeed, near power wires. I also believe that Hills makes an fm arial.
As for you MJSM, you're right because the "yobbos" here also listen to the footy and horse racing - with the nat01 you can even hear the horses fart.
Pete

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Originally posted by AussiePete:

As for you MJSM, you're right because the "yobbos" here also listen to the footy and horse racing - with the nat01 you can even hear the horses fart.
Pete

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Bloody sacrelige, you aussies should'nt be allowed to own one .... BTW, how would you say the PRaT factor on the horse farting was - ha ha LOL (rolling about on the floor in agony)

"As for you MJSM, you're right because the "yobbos" here also listen to the footy and horse racing - with the nat01 you can even hear the horses fart."

Does the NAT01 do AM as well now, does it?
Gus

Have to disagree on the RF amplifier. When I lived in the west of NSW, about 100km from the nearest transmitter, I briefly tried a masthead amp on the 9 element purpose built FM antenna I was using on my NAT 03.

It just absolutely killed the 03 stone dead, flat, compressed & generally horrible. It was much livelier and more listenable with the weak unamplified signal, albeit slightly hissy. Now I'm back on the coast with line of sight to a very strong signal a 3 element roof mounted jobbie works just fine.

Steer clear of whip antennas too if you can, I tried one of those here and it had a similar effect to the RF amp, but in a slightly different way. Apart from losing most of the dynamics it also made the sound diffuse and unfocussed.

BTW there is one decent station here, it's called ABC Classic FM.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ross Blackman:
I understand that the Australian Naim distributor Warren Stolmack has imported Ron Smith antennas for a few people in your situation - it might be worth giving him a call.

Warren kindly imported a G17 for me about 15 years ago. I've dragged it all round the world with me ever since and it's purchase is a decision I never once regretted. I used it initially on a 101 and more recently on an 02. An 01 I'd have thought deserves nothing less.

Damon J

Should have mentioned that my current antenna is a Hills, and quite good it is too. Wouldn't mind a G17 though.

Gus, outside capital cities horse racing and football are usually on FM.

quote:

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A standard TV co-ax connection is 75 Ohm, and an FM input is 300Ohm IIRC, so your connection is totally unsuitable for the Nat01.

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I think you'll find this in incorrect. 75ohm input on the 01, yes? It's a PAL plug after all.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Bloody sacrelige, you aussies should'nt be allowed to own one .... BTW, how would you say the PRaT factor on the horse farting was - ha ha LOL (rolling about on the floor in agony)

[/QUOTE]
MJSM. So natural you could almost smell it!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Rico:

quote:

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A standard TV co-ax connection is 75 Ohm, and an FM input is 300Ohm IIRC, so your connection is totally unsuitable for the Nat01.

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I think you'll find this in incorrect. 75ohm input on the 01, yes? It's a PAL plug after all.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Sorry Rico, not with you here, what do you mean PAL, its supposed to be a standard co-ax, but that does'nt mean that the rest of the antenna arrangement is OK, TV's use a Yaggi array, FM radios need a dipole type !! (folded or unfolded whichever you can rig), either way their not compatable (I know, cause I tried it too).

Can't remember 100% about the impedences though, I just seem to remember that FM aerials are generally 300Ohm, and I'm 99% positive that TV co-ax cable is 75 Ohm.

We obviously need a real expert to arbitrate here - Andy !!!!

Cheers

Aussie Pete, I think you need to switch the smell filter ON, it should cure the horsie odour your experiencing (LOL, can't comment on the footie smells here though)

PAL is TV terminology, not applicable here. It stands for Phase Alternating Line. A dipole is the signal generating element on a Yagi array, the one the cable is connected to, but can also be used on its own as a whip.

Some antennae have more than one dipole, if so the dipoles are physically joined to each other by conductors. The other elements are directors (in front of the dipole) and reflectors (rear). They are insulated from the dipole(s). More directors and reflectors means more gain but the antenna becomes more directional.

All TV & FM type Yagis have 300 ohms output impedance. They are either (rarely these days) directly joined to 300 ohm balanced ribbon cable or via an impedance matching device called a balun (short for balanced to unbalanced) to 75 ohm coaxial cable, normally but not always at the antenna end. Ribbon cable is not often used because it is susceptible to radiated interference, but does have lower signal losses, which matters if a long cable run is used, say over 20 metres in a marginal installation. Coaxial cable is much less susceptible to radiated interference because of its unbalanced design; the conductor is shielded by the earth (the outer braid).

There are various type of 75 ohm plugs and sockets, but they all work the same way. Hope that helps

[This message was edited by bazz on TUESDAY 11 November 2003 at 12:29.]

Thanks Baz, my aerial theory is very rusty I see, however, your highly competent reply does'nt answer the basic question of why FM receivers need a different type of aerial, I know this to be true since I tried it once, and the signal was absolutely crap.

This changed enormously when I fitted a dedicated FM socket connected to a fairly cheap (B&Q) FM aerial (basically a folded dipole in the shape of a circle).

Maybe its something to do with the directionality if TV reception, i.e. you need to be pointing at the transmitter or sub-station to get a good picture, whereas FM seems to be much more multidirectional.

Wait a minute FM is'nt line of site is it, IIRC correctly it's bounced off the ionosphere and so does'nt need to be directional ...

Anyway, simple answer I think here is to get a dedicated FM aerial and socket, and keep well away from the TV (nasty things)

Cheers
Mike

Hi Jens
I just thought that I had better tell you my experiences. I have had a number of different tuners as I love radio over here in UK. I currently have a NAT01 fed from a Ron Smith Galaxy 14 and I am in a reasonable area for reception - not great but not terrible either. In my current house, I have to say that the NAT01 sounds absolutely brilliant - very nice tones and as dynamic as you would expect from Naim. However, I would also say that the NAT01 is not the best at pulling in a signal that is not at its best. The NAT01 that I currently have has just replaced a Magnum Dynalab FT-101A which is also a good tuner. Like the NAT-01 (I believe), the FT-101A is a totally analogue tuner except for a bit of digital where it converts the tuned frequency value for a digital frequency display. In comparison the FT-101A was actually more capable of receiving poorer signals better and with less hiss. Where I live, my choice between the two tuners would be - better sound or better reception! I have opted for better sound but must stress that the Nat01 really must have a good strong aerial signal. If your Nat01 is not 'sweeping you off your feet' then I suggest that you try a Magnum Dynalab which is better at pulling in stations. It also has some useful other meters - centre tuning indication, strength of any ghost signal and signal strength.
I hope that this is of some help. If you do decide to move your Nat01 on then you should have a lot of people clamouring for it as they are very rare and they are brilliant (given a good signal). However, you may be looking to swop one set of hens teeth for another set as (over here anyway) good deals or second hand opportunities on Magnum Dynalab tuners are very rare.
Good luck in your quest - radio is definitely worth it!

Bazz said

quote:

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PAL is TV terminology, not applicable here. It stands for Phase Alternating Line. A dipole is the signal generating element on a Yagi array, the one the cable is connected to, but can also be used on its own as a whip.

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I'll put this simply. The termination on the back of an 01 (for stuffing the signal from the antenna) is often referred to as a PAL plug. That is, it's not an F connector, which is not referred to as an NTSC plug. Clear? Any droid knows FM broadcast for music does not require colour standards. of course if its presented at the tuna on coax for a PAL plug, there natrually must be a balun somewhere in the system (most typically at the antenna end, otherwise some bananna has cabled the signal to the jack with 300ohm ribbon)... it's all very simple. Do I need to include 300-75 as a balun spec? no, 'thought not.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Rico, the coax connectors on the back of Naim tuners are called Belling Lee.

Simple enough for you pal?

Hi Folks,

To summarize it seems that separate antennae for TV and tuner are preferred, but nobody knows of a dedicated FM antenna manufacturer in Australia?

I rang Hills who told me they didn't manufacture antennae specializing in FM. Any other suggestions?

Can anybody shed light on the fact that if I pull the plug out of the wall my TV reception goes to pieces, whereas there is no change to the tuner reception. I suspect that the TV antenna is not doing anything for the NAT01, and that it may be receiving the signal completely off it's own bat. Note that I get a good strong signal for all stations (except for RTR FM, my favourite station), it's just that the sound quality is not as lively as I had expected. Certainly nowhere near CDS1 quality at this stage. Perhaps I'm using the wrong connections? I must admit I bought them at Dick Smith's only on the basis of what would plug into the back of the NAT 01. Don't know a lot about this tuner caper (can't even listen to the cricket or Radio National-they're on bloody AM).

Cheers,
Jens

[

Aussie Pete, I think you need to switch the smell filter ON, it should cure the horsie odour your experiencing (LOL, can't comment on the footie smells here though)

[/QUOTE]
MJSM Thats the problem you blokes(?) have for wearing skirts

Jens, It sounds like the tuner is receiving bugger all signal. I assume you've tried swapping the tuner and TV. Do you receive a communal feed or is it a stand alone installation? If the former the signal is almost certainly amplified, which is a killer for Naim tuners. Are the tuner and TV plugged into a dual wall socket or attached to fly leads from a splitter? If you can, take the wall plate off/splitter apart and check for short circuits. Make sure there are no loose strands of earth braid touching the conductor, even one tiny, almost invisible wire will do the damage.

I bought my Hills about three years ago and it's definitely a dedicated FM antenna. They must have stopped making them. I have a contact in the biz, so I'll do some checking for you tomorrow and post any info.

Surely you guys can rustle up an true-blue antenna specialist? Or have they all gone bust after chain-store herd mentaility saw the rise of the electronic dick?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Hi Bazz,

Thanks for your input. I have a stand alone antenna with one wall socket. I have an extension antenna cable running to the HiFi and video where it is split into 2 using one of those solid metal splitters you can get from Dick Smiths. I haven't tried taking the video off to see if it improves the reception, nor have I tried eliminating the splitter by plugging the cable directly into the NAT01 and by-passing the video. Might give that a go tonight.

I'll be interested in your comments after you've checked with your friend. It seems a shame to have a NAT01 and not give it the best shot with a suitable antenna.

Cheers, Jens

you will probably need a separate antenna for FM radio reception, as the radio signals will probably be on different frequencies to the TV stations. using the TV antenna will only be an approximation at best, degradation is more likely)

and an antenna (design) will usually be specific for a location as a transmitters frequencies will be different between locations to overcome interference from distant transmitters.

also, FM signals are directional - an antenna needs to point to the correct transmitter. It may pay to check, because in NZ, there may be more than one transmitter for a location, and we sometimes need more than one antenna (one for each transmitter as channel XYZ may only transmit from hill A and channel KAOS may only transmit from hill D)

Jens, Hills still make a 3 element FM antenna, the one I have. The model No. is Y3, cost about $60. Don't know if they are available in WA but you can definitely get them here. Not aware of any others unfortunately.

Should work well in Perth metro area if you can find one, much better than any TV antenna. Mine produces good results.

another thing to note is antenna orientation.

I remember that most FM music antennae? should be vertical (as most car whips are oriented that way) whereas FM TV signals may be horizontal or vertical (that is the case in NZ, I presume it is the same in Aus).

Bazz,

Thanks for checking that out for me-I'll give them another call today and quote the number you gave me. I think they operate through a call centre, so the info I got from them last time may have been dodgy. I think I need one because I pulled out the cable from the splitter this morning, leaving only about 30cm of coax cable sticking out the back of the NAT01. Guess what-didn't change the reception one bit.

Cheers, Jens