She's got a point...
Posted by: Kevin-W on 14 August 2009
Well I think she has:
Go hereDiscuss.
Posted on: 14 August 2009 by JWM
Who is the author? Qualifications to pontificate? Or just another of the chattering classes chattering ... in 'The Independent' ... "The paper people buy when they get to the newsagent and the Times and Guardian have run out..." (as today's 'The Now Show' on BBC R4 so aptly put it).
For me the telling comment is: "To my mind they are second only to The Doors as the most overrated band in pop history."
I think the author is confusing her(?) personal taste with wider value.
The 80s were pretty poor musically. Towards the end of the decade along came a refreshing new sound to break the awful musical stalemate, The Stone Roses, who "took Sixties psychedelia and re-invented it for the acid house generation, to monumental acclaim."
I have always felt that the hallmark 'baggy' vibe is a development of the back beat of a song by this author's other hated huge band, The Doors, 'Peace Frog'.
That The Stone Roses' debut LP was voted the best British album of all time by NME writers perhaps says more about the NME writers than anything. It's a bit like any media poll, which always reflects the view of the predominating group.
Perhaps it isn't the greatest ever debut album, yet in trying to put the boot in, this author effectively describes just how important and seminal it was, being (in the author's own words) "the first band to meld the sounds of indie pop and the burgeoning rave culture, which until then had existed pretty much in opposition."
Thank you, The Stone Roses. You cheered up a pretty cheerless musical decade, and your influence is with us still.
James
Posted on: 14 August 2009 by David Leedham
Her point is a minority opinion. And as for the Doors , they were a seminal band. Give up the day job.
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by BigH47
So what qualifications should we have for music criticism?
Just owning a piece of NAIM enough?
Perhaps a degree in music appreciation as a minimum?
Definitely wrong re: Doors.
She is right about Oasis though.
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Absolute
From reading that, one thing does strike me, she is a rather good writer. The key to being a good writer is (to an extent) to make the reader believe what they are reading. She writes with authority and makes what seems on the surface to be a strong case, yet (and this is quite possibly due to my own opinions on the matter) in my opinion, its all down to the language and the way she expresses herself.
Im sure if you aren't interested in those bands, or in music in general, she makes a very convincing argument, because it sounds intellectual and well thought out, but for me thats as far as it goes. The real core of what she is talking about seems somewhat lacking.
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by droodzilla
Um, I kind of agree with her. I saw them supporting James at a small venue in Manchester before either band were household names. They opened with "I Wanna Be Adored", which blew me away, but the rest of the set bored me silly. In my opinion, they had one or two great songs, and the rest of their material was competent to good.
James were magnificent that night though (as they always were, in their early days).
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Andy1912
I have to say that I agree with the author. Stone Roses, and Ian Brown specifically, are IMO very over rated. There are a couple of good tunes sure, but none of them come anywhere near the best work of the other bands cited. If I had to choose between The Happy Mondays and The Stone Roses, I'd go for Step On everytime
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Voltaire
Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be untenable.
I'm sure you could find 'xyz' person who could argue that 'xyz' is overrated. This doesn't make it overrated, nor does it make underrated, it just means that 'xyz' person (and possibly others) don't rate it as highly as others or at all. This is surely the nature of all things otherwise we would all own the same album(s)?
EG...
quote:
Britain's Got Talent star Susan Boyle is "so overrated", according to a message Lily Allen has posted on her Twitter page.
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Whizzkid
quote:
Originally posted by JWM:
'The Independent' ... "The paper people buy when they get to the newsagent and the Times and Guardian have run out..." (as today's 'The Now Show' on BBC R4 so aptly put it).
James
James,
A man with a sense of humour and great taste unlike the author of the piece under discussion.
Dean..
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Noye's Fludde
quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
So what qualifications should we have for music criticism?
Just owning a piece of NAIM enough?
Perhaps a degree in music appreciation as a minimum?
Definitely wrong re: Doors.
She is right about Oasis though.
Good point. Qualifications ? The ability to write.
She's not saying they're no good, she's saying they're overrated.
Noyes
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Kevin-W
quote:
Originally posted by JWM:
Who is the author? Qualifications to pontificate? Or just another of the chattering classes chattering ... in 'The Independent' ... "The paper people buy when they get to the newsagent and the Times and Guardian have run out..." (as today's 'The Now Show' on BBC R4 so aptly put it).
For me the telling comment is: "To my mind they are second only to The Doors as the most overrated band in pop history."
I think the author is confusing her(?) personal taste with wider value.
The 80s were pretty poor musically. Towards the end of the decade along came a refreshing new sound to break the awful musical stalemate, The Stone Roses, who "took Sixties psychedelia and re-invented it for the acid house generation, to monumental acclaim."
I have always felt that the hallmark 'baggy' vibe is a development of the back beat of a song by this author's other hated huge band, The Doors, 'Peace Frog'.
That The Stone Roses' debut LP was voted the best British album of all time by NME writers perhaps says more about the NME writers than anything. It's a bit like any media poll, which always reflects the view of the predominating group.
Perhaps it isn't the greatest ever debut album, yet in trying to put the boot in, this author effectively describes just how important and seminal it was, being (in the author's own words) "the first band to meld the sounds of indie pop and the burgeoning rave culture, which until then had existed pretty much in opposition."
Thank you, The Stone Roses. You cheered up a pretty cheerless musical decade, and your influence is with us still.
James
Nobody needs any qualifications to pontificate about music - just look at this forum. And why should they? One of the things that makes music so interesting is the fact that people can sit for hours debating/arguing about the merits (or otherwise) of some particular type of music. It all adds to the fun.
I'm all for a bit of iconoclasm now and again, and the Roses are a bit of a sacred cow. Why not give 'em (or their reputation) a kicking? Good, but rather overrated. The
Indie piece was worth doing, it was an opinion worth expressing. It full of factual inaccuracies, which didn't help her case, but I was rather baffled by
the humourlessness and anger of the responses and the abuse heaped on the author.
I think they should all grow up and get lives. It's only a frickin' record, and not the world's greatest.
It wasn't even the best record of its year - that honour of course belongs to New Order's magisterial
Technique 
;
New York,
Paul's Boutique,
Freedom,
Vini Reilly,
Three Feet High & Rising,
Bleach,
Doolittle were all at least as good, and some of them were much better.
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Kevin-W
quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire:
EG...
quote:
Britain's Got Talent star Susan Boyle is "so overrated", according to a message Lily Allen has posted on her Twitter page.
Lilly Allen is overrated. As is Britain's Got Talent. And Twitter.
Posted on: 15 August 2009 by Kevin-W
quote:
Originally posted by David Leedham:
Her point is a minority opinion. And as for the Doors , they were a seminal band. Give up the day job.
So what if it's a minority opinion? What difference does that make?
The Doors (or more specifically, Morrison) could be very silly... all that leather-trousered shamanism rubbish. If you don't take them too seriously they're a pretty good band. But (a couple of songs apart) seminal? Really?
Posted on: 16 August 2009 by soundsreal
took a poll at a party tonight, the stone roses came out marginal at best. I and 10 others totally agreed with her article. and Oasis received an even worse judgement call. so there you go. We said NME was entitled to their opinion, after all, just a bunch of silly brits!
Posted on: 16 August 2009 by David Leedham
I find such negative articles about artistic merit distasteful and pointless. I admit that because I have opposite views I am unlikely to have enjoyed the article, contrary to Kevin.
Posted on: 16 August 2009 by BigH47
I recorded the Stone Roses live gig off the telly, I watched until about 15 seconds after the "singer" started, and stopped. Tried again later, same result, and then deleted it.
My son who is nearer to the "target" market also thought the music good singer dreadful.
We both like LZ though. (Edit post next post)
Posted on: 16 August 2009 by Lark
Ian Brown IMO is one of this countries great musical talents. Fools Gold at the time was, well I guess you had to be there. Maybe it's an age thing. I really do not get Led Zep
Cheers Karl
