Component rack
Posted by: cyu on 16 September 2003
Hi all
I am skeptical with the whole ideal of audio rack can influence the sound quality. I must admit that I am new to this whole hifi thing and still learning about it. Many people have indicated that a good audio rack should be purchased in order to have good sound. I have been shopping around, but I have learned that many cost as much as a NAIM component. My friends and family think it is unreal and a bit crazy that people are spending that much on some of the racks people own.
I have CD5/112/150 and friends and family think I am insane for spending that much. They believe that I could get just as good sound from buying at a local mass market chain store. I do not believe that as many of you would agree.
My question is- Could anyone can recommend a good cost effective component rack for my NAIM gear.
Thank you
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
why yes it is.I just had a bunch of them come in , and I had to stay at work and play with them, they are cool.... I have Frames, QS/ QSRR and a bunch of others I keep to do ,YES STAND DEMOS....by far the IsoBlue is the bargin of all of them, yes we even have some Mana....
The Frames are not that easy to set up , they change with how tight the bolts are , how much finger grease you put on the B/B and the type of floor you have , on carpet you must use Chips or drill screws into the floor, anything not to let the spike dig into the floor....same with Isoblue if you just set these stands up they sound great but after 50 or 60 min. they sound life less,(as the spikes sink into the sub floor) on the Isoblue we have pennies at the base of the spike to stop it from going into the sub floor...with the frames chips, or big steel screws ....all can be proven with a Demo and a bit of time......
As far as the In-jokes , I'm sorry, but sometimes I have to make a joke out of things on this forum
if you want to add more "life" to your frame do what Robert did and double glass the pre amp and CD player with the Tender feet or extra Naim B/B and cups
Steve... feel the Mana Power... There is only one: Mana Acoustics (laugh). All the hard core boys in Toronto use Mana you know that.
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
The thing with the Frame is this, any Product takes time to get right, A Frame is far far faster to set up then a Mana....and with anything in Audio you learn things as you play , ( in this case set ups ) So in the shop the Frames would soung great, and then not so great ,whick pushes up to find out why,
Not letting the spikes dig into the sub floor.
The Blank Space ....yes I think you need more distance between the gear.
in fact a system the size of the one in the shop sounded the best on three Frames.
Mike your comment about the glass and ped ...
Come on if you had spent any time with a Frame you would know that is not a worrie and why.....
you can tweek a Mana, you can tweek a Frames , I like the Frame , with all tall posts and double glass on the CD player , Pre Amp and Amp
with the spike things
Hope you will be at the Next meeting
Steve
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
quote:
Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
The thing with the Frame is this, any Product takes time to get right, A Frame is far far faster to set up then a Mana....and with anything in Audio you learn things as you play , ( in this case set ups ) So in the shop the Frames would soung great, and then not so great ,which pushes us to find out why,
Not letting the spikes dig into the sub floor.
The Blank Space ....yes I think you need more distance between the gear.
in fact a system the size of the one in the shop sounded the best on three Frames.
Mike your comment about the glass and ped ...
Come on if you had spent any time with a Frame you would know that is not a worrie and why.....
you can tweek a Mana, you can tweek a Frames , I like the Frame , with all tall posts and double glass on the CD player , Pre Amp and Amp
with the spike things
Hope you will be at the Next meeting
Steve
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by andy c
So, there is mention of letting the spikes go into the 'sub floor'. Is this refering to wooden floors?
What about using the fraim on a concrete floor?
Are there any problems with using it on such a floor?
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
Concrete is great, the spikes can not dig in to it.....
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by Dan H
£20 job from Argos, then get 50+ CDs with the money saved!
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
ya, 50 CDs that will sound like crap, good things are not cheap and cheap things are not good ,and 20 pounds is cheap man.
Posted on: 20 September 2003 by Steve Toy
quote:
ya, 50 CDs that will sound like crap, good things are not cheap and cheap things are not good ,and 20 pounds is cheap man.
Indeed. You usually get what you pay for unless you are stupid.
False economies are also stupid.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by andy c
I first had a Target 2 shelf rack, which sounded ok, with my Linn Axis on a Target wall shelf.
With upgrading the electronics I then chaged to Appollo Aria, 'cos I quite liked the idea of the modular upgraging capability. It also sounded cleaner than the Target.
With further upgrading of electronics I then went to Mana, which I purchased on the understaning that If I dodn't like I could return... The improvement between this and the previous was very pronounced.
I'm now at the stage tho where I am running out of shelves, and quite like the idea of going modular again because of the flexibility it gives - this leads me to consider Fraim, but, and its a big but, only if it sounds better than the Mana.
And thats the point. Racks are like cables are like the kit itself - it all has an influence on the end product.
If you like the £20 rack then fine, but I would bet your equipment is not being allowed to perform at its full potential...
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Dan H
hi fi fo fumquote:
ya, 50 CDs that will sound like crap, good things are not cheap and cheap things are not good ,and 20 pounds is cheap man.
Come come sir, you exaggerate! Even I, wallowing in the fetid gutter of Linn/Croft/Arcam amplification, refuse to believe that a Naim system will 'sound like crap' unless kept off the shag pile by one of four (or so) specific structures.
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Dan H
andy c
OK, yes, I can relate to what you say much more readily! I agree that the rack makes a difference, like cables, but for me it is one of those marginal things that doesn't radically transform my enjoyment of the music. I can't say I especially 'like' my Argos jobbie, but it works well enough. Given how my system sounds right now, I would rather take the CDs and save myself the torment of trying to make it sound 5% better.
A question: a rack's effectiveness comes down to issues of vibration etc., is that right? In which case, if one generally listens to music quite quietly, will rack differences be less noticeable? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by andy c
Hi Dan,
I do see what you mean. I had a major issue with a suspended wooden floor at my old address, and the rack resolved this quite dramatically, so in my particular case it was worth the outlay.
I have a concrete floor at my new place and while it is a bugger for cable runs it inproved the sound of my system no-end (expensive upgrade tho lol).
Re your having the sound quieter - that may have a lot to do with feedback to the kit etc so it may have an effect.
A suggestion - have you tried any oak cone feet under your kit? U know, those things that you put three under each piece of equipment. Thats a small investment to try, and you will never know until you do...
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Dan H
Andy,
No, I've not tried oak cones, but good idea, think I might give them a go. (So long as I don't have to depart too far from my penny-pinching principles!)
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Rasher
Andy - I went from an Apollo Aria (which I liked & still rate) to an Audiotech rack. I agree that the Apollo sounded clean & sparkling in comparison to the new jobbie (Glass to MDF shelves), but surely at the heavy end at Mana & Fraim, the differences must be very slight. Can it be worth the considerable expense to change?
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
it's funny reading all the post about your audio racks ,it sounds like most of you have never done an A/B from one stand to the Next, well even as being a dealer I have ,infact I,ve done your crapy Ikea ones and almost every thing else I can get my hands on ,why would I do this , the answer is simple it's my job and if the systems we sell sound better then the next shop we tend to get the sale,
Am I trying to get people to spend more money ? well yes I am, do they have too, no they don't...but I tell them the importance of a stand and show them the difference...and if more audio shops did this and you guys took the time to hear a demo then most of your systems would sound better
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Steve Toy
quote:
For someone who "uses his ears" you are very quick to judge by price and appearance. How do you know what this rack sounds like?
I've a pretty good idea by just looking at it. It isn't designed to sound good; it is designed not to fall over.
I bought the QS Ref because it made a big sonic/musical improvement for 730 quid. Compare that price to, say, the Fraim, an XPS2, two pairs of Chord Signature interconnects or even just a Hi-cap. Moving the CDX onto this rack made a big improvement to my enjoyment of music in the same way that purchasing a new box or piece of wire could have done, but for more money.
BTW, it wobbles but still doesn't fall over.
A 20 quid rack hasn't any more chance of sounding better than a 700 quid rack, than a 20 quid portable CD player has of sounding better than a CD5, never mind a CDX(2) or CDS2/3. Aren't all CD players meant to sound the same?
I think you are a troll because you admit to
refusing to hear any difference, but only regarding racks and/or i/cs.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Mike Sae
Andrew, if the customer's happy, hififofum's happy.
I bet hififofum would happily sell you the CDS3 and possibly throw in the coffee table for free
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Steve Toy
quote:
Isn't the accepted wisdom that the CDX suspension is enough and other isolation mechanisms are counterproductive?
The CDX has *no* suspension and as such tends to read what it sits on, unlike the CD5, CDX2 and CDS2/3.
I did do an A/B test with a CD5 and the difference the rack made was still significant.
I suggest you perform a hands-on A/B test of racks yourself and then any comments you may care to make will then have some credibilty.
I wager that any "multiple blind" or other "scientific"/ summative style test will then be irrelevant, even to you!
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
quote:
Originally posted by AndrewThomas:
quote:
Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
it's funny reading all the post about your audio racks ,it sounds like most of you have never done an A/B from one stand to the Next, well even as being a dealer I have ,infact I,ve done your crapy Ikea ones and almost every thing else I can get my hands on ,why would I do this , the answer is simple it's my job and if the systems we sell sound better then the next shop we tend to get the sale,
Am I trying to get people to spend more money ? well yes I am, do they have too, no they don't...but I tell them the importance of a stand and show them the difference...and if more audio shops did this and you guys took the time to hear a demo then most of your systems would sound better
Let's suppose I come into your shop and I demo the CDS3. You tell me the importance of stands and then "demo" the difference between the coffee table and the fraim - which we'll assume maximizes the difference in quality (presumably in favour of the fraim).
I then say "both 'racks' sound the same." Do you then suggest that a CDS3 is perhaps not the player for me and take me to the cheap end of the store?
I can tell you have not heard any of your gear on any of the stands,The stand lets the piece of gear do its' job better , you are one of the many people I love to do a demo for, .....your system will never sound as good as it can till you open your ears....you don't have to buy a Frame , a QS Q4/ Iso Blue /are all good stands that do a great job..I would say you should go and give it a chance....It just might be your biggest bang for the buck.
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
and Andrew , there is no "Cheap end to the store"...we start with Arcam, Rega ,Creek, Cyrus, Naim....
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Mike Sae
so cyrus is above creek? ohhhh...
btw the bullet plugs on RB300 work beautifully
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by hi fi fo fum
the order was at random.....it is late here Mike....got one more trick for you to do ...I'll e-mail it to you
Steve
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Mike Sae
Well it makes sense, Arcam at the bottom (sorry John) and Naim at the top; I've never heard Cyrus- perhaps they're better than Creek, eh?
Posted on: 21 September 2003 by Rich Jerskey
Interesting Andrew, maybe your room and component/speaker placement has optimal acoustics thus minimizing the effect of most stands. Point well taken about the apparent snob appeal attitude of (more) price = right.
RJ
Posted on: 22 September 2003 by andy c
Rasher,
I did do a side by side test, as i did have to keep the Aria for my AV stuff and put the Naim/Linn gear on the Mana.
I did try it the other way round, but the diffrance the mana gave I felt justified the cost. When I moved house the AV stuff went ironically on a big heavy Ikea TV support, all the kit going on oak cone feet (made for me by a mate for next to no cost).
Must confess the biggest differance was with the Axis turntable. On the Mana it was as if it gave the turntable extra zest etc IMO.
I certainly won't sped 2k on a Fraim unless it sounds better than the Mana to my ears. I'd just buy another Mana rack with more shelves and sell the one I have second hand!
regards,
andy c!
