Drum sound on 1960s recordings

Dear Graham,

Apart from drum machine tracks, I am sure what you noticing is the tendency, with more technical gizmos at hand, for recordings to be ever more highly produced with time. It applies in all genres, and is to be deplored. The classic period of recordings in my view started in 1926, and largely ended in the 1960s with the advent of multi-tracking with multi-microphones and boiling it all down to false stereo (often with un-natural pin-point precision of placing and false depth of front to back perspective), which inevitably saps the viceral aspects of real ensemble playing and the sense of an organic wholeness to any music making.

In my view the advent of stereo was the begining of the end of recording, which was totally dedicated to musical rather than sonic considerations. Ironic that the sonic considerations are actually getting worse, as you note, in more modern records, as well as the musical aspect being lower in the priorities.

Producers might well be considered the Estate Agents of the musical recording world, not unfairly in my view!

Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

I don't believe it is universal - perhaps on the big labels what you say is true but many smaller labels do an excellent job (Telarc, for me, is a prime example, Chandos arguably another). Indeed, Telarc's recent recordings of Runnicles have impressed me as they capture well (and not in the over produced way you might imagine) his excellent sense of instrumental placement - I don't mean so much in a left-right 'hyper-stereo' sort of way, more in terms of how he balances his orchestra.

DG is still capable of making good recordings (as the Mackerras Clemenza shows - though another Mozart opera from this year, Abbado's Magic Flute, shows they are also capable of producing some things whose producers probably shouldn't work again).


regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

The problem is not universal, but still all too prevelant. I have the Pinnock recording of Messiah, for example, which is marvelous on every level, and a model of how a recording should be as well, but it is fascinating to me to realise how much finer were Boult's Brahms recordings for Pye in 1954 [in mono] than any of the Brahms he re-recorded for HMV in the early seventies [in stereo, of course], both artistically and technically. So much that has not, has been claimed to have improved. I know that the old Pye recordings were done with one microphone, and it shows, both in natural sonorities, both particularly in the accuracy of relayed musical balances. Boult understood balance rather well, and so his Pye engineer must indeed have been on his mettle with such an unsophisticated recording set to get such results, and such critical ears listening through the takes!

A friend of mine played bass in the LPO on these recordings from the fifties! Including one 'domino' he made in the Tragic Overture. One day I will show this moment to you. Bert and I laughed out loud that it was not considered serious enough to retake the thing - when he pointed out the blunder!

ATB from Fredrik

Come on, chaps, I'm trying to start a thread on Cream and Hendrix and you boys have moved onto classical!!!!!!

Still, Tales Of Brave Ulysses is sounding pretty fab!

Incidentally, did any drummer ever make more noise than Ginger Baker? Quite an extraordinary racket!

Graham

Graham! [Sorry Smiley]!

I was merely pointing out that the problem is not confined to Rock and Pop, and that little aside took wing.

The best Pop recording I have is Buddy, "From The Masters." An MCA release, which is easily finer than any other Pop release I know of as a sonority! Even there, there is one glaring example of a mono recording from more than one m/phone, where the slider is audibly engaged to shake the balance about, and that is about in 1956 or '57!

How clever [not] are the engineers who forever leave their mark on others' artistry!

ATB from Fredrik

Fred

No offence taken, my friend! But were you ever into Cream or the Experience?

Oh, f**k! 'White Room' has just kicked off (again) and Ginger, Eric and Jack are making a helluva din!

Gragam

Graham - in the late 60's, producers were not so hung up on "fixing" tracks after the fact, so not everything was isolated the way it later became. Very often, drums were mixed down to stereo as it was recorded and that was basically appeared in the final mix.

Later in the 70's, producers developed a fetish about "being able to go back and fix..." and everything had to be totally isolated. Every part of the drumkit was recorded on a separate track, each track gated, compressed and as separate as possible from each other, so one could totally remove the snare drum and have someone else come in later and overdub a new one for whatever reason.

This was an engineer's paradise and racked up thousands of extra hours in the studio - fixing up what didn't need to be fixed, just because one could. It also lead to the drumkit not sounding like the single instrument it is - full of sympathetic resonances and such, and made it sound like a drum machine, which indeed became the ultimate saviour in the 80's.

It's no wonder you prefer the musicality of the earlier stuff. A great performance is not measured by the absence of mistakes. There was true beginning-to-end coherence to the performances.

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Fred

No offence taken, my friend! But were you ever into Cream or the Experience?

[...].

Graham

Dear Graham,

We have such different views and only a partial crossing over of our favourite music and performance styles, but the Rock and pop of the 60s, 70s, and 80s was the background to my young and younger days!

I reckon you should visit me one day! I am quite serious! Bring Cream, especially! I loved the Kinks, The Scaffold, the later Beatles, The Beech Boys, Floyd, even Status Quo, not because I chose them as favourites, but I know them, inconsequentially, as part of growing up! They were the aural bacjground. My own favourites were solitary, and exquisite pleasures sought out, almost without help from the begining. Even my eventual playing was squeezed in against the odds, and aginst a back-cloth of disapproval!

So if you fancied a visit to Worcester, you will find my email in an obvious place. I think Tam will visit one day as well, and again I hope that the encounter involves more of your choices of music than mine.

Of course it will come to some of my favourite music eventually, later as I beat you down to the classical ideal - only kidding of course. One embargo though: No Wagner or Mahler! Any Rock or Pop, is just fine! Well maybe not Rap or the Sex Pistols!

ATB from Fredrik

keith moon wont get fooled again by the hoo !!!!

Fredrik

That's a deal!

Graham

I agree Graham and Fredrik, 60s to 70s was a great era of recording. The Beatles were certainly at the forefront of mastering the technology as they didn't go on the road. Other bands and engineers followed suit making it an ever more complicated process. I too like the live feel of the 60s recordings; echos, stage sounds, natural rhythums and slight mistakes. Once the synths came in, along with multitracking perfection, it just lost something for me. I've had the White Album and Abbey Road on the TT for a couple weeks now, buy can those guys rock. First vinyl I bought when I was loaned a Planar 3 from a friend was Electric Ladyland. Just love Hendrix's innovative style. I'd like to get some early Clapton too. I'm so glad I got to hear that era as it unfolded on the radio. And it just all seems to sound so wonderful on vinyl.

I have a friend I meet at a bar from a few years back that turns out was a sound engineer back in the late 60s and early 70s. He worked with some of the best. Said people liked him because he went to the concerts and tried to get the sound and energy of their live shows. Then his partner died unexpectedly and family swooped in to take over and kicked him out as no papers were drawn up and he lost the business. So sad. He's been a great source of info about early recording. Told me Paul Simon found a great really deep bass sound on Mother and Child Reunion and I found that on vinyl and boy was he right. Rich, deep and oh so wonderful.

cheers

glenn

I was recently listening to a Hendrix anthology, and I was taken with how much the bass and guitar made the snares and the drum heads buzz. You won't hear that if the musicians record their tracks individually, and it probably helps to have the band jammed into a small studio.

Early Clapton--don't miss "Blues Breakers".

yeah I'm waiting for Blues Breakers to appear magically in a bin tho I bet I'll have to find it at a price in some collector's stash.

A friend has old JBL studio speakers and one is under his grand piano and says the strings sing at certain times on recordings. I'm sure big amps would react with other kit in a live studio recording or on stage. I've heard that a good recording is partly by voodoo placing mikes around in different spots till the best effect is finally acheived.

Glenn

Interesting topic. Live drum sound died with multitracking I think. Instruments were no longer allowed to influence each other to be able to change the mix later on. I'm not a Hendrix fan, but some live Punk stuff from the late seventies also has this nice 'ring' from the guitar amp on the snaredrum.

Willem

I, too, find myself drawn to the recordings of the 60's and 70's for that "clatter" of drums and instruments. Being a drummer I am keenly aware of well recorded, yet not sterile sounding drum kits. I don't really know much about the recording of the drums, or that technical mumbo-jumbo (I am a DRUMMER, right? Think Spinal Tap...) I just have some comments about what I hear that I like.

I think Ginger Baker really was the leader of Cream. He held together (with all due respect)a smacked out Clapton and petulant Bruce. I heard an interview with him about how he couldn't get along with Jack, cause Jack would stomp on any off common-time or creative ideas he would try throw in. That 5/4 beginning to White Room was Ginger's idea that quickly gets flattened by a more routine go of the rest of the song. Ginger's solo stuff is magic, i.e. Stratovarious, Air Force and the stuff with Fela.

Then again how about Jim Capaldi - he could really make a clatter and was recorded like he never rehearsed, just kind of fell into the kit (and he could sing damn well too.) To my ears Traffic is one of the most immediate sounding and talented group of the 60/70's. All multi-instrumental virtuosos I do believe.

I have some thoughts about "live(ly)" sounding drums recorded in the last couple decades - not neccessarily masterful or studied, just lively sounding with a bit of clatter.

How about the White Stripes? Also recently, there is a great band called Elope and another called Dungen that both have great drums with a very shambolic, natural sound. From the 80's Killing Joke also had some crazy tribal pounding, as well as Siousxie and The Banshees. These are just a few that I can think of that sound truly "clattery" to me.

great topic and excellent posts!

quote:

It also lead to the drumkit not sounding like the single instrument it is - full of sympathetic resonances and such, and made it sound like a drum machine, which indeed became the ultimate saviour in the 80's.

i couldn't agree more. honest, immediate, and communicative drumming comes from a drummer playing a "kit" or "trap set". multitracking ad nauseum wrecks this. satiating our primordial urges and stimulating the groove gland (it's located in the groin if you didn't know) becomes much more difficult as well.

i agree with what posters have said about Baker and Capaldi. i would also like to add Doug Clifford of Creedance Clearwater and Stewart Copland of the Police as two of the most honest and immediate drummers i've heard.

PACE

Fishki13 -

Excellent call on Doug Clifford!!! How could I forget the drummer behind some of the simplest, most honest, most rocking songs in history. He is definitely a man born in the pocket!!!

Although I love Copeland as a technically amazing and spontaeneous drummer, I dont see him quite the same way. I feel like he tried to fit too many ideas into each phrase. He syncopated while hitting a rock steady while swinging. I just get overwhelmed by him - he is NEVER in the pocket. But no disrespect for your choice at all.

Hey what about Charlie Watts. I used to laugh at him when I was growing up because I was all about the showy technique, but he had a really honest sound and such a swing that pushed to the farthest fringe of the beat without falling off - so far behind that it really was the signature that gave the stones their homegrown, boozy/bluesy edge that they have so capitalized on.

And of course the mighty Bonzo - who is my all time favorite. He was just the right combo of power, swing, funk, blues, finesse, speed and downright confidence and honesty. The way they recorded, especially the stuff at Headly Grange for Zep IV and other tracks, was really immmediate and one-take honesty.

Here's something I found on the recording technique used for the John Bonham sound.

"With three mics, the choices grow again. You could use the third microphone beside the kit This is more or less the technique used to record one of the classic drum sounds of the rock era – Glyn Johns used three mics to record Led Zeppelin drummer John Bonham. One mic was placed about 4 feet in front of the kit aiming at the kick drum, one was behind the drum set aiming more or less over his shoulder towards the kit, and the third was on the floor tom side of the set, aimed toward the snare drum. (Of course, putting the drums in a castle hall doesn’t hurt…)"

quote:

i would also like to add Doug Clifford of Creedance Clearwater and Stewart Copland of the Police as two of the most honest and immediate drummers i've heard.

PACE

As long as Doug stuck to the drums and didn't try to write songs then he was fine. Though I'd venture to say any good drummer would sound superb in a band fronted by John Fogerty.

Excellent nomination, PACE, I saw Doug play many times and as part of CCR he was a member of the most entertaining rock band I've ever seen. (Unless you call HMHB a rock band, which I don't).

All the best, Rotf

After due consideration, my favourite drummer is John Hiseman, although Dave Mattacks was rather good in a conventional way. True Valentyne Suite was 70s rather than 60s, but it has that superb drum sound that seems to missing on many modern recordings.

I loathe drum machines BTW.

The fact that things haven't progressed in a meaningful way since about 1970 is illustrated by the fact that rthe most-used drum sound in modern music is a sample: the funky drum break from a 1969 single (B-side) by the Winstons called "Amen Brother". This five-second, two-bar sample, cut-up and manipulated, but often just looped, drives literally hundreds of drum'n'bass, house, techno, rap and electronica tracks. Its popularity with producers is partly the great groove, and also the great sound: a crisp attack on the snare drum, nice ringing cymbals, and a lovely ambience. It was probably recorded with a minimum of mics, in a great-sounding room.

graham55, you do have the Ginger Baker Trio album with Bill Frisell and Charlie Haden (Going Back Home), right? Immaculate.

quote:

Originally posted by John M:
Fishki13 -

[Stewart Copeland] is NEVER in the pocket ...

This simply isn't true; there are many examples of Copeland in the pocket ... Every Breath You Take being just one. It's true that on occasion, he bit off a bit more than he could chew (still exciting, though), but to say that he was "NEVER in the pocket" is just plain inaccurate.

I agree with you on Charlie Watts, though, and I'd add Ringo in the same bag, and innovative to boot ... that incredible groove on Tomorrow Never Knows still sounds ahead of its time, despite having been nicked by tons of younger players.

Fred

quote:

I'd add Ringo in the same bag, and innovative to boot ... that incredible groove on Tomorrow Never Knows still sounds ahead of its time, despite having been nicked by tons of younger players.

The first electronica recording, with the first drum loop! Or at least he played it like one, which is amazing enough. And how about those tumbling fills in "A Day in the Life"? That changed rock ballad drumming forever.

quote:

Originally posted by bhazen:

quote:

I'd add Ringo in the same bag, and innovative to boot ... that incredible groove on Tomorrow Never Knows still sounds ahead of its time, despite having been nicked by tons of younger players.

the first drum loop! Or at least he played it like one, which is amazing enough.

Oh, he played it ... human loop.

Fred

..Ok going slightly o.t. and it did come out later than the classic Hendrix / Cream period ..and will never make any list of great albums that appear periodically in various magazines ....

..But Cozy Powell's drumming on "Rainbow Rising" is simply awesome - even though it utilised relatively modern recording techniques (1976)it sounds wonderful ...Powell simply batters the bejesus out of his kit throughout (most tracks were apparently recorded in one take) Surely even John Bonham must have swallowed hard on hearing "A Light In The Black"
Put aside any preconceptions of what "Metal" may conjure up and have a listen to a crackin' rock album.

Art Blakey? Don't think it is necessary to limit this to the rock canon, both Blakey and Elvin Jones were monsters on the skins and active in the '60s