Inspired by Fredrik - Beethoven Symphonies
Posted by: kevj on 10 April 2006
After reading Fredrik’s thread “A Record Library” it occurred to me that some of the recordings which Fredrik greatly admires – Furtwangler & Klemperer from the 50s and 60s were grossly underrepresented in my record collection. In fact, my only recordings of the Beethoven symphonies were the Karajan 70s set and the new Rattle, neither of which would be anywhere near Fredrik’s list of great performances.
The Karajan set is the first one I owned, bought as a poor young student in a mid-price release. I bought the Rattle because I love his Mahler, but Beethoven is, of course, different. I initially hated it. I’m still not sure about it, but I’ve been listening to it again, trying to keep an open mind and I’m getting to like it better now. I’m learning something from listening to the music presented by a different voice, even when I don’t always understand exactly what the voice is trying to say. With this in mind, I thought I’d try to expand my knowledge of the Beethoven symphonies somewhat.
Amazon, as ever, is my friend. I thought that I’d try to increase my range by getting what might be called ‘representative’ samples of what I’m guessing will be very different performances to add to the ones which I already have.
My fist choice was a boxed set of Klemperer with the Philharmonia, which seems to represent one of the mainstays of Fredrik’s set. This boxed set, which costs less than £20, has all of the symphonies, a number of other orchestral works, and all the piano concerti (with Barenboim as soloist). A real bargain I reckon! The other attraction for me is that the Philharmonia at the time would most likely have had Alan Civil as Principal Horn. Fredrik and I have both waxed lyrical about the recording Civil made of the Mozart concerti at this time, but suffice it to say that Civil is my hero as a horn player and to have a set of Beethoven symphonies with the great man playing was probably justification enough for buying the set.
My second choice was to try one of the period instrument recordings, so I bought Norrington’s. This was largely on the grounds of price (about £12), but I thought that this would be as good a place as any to sample the period approach. So now I have:
1. A set from what Fredrik would consider the great period of recordings (Klemperer/Philharmonia)
2. What, at the time I bought it, was generally considered to be Karajan’s finest set (1970s)
3. A period instrument recording (Norrington)
4. A modern digital recording (Rattle)
I thought I might have a listen to these and post some opinions on these sets as I get round to listening to them. I’m no Fredrik, Todd, pe-zulu or Tam, but I will try my best to give a flavour of what I think about the different styles and what they say to me. This may end up being a thread where I talk only to myself, but I’d really welcome input from everyone, even if it’s only to tell me what a pretentious fool I’m being……
Have I left a glaring gap in my range here? I’m not pretending for a minute that I have even a fraction of the experience of some of the other contributors to the forum so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I thought that, rather than go through the symphonies in order, I’d start with the Eroica. I love this symphony. Listening will start tonight – thoughts later this week…….
Kevin
Posted on: 10 April 2006 by Tam
Kevin,
On my to-do list of future posts is a comprehensive roundup/review of my Beethoven cycles (all twelve of them), however, it will come after my Mahler (and I've only done about two cycles worth so far.....).
However, I will post some of my thoughts here. I too came to Rattle with I hopes. Like you have have loved his Mahler (and many of his other recordings, both before and since), and also because of the Penguin Guide's rave review, but I was deeply let down, I actually found the set rather dull, my concentration could easily wander and it didn't keep pulling me as the best recordings do. After listening through twice I ditched it. That said, I would note that I have kept other cycles that have disappointed me since, I was just quite cross as it has come so well recommended and been such a let down.
I love the Furtwangler cycle (especially the Bayreuth 9th) however, the EMI is a little uneven and one is probably better off putting together a separate cycle. One of the reasons that more of the Furtwangler recordings didn't make it into my library post was that I didn't feel a huge number fell into the category of 'must keep in my collection'. That said, I wouldn't want to be without them either (however, I do feel he can sometimes be slightly on the stodgy side, though his other qualities, such as the sheer emotional drive, more than make up).
As I have said many, many times, Mackerras and the RLPO takes quite some beating and is by far the best of the modern cycles. I keep listening to it and every time it sounds totally new and fresh. What's more at just £15 it's an absurd bargain.
regards, Tam
p.s. Loved the Civil/Klemperer concertos, will post my thoughts at some point.
Posted on: 10 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Kevin,
I will read your follow up with fascination and enjoyment. I have on occasion bought recordings of well loved music from artists I doubted I would necessarily enjoy performing. For example Pinnock in the Brandenbergs, which came as a refreshing shock after Menuhin and the Bath Festival Orchestra (Civil as one of the Soloists!), and that is what started me off on the HIP thing. I have found HIP style performances I prefer to Pinnock's set, but I don't think it is reasonable to limit the scope of choice entirely to known and trusted artists!
What I have heard of Norrington did not really convince me I needed to investigate much more, but perhaps there is still something in it. You may convince me yet!
All the best from Fredrik
PS: I think the Klemperer set is quite uneven, so it will be interesting to read your reactions to thst as well. Fredrik
Posted on: 10 April 2006 by kevj
Tam,
I am deeply looking forward to your Mahler review - keep working......
I'll keep my eye out for the Mackerras though. There are some real bargains to be had out there....
As for Furtwangler, I bought his Brahms cycle on the same order...I may post something about that on your Brahms thread when it comes (only the Beethovens came in the post this morning).
I'm really glad you liked the Civil Mozarts - they are rather special.
Kevin
Posted on: 10 April 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
What I have heard of Norrington did not really convince me I needed to investigate much more, but perhaps there is still something in it. You may convince me yet!
Norrington rubs me up the wrong way. I have encountered him twice. The first time was in a National Youth Orchestra concert where he did Mahler 1. The interpretation wasn't too bad, the problem was he kept turning round and grinning to the audience (sorry if I have given this story before), seeming to say, look what a brilliant sound I have from them. He did it very prominently during the bass solo and I felt he was really trying (if only subconsciously) to take away attention from the young man playing the part (and doing it rather well). He was lucky I was a good way from him because I felt the very strong urge to hit him (or at least, berate him verbally) and I'm not a violent person.
I did partially put this down as a one-off. Then the BBC had him pick the symphonies for the Beethoven experience. Not only did he pick an large number of his own (conversely, I once had the chance to tell Mackerras how wonderful I thought his set was, i.e. that I preferred it to the other 11 that I owned and he seemed very surprised and was terribly modest). Anyway, when Norrington introduced the Eroica (he picked Zinman) he went on at great length about how the very most important thing of all was that the conductor must exactly follow Beethoven's metronome markings. Personally, I think the most important thing is an engaging performance, and whether that is got be strict adherence to the markings or not is down to the conductor. But the way he said it just put me right off him. If you do get the Mackerras set, there are some wonderful notes (written by the man himself) on the extent to which Beethoven's tempi should be followed, the gist being that they are important, but just one factor to take into account.
regards, Tam
p.s. Will be interested to hear your Furtwangler/Brahms thoughts when they arrive. I notice that one of my Furtwangler box sets includes and Brahms 2 and Haydn variations so I must dig it out and have a listen.
Posted on: 11 April 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
For example Pinnock in the Brandenbergs, which came as a refreshing shock after Menuhin and the Bath Festival Orchestra (Civil as one of the Soloists!)
Ups, the horn players in Menuhins Brandenburg concerto nr.one are Barry Tuckwell and James Quaife.
If you want to listen to Alan Civil in this concerto, you must turn to
Klemperer with the Philharmonia EMI 1962
or
Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonics DG 1965 (not the later recording from 1980).
My first "period" acquisition of the Symphonies of Beethoven was Norringtons cycle. First I enjoyed the expertly executed period sounds of course, but when it is about interpretation, I think that Norrington is generally a self-effacing type, boardering at the rightout bland, - even his occupation with metronome markings is a self-effacing trait. I wish his intrepation had harboured more life, more expression, but it hasn´t much more to offer than the period sounds. So I am of course interested to hear Kevins opinion.
The problem with the Klemperer cycle is IMO, that all the symphonies are played in the same teutonic, monumental style. No.s one and two and to some degree no.s four, six and eight suffer somewhat, they ought to be more light in mood. Well, they gain in weight, but where is the "Wienerische" charm? On the other hand the teutonic style suits the other symphonies better, as they are indeed monumental in style from Beethovens hand.
Similarily no serious pianist will play Beethovens early pianosonatas in the same style as the Hammerclavier sonata or opus 111. Gilels does, but his interpretations of the early sonatas are for that reason something of a parallel to Klemperers heavy-weight symphonies.
There is a number of notable interpretators of Beethovens symphonies I haven´t heard (Szell, Zinman, Scherchen to name the most important) but of the many I know, I think Bruno Walther´s recording with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra approaches my ideal most of all. It contains the charm, poetry and drama in a convincing balance.
Posted on: 11 April 2006 by Tam
Dear pe-zulu,
I'm not sure I'd want to use the term self-effacting for Norrington. I think one of the problems with his interpretations is that he doesn't really have anything much to bring (hence why he so rigidly sticks to the metronome markings). In other words, I think the extent to which he stays in the background is down to him not being able to do much else. I would contrast this with a genuinely self-effacing conductor such as Mackerras who, while, paying a lot of attention to the composer's wishes, knows when to ignore them and do his own thing.
As far as period instruments go, I'm currently spinning Gardiner and the Orchestra Revolutionnarie et Romanantique in number one. It certainly has a different sound to the rest of my sets but, I'm bound to say it only confirms my view that I prefer Beethoven played on modern instruments (it's very enjoyable though).
You mention Szell. I have a great fondness for the conductor and his cycle with the Cleveland Orchestra is very fine indeed (especially numbers 4 and 7).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 11 April 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
Dear pe-zulu,
I'm not sure I'd want to use the term self-effacting for Norrington. I think one of the problems with his interpretations is that he doesn't really have anything much to bring (hence why he so rigidly sticks to the metronome markings). In other words, I think the extent to which he stays in the background is down to him not being able to do much else. I would contrast this with a genuinely self-effacing conductor such as Mackerras who, while, paying a lot of attention to the composer's wishes, knows when to ignore them and do his own thing.
You mention Szell. I have a great fondness for the conductor and his cycle with the Cleveland Orchestra is very fine indeed (especially numbers 4 and 7).
regards, Tam
Dear Tam,
Completely agreed, this was exactly, what I meant, Norrington adheres to the score, as he obviously has noting else to offer. Self-effacing in the sense, that he doesn´t add anything personal to the music at all.
Once the Symphonies of Beethoven were my "daily bread" for many years. I don´t listen to them much more because of other preferences, but I am always open to exceptionally strong performances (e.g the C Kleiber I got from you), and based on what I have heard and read, I consider the acquisition of Szell and Zinman.
Regards,
Posted on: 11 April 2006 by Tam
Dear pe-zulu,
Glad we agree. I think I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that self-effacement isn't always a bad thing.
The Szell are great. Personally I would steer well clear of the Zinman (I have only heard the third but it suffers from exactly the over-literalness we mentioned above). I would urge Mackerras on you too, it's dirt cheap so one can't really go wrong.
As an aside, one of the highlights of this summer's Edinburgh festival is going to be Mackerras playing the cycle (I couldn't have asked for more if I'd written the programme myself - well, okay, I'd like to see Abbado live and Rattle doing some Mahler and, oh wait, we're getting both those too
).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 11 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
For example Pinnock in the Brandenbergs, which came as a refreshing shock after Menuhin and the Bath Festival Orchestra (Civil as one of the Soloists!)
Ups, the horn players in Menuhin's Brandenburg Concerto No.One are Barry Tuckwell and James Quaife... If you want to listen to Alan Civil in this concerto, you must turn to Klemperer with the Philharmonia EMI 1962... etc
Dear pe-zulu,
Ooops indeed! I sold the Menuhin records in 1991, and really did think Civil was in the First Brandennberg. Age is catching up. Sorry for the mistake there.
As for Klemperer in the Beethoven Symphonies, I don't quite care for some of the performances. But not quite the same ones as you! That is fair enough because each of us draw soemthing different from the music.
I actually really think a great deal of the performances of One, Eight, Two, Three, Four, Six, and best of all the Choral. I am not quite convinced by his performances of the Seventh, and in the Fifth I could never deal with the later studio set (though the mono set is very fine), but the performance he gave in the late 60s with the VPO, in concert, is absolutley amazing, even at his by then rather steady tempi. There is a momentum, which is absolutley not related to the speed so much as the build up of energy, which is almost unbearably powerful.
As for the lighter symphonies. I actually think his readings are not heavy at all. Furtwangler is both slower and heavier, though I like these as well. So maybe I simply like Beethoven's Symphonies like that! As a child I was more than passable cross-county runner, and had an unerring ability to pace myself for the whole time, without panic that the leaders were out of sight after a short while. I used to set off with the Metronome Movement [second] of the Eighth Symphony in my head. I knew Klempewrer's reading and it served me well as both a pacer and and anti-dote to the pain of getting a stitch! His tempo is remarkably game here, as elsehere, and sprung to perfection! Perhaps not for everyone, but certainly not to be ignored, for all that.
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 13 April 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,
The Furtwangler Beethoven symphonies you're talking about, are they live or studio? I only ask because until now my reference point was his (almost) cycle with the VPO on EMI and I found them a little stodgy but the 40s live efforts from Berlin I got the other day are something else. I recall reading a comment somewhere to the effect that Furtwangler in the studio was a pale shadow of Furtwangler live (perhaps this is something for that Live vs Studio thread from the other week).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 13 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
I have only the VPO HMV set of One and Four under Furtwangler, and feel that the other studio recordings are not all that interesting! Furtwangler was at his best live, and only in a fairly small number of studio recordings, including the famous Tristan recording and the (almost unknown nowadays) recording of the Pathetic with the BPO in 1938, does he equal his most extra-ordinary degree of musicality in the very many live recordings.
I think anyone who experiences his various studio Beethoven recordings will get a rather shallow view of his genius, let alone perhaps even begin to wonder what all the fuus was about!
Fredrik
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
Personally I would steer well clear of the Zinman (I have only heard the third but it suffers from exactly the over-literalness we mentioned above). I would urge Mackerras on you too, it's dirt cheap so one can't really go wrong.
Dear Tam
You may well be right concerning Zinman. I shall follow your advice and order Mackerras´ set with my next order from Amazon.uk.
Regards,
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
As for the lighter symphonies. I actually think his readings are not heavy at all. Furtwangler is both slower and heavier, though I like these as well.
Dear Fredrik
As I wrote somewhere else, I grew up with Klemperers recordings (concerning 3, 5, and 7 the mono-versions), and I liked them very much. But later I listened to many other interpretations, and as is true of most music, the solution is diversity. No single performance, even if considered congenial, can do full justice to the music. I still respect Klemperers interpretations, which I know almost too well, wery much, but I prefer to listen to different interpretations, which make me look at the works from other angles. And also my taste has changed a bit. I really think, Klemperer is relative heavy (or maybe weighty), and this is not just a question of tempi, but as much a question of phrasing, accentuation, size of orchestra et.c. On the other hand I am not completely convinced by the actual HIP performances of Beethovens symphonies. I think the reason is, that the main interest concerns the period-sound, and not in equal mesure the interpretation. In the later years I have listened a lot to Liszt´s piano arrangements of Beethovens symphonies. They are very well made, and they direct the primary attention to the structure of the music. And they exist in an, admitted small, number of fine recordings.
Regards,
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
Dear Tam
You may well be right concerning Zinman. I shall follow your advice and order Mackerras´ set with my next order from Amazon.uk.
Regards,
Dear pe-zulu,
Hope you enjoy the set. I feel he takes the best elements of HIP but without the obsessive adherence to everything that spoils many modern accounts.
I keep being tempted by Klemperer (since he's in a bargain box with Barenboim doing the concertos, then again, part of me also wants to pick up Colin Davis's Dresden cycle which has just been rereleased, and then there's the Haitink cycle on LSO Live....)
regards, Tam
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Tam
Of course I shall report on Mackerras. But it will last some time, as I use to order things, Amazon.uk haven�t got on stock, and I have to wait for them to get them, and only rarely I receive my orders within a month.
My wish for diversity above certainly doesn�t exclude Klemperer, the Beethoven symphonies of whom, I regard as mandatory for every Beethoven lover. So I can�t but encourage you to acquire the set. As to Barenboim I always liked his Beethoven and his fine sense of poetry and well balanced piano sound, and these recordings are no exception.
Regards,
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by Tam
Dear pe-zulu,
I tend to do the same thing with amazon. I absolutely agree when it comes to diversity (one artist can't possibly tell you everything on a significant work, though perhaps the number of cycles I have might be regarded as excessive). I only know Barenboim's Beethoven from his Sonatas (which I enjoyed, though would not rank in the same league as Kempff or Solomon) and his symphonies, which I rather enjoyed (especially the recent 5th with his West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, though that may have been coloured by having seen them do it live in what was really a very special concert).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
though perhaps the number of cycles I have might be regarded as excessive.
I only know Barenboim's Beethoven from his Sonatas (which I enjoyed, though would not rank in the same league as Kempff or Solomon)
Dear Tam
To me nothing is excessive.I am a multi-recordings collector myself, and for the same reason.
When Kempff is in the first league, even the second league (Barenboim) may be very good.
Regards,
Posted on: 15 April 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Tam and Frederik
Apropos diversity, I found this thought-provoking contribution from a poster in another forum (GMG):
I do believe that most recordings are "acceptable" and I am astonished by the extent to which classical music 'nuts' obsess about what recording is the best. For any piece of music that I like I generally have a recording that I prefer, but when listening to a familiar piece, more often than not I choose to listen to a recording I've never heard before. I do this rather than listen to my favorite recording over and over again because it lends a little bit of the unexpected to the experience, like going to a concert. I've reached the point where the new recording usually does not dislodge my favorite from its pedistal, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying the experience.
Regards,
Posted on: 15 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear pe-zulu,
That is why for truly favourite music I need more than one and in some cases half a dozen favourite records to supplememnt the radio, and concerts! I never keep a poor effort however...
Fredrik
PS:
In fact the only reason I would ever post a favourite performance of a piece of much loved music is not because I could care less what any one actually thinks, but because I know that all too often peoiple find themselves put off a great pieces, because the performance is dull. Thus I disagree with the basic premiss of your quotation, rather profoundly!
Posted on: 15 April 2006 by graham55
pe-zulu
I've often thought that we're absolutely spoilt for choice. Your poster is right, to a degree, but that doesn't mean that any stab at, say, Beethoven's Fifth is the equal of Carlos Kleiber's never-repeatable recording with the VPO. But there are quite a few Beethoven Fifths that are not too far behind CK that are not too shabby,
I always try to ensure that I have at least two recordings of any piece of music that I love, For those that I love most, I tend to have six or seven recordings, at least.
But if you just walk into your local record store and buy the first (only?) disc that comes to hand of Beethoven's Fifth, you can't go too badly wrong.
Graham
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by pe-zulu
Fredrik and Graham,
I don´t say, that I agree completely with the author of my quotation, but I thought his words were worth a consideration.
He probably isn´t concerned with recommendations for others, but rather with what he himself listens to. One of his points is, that only a few of the many available recordings of a work are unlistenable. And course you should not choose what you acquire and listen to completely blinded. But if you choose sensibly you will almost always become rewarded by an alternate performance. I know my favorite recordings so well, that I have an urge to listen to other performances, and for that reason I collect multiple performances like you. And what I consider my favorite performance(s) may very well change. So in the end I think we agree.
Regards
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear pe-zulu,
Of multiple performances I have, none is safe! I dispose mercilessly as you know. I have parted with performances from Klemerer and Futwangler just as freely as other less famous names!
I even parted with things I once thought would never leave, being number one favourite for time, so yes, over time I know my taste in performance has moved on, though more than my taste in repertoire, which moves rather more slowly these days!
Call that getting older, I'd say.
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Fredrik
So have I. I think, there are interpretations you get finished with, and others you don�t.
I only keep recordings, I suppose, I shall want to listen to again.
Kind regards,
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Tam
My multiple performances tend to be fairly safe in my library, even the rather poor ones. That said, I've recently been making a bit more of an effort to clear things out and I got rid of my Perahia Mozart concertos, with which I've never got on (and am also trying to lose my Abbado Brahms and Tintner Brucker).
I think one shouldn't be afraid to clear things out (though I'm remarkably bad at it), however, I think you know deep down when you've got a disc that you're unlikely to listen to again.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 19 April 2006 by pe-zulu
BTW in some instances I have got second thoughts, and regretted the disposing of (most often giving away) certain things, mainly vinyl, f.ex. Menuhins Brandenburgs, Rieflings WTC and - keep your hat - some LPs from Kempff�s stereo Beethoven cycle (about the half of it). Fortunately - but I couldn�t foresee this at that time, most of the things in question has become available in CD rereleases. But you always run a risk, when you clear things out, your taste may change. My disposing of the Kempff LPs, was due to the fact, that I many years ago - being younger and more labile - thought I had finished with romantic music, and I wanted to concentrate on music from before 1750. But 10 years ago I inherited from my mother Backhaus� outstanding Beethoven integral (a mixture of his mono and stereo integrals on LP), and this was the starting point for my renewed interest in Beethoven. One day I probably have to reacquire the Klemperer symphonies and the violin-piano sonatas with Grumiaux / Haskil.
