Inspired by Fredrik - Beethoven Symphonies

The things I most regret parting with are Bruno Walter's Beethoven and Brahms sets on American Columbia. I gave to a friend to start tem off1 I really wish I had suggested them as a apurchase, but then he would never have got started, I suppose.

One day they will return, I am ceratin!

Dear pe-zulu, Robert Riefling's WTC! What a mouth watering prosect! He is a wonderful pianist just going on the one recording I have of him in the greig onata! That is something which I will have to search out one day.

All the best from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik

The Walter cycle is on my wishlist too, even if I never owned the set myself, just knew someone well who did.
Rieflings WTC is rather singing in touch and a little restrained, introspective in expression, I think, you would like it, even if played on piano.

Kind regards,

Dear pe-zulu,

Singing and introspective sounds like it would please me very much, even on a piano. I can believe it from his playing of the Greig Sonata, which actually is something I love very well.

Thanks from Fredrik.

PS: Which label have it, please? The Greig was on Norske Kulturads and actually made by Phonogram

In the last couple of days I've dug out my Jochum cycle again and, truth be told, I'd forgotten just how wonderful it was. Recorded over the better part of decade at the time when mono was giving way to stereo, and split between two orchestras (the BPO and BRSO), I think it hasn't got nearly the praise it has deserved over the years. This may be partly due to the fact that it was split between stereo and mono and was closely followed by Karajan's early 60s cycle with the BPO which DG may have promoted more heavily (and to which I think this is superior in just about every regard).

This is very fresh Beethoven, and tempi are often fairly brisk, though not quite so much so as modern practice (and, unlike Toscanini or Furtwangler, no allowances need be made for the sound of any of these recordings).

I've so far only listened to the first four (recently, that is), I particularly enjoyed the Eroica, the finale of which I sometimes find falls a little flat, but not here. He also gives a blistering reading of the opening of the fourth symphony. The first symphony does wonderfully well thanks to his delicate touch.

Mackerras remains my first choice, but Jochum runs him a very close second. What is so fine about this cycle is if you took away all my other Beethoven symphonies (please don't!) I would be happy with this set, ditto Mackerras. Of the twelve I have, they are probably the only two of which I would say that.

regards, Tam

As I may have mentioned before, I have some twelve cycles (I used to have thirteen but I disliked Rattle's VPO effort and parted company with it) and a number of additional recordings besides. As such, it could probably (and quite successfully) be argued that I didn't really need another. However, the prospect of the recently rereleased (and, I assume, poorly selling) Colin Davis/Dresden Staatskapelle cycle at just £6 was simply too good a prospect to pass up.

According to the review in the Gramophone's database, this cycle is in the mould of Klemperer, however, not having any of his Beethoven to compare it with (although various bits are on my list) I don't know how true that is. The set was recorded in the early 90s so I am unsure whether the new Del Mar editions of the symphonies were used (the notes are unclear on this - certainly Mackerras, who began his in '91, used them).

On first listen, the tempi seem a little broader than I would ideally go for, but there is a wonderful richness of tone (but then one would expect that from this orchestra). So far (having only listened to the first) a very enjoyable bargain.

regards, Tam

Tam,

Am I to assume you're planning to take in all the 9 Beethoven/Mackerras Symphonies at the festival this year. I just booked for two today (Eroica & Pastoral) as weekend dates are hard to predict for me at the moment.

Starting as they do at 5.30 they provide a fine excuse to knock off work at a decent hour for once.

Ian

Dear Ian,

You assume correctly. All nine are booked. [there is no emoticon to do justice to how elated I was at this programming]

Also all the Bruckner. [I think I may need my head examining]

Also Rattle and Abbado and even, for once, some drama. But I'm going to virtually nothing at the Queen's hall this year.

regards, Tam

Rather than hijack the 'what are you listening to' thread much further:

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Beethoven's 3rd symphony. Colin Davis and the Dresden Staatskapelle. The more of this set I listen to the more impressed I am. Not quite a rival to my benchmark (Mackerras - surprise, surprise) or Jochum, but there is some wonderful stuff here. The textures this orchestra can produce are wonderful but what impresses me the most is the sense of journey Davis gives (of the sort I would more usually associate with a Mahler symphony): I would never have thought the 8th symphony could be draining. I am finding I can only listen to the symphonies one at a time (though in a good way - unlike Toscanini where they become relentless). After the 3rd I had to stop the cd before it ran onto the overture there as filler so I could have some quiet to think. This shows a side of Beethoven I hadn't really seen before. Thoroughly recommended (and £6 for the cycle was money well spent).

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Tam,

I listened to the Eroica Symphony earlier.

VPO Furtwangler in December 1944, live but in an empty Musikverein. Somehow the performance manages to be both cataclysmic and tender all in one go. What thoughts must have been running through the players' minds in those times, with the Russians on miles away from Vienna?

Furtwangler returned to Berlin after the perfoprmance, but was advised that the Gestapo had decided to pick him up, as there was already a huge file against him for anti-Nazi activities. He returned to Vienna, giving one more concert and then quietly walked across the border to Switzerland. Another storm awaited him there, as where ever he went at the time, he was to say the least a controversial figure.

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Dear Fredrik,

Thanks for the story (which was unknown to me).

The only Furtwangler 3rd I have is his later 1952 account - same venue and orchestra but not live. And, as the old adage goes, Furtwangler live was in a different league to the studio (or something like that), or, at least, that has been my impression from that excellent live box I picked up a few months back (which everyone should own). I may try and have another listen to it tomorrow.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Tam,

That 1952 HMV studio recording of the Eroica is an example of how nicely the VPO could play, but it definately shows signs that Furtwangler was not always at his most inspirational in the studio. There are exceptions of course: The Tristan set, or the Emperor Concerto (also with the Philharmonia, who loved him) with Edwin Fischer as inspirational piano soloist, for two examples.

That 1944 VPO Eroica reading is very special. Among so many fantastical details, never have the horns sounded so doleful after the big fugue in the middle of the slow movement, or indeed the sense that the music is literally breaking into pieces in front of our very consciousness, as Beethoven fragments the themes with terrible, terrifying pauses. The very last graces in the winds over the final two chords have never been played as a more desolate piece of resignation in my experience. Who says music has no meaning beside that which we as listeners apply? This is proof if ever.

In fact I think is in performances, on different occasions, by the same artists that make the greatest case for showing that on times the connection to the music is so accute as to be be painfully, and trajically revealing, both of the composer's state of mind and ispiration, and the fact that artists can on times come to a very close realisation of this in the sonority and expressive style of performance. Sure: The Eroica, really is a journey as gut wrenching as any in Mahler in my view, though it essentially is classical in that the end is an affirmation, and the resignation and terror of the first two movements are tidied up in the emotional security and optimism of the last two movements, even if the hint of terror and raw energy never quite dissipate in the finale, introduction and coda.

Indeed for a long while I used to find this symphony difficult, as it seems like Mr Hyde and Dr Jeckil in that order, but it is part of the artistic ethos of an age that still took the nobility of affirmation as the guiding principle in music.

Of the old music, only the Saint Matthew Passion ends in a way that is deeply questing and disturbing in its doubt in the final chorus! Bach was indeed a revolutionary and perhaps 150 years ahead of his time...

ATB from Fredrik

It is interesting the exceptions in Furtwangler's studio recordings - that Tristan is absolutely wonderful (I have yet to hear one to surpass it).

As to whether the Erioca takes one as far as, say Mahler 3, I am not totally convinced - I think Mahler shows the world (excuse the cliche) in a way Beethoven doesn't quite. However, what has amazed me so much about the Davis readings is not so much the Eroica but the 8th, which I normally find to be a light and refeshing symphony and have never heard with quite such depth before.

According the Gramophone review, these Davis readings are in fashion of Klemerer - if so, he is most definitely now on the list of cycles I shall be picking up in the future.

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

The Eighth Symphony of Beethoven is far more complex a journey musically than many performances really bring out. For once the Finale has as much weight as the first Movement, and indeed the two middle movements almost have the feeling of being a pair of slight intermezzi!

The greatest perfoances I have known well, in my view, are those of Klemperer, and the live recording done at Salzburg on Orfeo, by the VPO under Furtwangler.

I shall watch out for the Davis set now!

None of these are among the faster readings, (I once did listen to the Davis set, but in a sociable setting so a good listen was impossible), and it is quite vital to realise that the Minuet and Trio (as in the Second Symphony) has a slower than expected metronome marking! Klemperer and Furtwangler note this real Landler style of playing here, and the whole symphony comes out as a single arch from both these venerable meastroes! strange that two such different artists should for once come to such similar conclusions about how they wanted to performa the music. Naturally the VPO play in a different style to the Philharmonia, but this is a question of detail rather than anything radical.

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
The Eighth Symphony of Beethoven is far more complex a journey musically than many performances really bring out. For once the Finale has as much weight as the first Movement, and indeed the two middle movements almost have the feeling of being a pair of slight intermezzi!

The greatest perfoances I have known well, in my view, are those of Klemperer, and the live recording done at Salzburg on Orfeo, by the VPO under Furtwangler.

Dear Frederik

You are very right about this, and often no. Eight is indeed "underinterpreted". Maybe I should reacquire Klemperes set, but first a am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Mackerras set.

Regards,

I love what Mackerras does with the 8th, but it is entirely different to what we get from Davis. I think I may give Mackerras another spin for comparison when I get home this evening.

regards, Tam

I have just listened again to the Mackerras 8th and am really struck - if you wanted an example to prove the worth of having more than one interpretation of a given work, Mackerras and Davis would surely be a good one. Mackerras is light and brings out, first and foremost the joy and excitement of the work (in that way such a natural successor to the 7th). Davis, as discussed above, takes things slower (about 3 more minutes) and wrings the emotion from every bar (almost as Furtwangler in Wagner). Both are special and I wouldn't want to be without either. Yet both, with the same piece of music (give or take that I suspect Davis isn't using the new Del Mar editions) take me somewhere so different emotionally (and for some strange reason as I write this I find that profoundly moving).

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
I have just listened again to the Mackerras 8th and am really struck - if you wanted an example to prove the worth of having more than one interpretation of a given work, Mackerras and Davis would surely be a good one. Mackerras is light and brings out, first and foremost the joy and excitement of the work (in that way such a natural successor to the 7th). Davis, as discussed above, takes things slower (about 3 more minutes) and wrings the emotion from every bar (almost as Furtwangler in Wagner). Both are special and I wouldn't want to be without either. ...

regards, Tam

Dear Tam, and other friends who may be interested,

The parallels and differences between the Seventh and Eighth Symphonies are rather well underlined in the last concert Furtwangler led with the VPO in Salzburg in August 1954.

Like the Fifth and Sixth Symphonies, these two works are parallels in terms of time scale. Beethoven frequently had two or more big works in progress at the same time as was the case with both these pairings.

Furtwangler kicks the 7/8 pairing off with the Eighth! What is amazing listening to this performance is that the two Symphonies (a frequent pairing on Beethoven concerts from Furtwangler) is that the two form a huge architectural arch in one go! As if. in these two Symphonies, Furtwangler perceieved not only the internal links of the individual works, but the extrinsic links between the two. The oddity in that concert is that it also contained the most staggeringly moving performance of the Grosse Fugue I have ever come across.

The performance - without the Grosse Fugue - may be found on Orfeo [Salzburg] Festspieldukumente C 293 921 B on CD. Utterly compelling playing without even a hint of self-consciousmess.

Fredrik

Think I'm going to give Haitink's latest with the LSO a try

Dear Fredrik,

Thanks for this.


Dear EW,

I shall probably pick that up at some point (it's sounded very nice on CD Review), however I will probably wait for the whole cycle to be in a nice cheap budget box.

regards, Tam

Reply to Tam from Fredrik. You have an email. Please look ASAP! Nothing serious, but please look, F

Thanks Fredrik - as now do you.

regards, Tam

Well, in the last week or so I have polished off what remained of the Davis/Dresden cycle (finishing this evening with an absolutely glorious reading of the ninth).

I don't know how much I can add to what I have already said about this cycle without really repeating myself. Davis gets his Beethovenian surprise and suspense in an altogether different way than Mackerras (who a lot of the time derives it from brilliantly judged deviations from his generally brisk tempo). For Davis, many of the surprises come in what he brings from the orchestration. Indeed, very often throughout this cycle I have wondered if I am hearing a whole new orchestration. Of course, he is aided in this by the superb playing that the Dresdeners provide (and I have also wondered what things would have been like had Mackerras had an orchestra of this calibre on his cycle - no disrespect to the fine playing of the RLPO, but this is of a sightly higher order).

I mentioned in the Schubert unfinished symphony that Jochum in his conducting tends give you just one thing to listen to, as opposed to other schools which prevent a much wider canvas for your own ear to roam over. Davis is probably of the later, which is why so many surprises in orchestration keep creaping out, and then vanishing again.

The 5th was deeply special, which, for me, is saying something, given I am not usually overly impressed with the work, indeed, I would probably, given the chance, rank it as my least favourite. The readings I love tend to be the likes of Solti who drives himself over it so completely that there is a wonderful and firey excitement (Barenboim does something similar, though there is not quite so much of him in it). Davis much more sits back and lets the music speak for itself but the result is wonderfully moving and exciting.

The only thing approaching a disappointment in the set is the 6th, however, I should caveat that I don't really care for the work either. I tend to find it a little wall-papery (with some honourable exceptions such as the great Erich Kleiber readings). In the first two movements Davis is a little guilty of this too, but the second three were quite wonderful.

However, finer still (and along with the 8th) possibly the highlight of the set, is an absolutely glorious ninth. At 71 minutes this is not a brisk account (yet it never once feels sluggish - as with all these readings). Again there is glorious playing in all of the first three movements (particularly in the third where he captures wonderfully the moment that Fredrik and I have discussed at length in the Schubert 9 thread - though the string tone is not quite so cutting as the BPO were live, though I don't image that magic is quite possible to recreate in the home - and he really brings out these bars where sometimes they can fall by the wayside). The finale is also very fine (though here, and perhaps for the only time in the set, the recording quality is not quite so perfect, but this is a tiny quibble). Indeed, he reallly brings forward the preludes to Mahler (more convincingly than Rattle did live), the way he presents the first three themes, which can so often be blinked and missed, is near perfect (and I'm sure I've not heard them quite that isolated before). The choral singing is pretty good, though here the diction is not quite with the finest choirs and on the loudest moments (vor gott) things get a little muddy, and the recording seems a little cramped. But the Mahlerian way the final bars wring out makes up for any of these small quibbles.

However, I don't really know that any of these words can quite do these recordings justice. I still think that if one only owns one set of Beethoven symphonies it should be Mackerras, but if one has too, this should be it (I think its wonderful contrast to Mackerras edges out the fine Jochum). Along with these two, it is only the third set I have heard that I really consider satisfying (i.e. if you took away all my sets bar one, I would be happy with this as the one). I cannot recommend this enough (and it is a crime that it seems to have been deleted almost as soon as it was reissued). I urge forum members to look out for it and listen if they get a chance, I am sure you will not be disappointed.

One wouldn't think that after thirteen cycles and countless discs besides one could be so surprised and refreshed by a new set, and yet here it is.

It also makes me look forward eagerly to the Davis LSO Live Fidelio which will be out soon. I was already keen as Christine Brewer is singing the title role, but now knowing Davis's skill with Beethoven, I simply cannot wait.

regards, Tam