Is This Why An AV3 Maybe A Non Starter ?

Posted by: Neill Ferguson on 17 April 2010

I seen this on another forum and it may interest some of you I have copied and pasted if that's against the rules then I apologise just now I thought it was well written and an interesting point:

Hi Guys,

This is an interesting subject and whilst I feel a little maligned at some other comments I'll try and give a neutral response.

A modern AV processor is an incredibly complicated unit. It needs to handle switching of audio and video in both the analogue and digital domains. It needs to provide powerful DSP to decode and process these signals. It also needs to convert digital signals back to analogue and apply volume control.

On top of this many companies complicate things even further by attempting to build vdeo processing in to their products.

In the past it was possible for smaller companies to offer products in this sector because they could do analogue very well, there were very limited digital requirements and royalties for features like Dolby Pro Logic were managable. In the digital area it is important to remember that SPDIF is an almost 30 year old technology now so it is a long time since there was a lot of complicated development in this area. There were no fancy auto setup options or other complications.

This situation pretty much lasted up until about 4 or 5 years ago. I have a Pioneer 2011 receiver in my home that I purchased in 2004. This unit supports DD, DTS, has a number of decoding/dsp options, rudimentary auto setup and analogue only video switching with no video processing. Although for all that, the unit plays back DTS tracks 7dB lower in the left front channel than the right and I never saw that in any review at the time...

The change coincided with the appearance of HDMI. Suddenly the whole comfortable paradigm of producing these devices changed and you had this combined audio and video interface with a horrible protection scheme. Suddenly the digital design element became orders of magnitude more complex and since that really defined your device - more important.

As we all know, the first HDMI devices were grossly unreliable. HDCP caused no end of problems but the interfaces were rampant with bugs in the audio and video. I am certain that a number of companies at that time took one look at decided not to touch it until the problems were all sorted. Mutliple HDMI revs later we still have a ton of problems with HDCP but at least the gross errors seem to be pretty well worked out.

On top of this you were faced with another problem if you unwisely decided to do video processing at this time. A number of companies started to use the HQV Realta chip in their devices. This massively expensive part promises awesome performance but working with it was a nightmare beyond belief. Even buying this in on an Silicon Optix platform did not isolate at all from the software development requirement. The API for this piece was massive and impregnable and support was supplied by only a small team who ultimately relied on one Russian genius to explain the intricacies of how it worked. One of the companies we worked with tried using Realta to make a dedicated VP device. Even with a large team of PHD level engineers working only on the video side for 20 months they couldn't get performance to match what the device is capable of and programming difficulty was the single root cause. One of the biggest differences between Realta and Reon is that Reon actually has a decent interface for the engineers!

The final nail in the cofin for small companies was the emergence of sophisticated auto setup routines like YPAO, MCACC or third party solutions like Audyssey.

A small company can't afford the level of investment and long term research to develop such a system themselves but building in a unit like Audyssey requires ever more powerful DSPs to be employed and a per unit license fee that must be paid.

So you arrive at the situation we are at now, the development complexity is several orders of magnitude beyond where we were even 5 years ago. This brings commensurate increase in non recurring engineering costs especially in digital design, software development and product testing. Finally your design now includes a huge amount of SMT devices, multi layer circuit boards and more all of which wraps up to a massively complex build that means you have to start using contract manufacturers who never match the quality promises they give in the bid stage.

All of this comes at a time of economic uncertainty and falling retail prices driven by the aggressive developments from the far eastern companies.

So you have a huge risk in you NRE costs, falling margins, reliance on third party manufacturing and the voracious appetite of Joe public for new badges on the front panel regardless on sound performance improvements.

In the face of this it is pretty hard to see why any responsible CFO would sanction the development of an HD ready AV processor. We have already seen one venerable British company risk it all on HDMI devices and they are now on their knees with no obvious escape route.

The rest have looked at other areas where those NRE and licensing costs are much less and profit margins have not been eroded. That means relatively high end music systems and is a trend that can be seen easily by looking at their product lines.

Just my thoughts of course.
__________________
Neil Davidson
Genesis Technologies
Posted on: 27 May 2010 by Manu
Roy,

Av2 has discrete on/off commands.
Ask Naim for the document:
'AV2 Remote Control Codes'
Posted on: 27 May 2010 by Manu
Dave,
You have forgotten the Burndy socket.
Posted on: 28 May 2010 by SC
The AV2 On/Off is 27 - 12 .

However, this is simply a toggle.

For discrete On and Off, it is 27 - 110 and 27 - 111 respectively.....However, I've been told these do not work...!?
Posted on: 28 May 2010 by tonym
Wonder who told you that Steve?

No, they don't work. I just leave mine on all the time, as advised by Mr Naim himself!
Posted on: 28 May 2010 by SC
Oh just some dude I met at a BBQ sometime back...Seems to know his AV stuff... Winker Razz
Posted on: 30 May 2010 by IWC Doppel
Well,

I must say I am of a different opinion regarding HD processing....

I have tried the AV888, AVR600 listened to the ADA and Anthem and whilst I have not had the Anthem at home I am simply underwhelmed by HDMI in for audio processing. Lots of talk about jitter etc. But my Denon 3800 feeding an AV2 (I replaced an AV8 with this and I have looked at Lexicons and others too) is better in my opinion.

I'm off to the Cinema now but I'll leave you with a comment from a guy who I spoke to at Meridian who says that video processing and audio processing are better separated and HDMI is an audio disaster...... Hence the HD621 box of tricks.

A good friend with an AV888 uses his A1UD with analogue in as it sounds better.

I thought processing in the BR player was a short term fix. I think it will be much longer than I fist thought. I have not had a HD processor at home that can beat my AV8 fed by my 3800 or the A1 (better again) into the AV8.

The AV2 is better than the AV8 in this mode.

I will try the ADA and possibly Anthem at home, but I am not expecting it to do what I would have expected it to...... sound dramatically better for film.....
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by IWC Doppel:
Well,

I must say I am of a different opinion regarding HD processing....

I have tried the AV888, AVR600 listened to the ADA and Anthem and whilst I have not had the Anthem at home I am simply underwhelmed by HDMI in for audio processing. Lots of talk about jitter etc. But my Denon 3800 feeding an AV2 (I replaced an AV8 with this and I have looked at Lexicons and others too) is better in my opinion.

I'm off to the Cinema now but I'll leave you with a comment from a guy who I spoke to at Meridian who says that video processing and audio processing are better separated and HDMI is an audio disaster...... Hence the HD621 box of tricks.

A good friend with an AV888 uses his A1UD with analogue in as it sounds better.

I thought processing in the BR player was a short term fix. I think it will be much longer than I fist thought. I have not had a HD processor at home that can beat my AV8 fed by my 3800 or the A1 (better again) into the AV8.

The AV2 is better than the AV8 in this mode.

I will try the ADA and possibly Anthem at home, but I am not expecting it to do what I would have expected it to...... sound dramatically better for film.....


I said this earlier in the thread that Meridian's stance was that that the HDMI for audio and video was a complete nightmare. Its interesting as now the market seems to be settling there is a real lack of AV pre-amps out there.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by IWC Doppel
I think there are some real challenges with AV at the moment, the one size fits all is just not working for starters. The AV marketing machines have done a fantastic job but the economy and experience is now bearing down.

I for one will not 'invest' in new AV without very, very careful consideration. Those who have done so dream about Hifi depreciation. The problem now is the high end AV market is frankly small and the experiences are not good... most manufacturers have been keen to promote the new with no or little regard to their customer base. Seriously expensive products, that were bought by those benchmarking their experiences on 2 channel had a shocking and educational awakening.

And now the latest and greatest is seen by those with the cheque books as a sure way to burn money.

Add to this the fact that those who have thoroughly done the analysis of 'legacy' products have found that the 'new' is very disappointing.

HMDI is at the very best seriously problematic at the worst it is a failure for anyone interested in serious audio from film.

Another telling point is that the Meridian HD621 took some 2 years before release. Why ? well evidently the agreements with vested interest in keeping a grip on piracy and HDMI licensing call the shots.

If I were Naim I would consider a BR player at most one that did justice to analogue out
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Mr Underhill
IWC,

I'd be surprised if Naim do anything much in the AV space for a while. The standards are continually shifting, and BR may not turn out to be the ultimate victor.

The gap between video and DVD on a non-CRT screen was self evident. The gap between BR and DVD is there, but with good upscaling is not such an immediate clincher, esp. as DVD is a much newer technology and people have made a serious investment in the media.

Personally I am sticking with my DVD5 & AV2. The sound quality from the AV2 is superb.

My next AV step will be to get a HiDef screen, when my SD Panny dies - and then use the DVI out on the DVD5.

I am unconvinced by some of the rumours I have heard wrt the AV3.

I sometimes feel Naim is heading down the Meridian line, by selling disparate pieces of functionality in one box; as I would contend they are doing with their Uniti products:

Can I have a streamer? No, you can have a streamer with a collection of amps; or, a streamer with a HDD and a drive.


I am more seriously considering ripping my large DVD collection, rather than buying BR.

With my music and my films ripped I'll have a library of media that can be accessed through-out the house.

M
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by David Dever
quote:
I sometimes feel Naim is heading down the Meridian line, by selling disparate pieces of functionality in one box; as I would contend they are doing with their Uniti products:

Can I have a streamer? No, you can have a streamer with a collection of amps; or, a streamer with a HDD and a drive.


Funny you say that, as, were it not marred by a varirty of production issues, the n-Vi was a pretty market-facing product, whose true promise was never met within a timely fashion.

The HDX, derived from the NaimNet servers, is in fact a server / player, not just a "streamer" in the Linn sense, as it can eat from its own hands while feeding others. Again, a niche waiting to be filled (name one other audiophile company who makes a server / player domestically with decent sound quality?)....

Likewise - the market for streaming integrateds was a niche waiting to be filled, and for which more iterations would be well-received, relative to a source-only device which would have had much limited appeal at the outset (and would have been interpreted as a me-too product).

Personally, I would be happy to see a UPnP video integrated with scaling and surround processing, like a Uniti Video, for example.*

* - The Uniti was originally slated to be called the n-Vi Music, as evidenced by the NVM RS-232 header used to control the device, as well as the grouping of buttons + display to the right, etc.
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by tonym
I agree with IWC & Mr Underhill; the AV2's a very good processor indeed and has excellent synergy with other Naim components.

I'd really love to be able to reduce box count & go for an all-singing-all-dancing one box HD/HDMI solution but I have no confidence that any of the new kit can match my current Oppo BluRay decoding HD into AV2 to Naim amps and speakers, plus Lumagen video processor handling HDMI video.

An AV3 would be very nice though...
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
Frankly, I want nothing to do with this

Thankfully, you're not my AV dealer David...

Bet you would change your tune if you had a AV3 in you hands next week though...! Winker Razz

Like this? Keep dreaming....



I was thinking something a lot simpler ... like this

but with Naim know how and analogue magic.

Yes it needs DIN input sockets and maybe PSU upgrade-ability or separate PSU - but no/limited legacy video (maybe a couple more HDMI inputs for switching - leave that for an offboard DVDO (or similar) video processor - infact if Naim could add the capability to use RS232 to switch an external (third party) processor that would be perfect!

Basically a simple (in terms of features) high quality box. Maybe put it in a "classic" sized box rather than 5-series size.

Eloise
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Occean
quote:
I have no confidence that any of the new kit can match my current Oppo BluRay decoding HD into AV2 to Naim amps

An AV3 would be very nice though...


I am with you here - as nice as an Av3 would be since buying my OPPO I have suddenly have no desire to replace my AV2. The results have been fantastic.

Longer term the only issue will be when I need HD codec decoding on a different source, which I cannot see happening soon.
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
Oh just some dude I met at a BBQ sometime back...Seems to know his AV stuff... Winker Razz


It may be that they "don't work" because when I set up my AV2 I found that many of the discrete codes listed in teh document were "one out" (offset by one) - I did report this back but I don't know whether the document ever got updated.

Cheers

Phil
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
Like this? Keep dreaming....



*chuckle* I'm a simple man David ... for me it would ideally have a single HDMI in that you could feed from an external HDMI switch, a single HDMI out for passing on to a display, four optical S/PDIF, four electrical S/PDIF, four stereo analogue, a 7.1 analogue in and an RS232 port - I'd be in hog heaven!

Personally I'd leave all the video conversion and switching to a separate box that can be upgraded / updated / replaced as needs change.

(This is all *MY* personal preference of course...)

Phil
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by David Dever
That's an old picture (over eighteen months ago, methinks).
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by SC
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
for me it would ideally have a single HDMI in that you could feed from an external HDMI switch, a single HDMI out for passing on to a display, four optical S/PDIF, four electrical S/PDIF, four stereo analogue, a 7.1 analogue in and an RS232 port - I'd be in hog heaven!

Almost the HD621 then....! Winker
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
for me it would ideally have a single HDMI in that you could feed from an external HDMI switch, a single HDMI out for passing on to a display, four optical S/PDIF, four electrical S/PDIF, four stereo analogue, a 7.1 analogue in and an RS232 port - I'd be in hog heaven!

Almost the HD621 then....! Winker

Far from it - unless I'm mistaken the HD621 is basically a six input HDMI switch that taps out the digital audio from the selected HDMI input for processing elsewhere.

Not the same thing at all.

Basically I still love the AV2 - OK it doesn't do HD audio but in my opinion there's little to touch it still, it never fails to provide me with huge gobbets of fun. Big Grin

Phil
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Mr Underhill
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
name one other audiophile company who makes a server / player domestically with decent sound quality?....


Hi David,

My issue with what I'll call the 'holistic' approach, that is bundling functionality into a product, is that many of us have made an investment in items which give you some of the functionality, but to a better quality.

The UnitiQute contains a series of amps & a DAC .....but I've got those.

The UnitiServer contains an HDD, drive, ripping engine & DAC ...got those.

I believe Naim have been thinking of building an AV3 with a very high quality, 252, pre-amp ....but I've got one of those.


I would not include the HDX in this, I think it is a product with functionality that does stand on its own; it is, in essence, a HQ Audio PC and makes, to my thinking, a logical unit.


The problem with this Meridian/Uniti approach IMO is it raises the financial bar by making you re-purchase functionality. OK if you have no previous investment, an issue if you have.


What I would have liked for an AV3 was a box that could take the high-def audio streams from BR and split those out for feeding into my AV2; enabling me to keep my AV2 investment but move elegantly to BR.

As it happens the only option that looks available is the Audiolab.

When the 621 came out I thought - this is it; but I believe that the HiDef streams are handled via Meridian encrypted audio, and so not feasible within my system.


In the event I have decided to stick with my DVD5/AV2 for the present.

Likewise the Uniti approach to streaming is making me look at other options for streaming audio to my nDAC.

I think Naim are loosing opportunities to foster their current customer base.

M
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by SC
Phil - Of course you're right... I lost my brain! I must have got all excited by the HDMI ports on the HD621 and completely forgot the one thing we all want a AV3, or similar, to do - decode !!

Of course Mr Underhill is spot on bringing up the fact the Meridian uses a proprietary codec, thus tying you into the brand...

Steve.
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by SC
Very good post Mr Underhill.

Spot on....

Personally, I'm thoroughly confused by much of Naim's latest product releases, or rather, their intended niche and overall roadmap....Noting they have taken away the Suggested Systems on the new website, perhaps they are confused how it all fits together too...! Winker There seems to be an increasing intent on fitting more & more into a box and a move away from the previously opposite Naim philosophy, which I found highly attractive, of less is more...

Steve.

p.s. FYI, I believe the Audiolab 8000AP will NOT decode HD audio, only accepting PCM signals from source. I have also just read a review mentioning it had difficulty with switching 1080P video signals...Perhaps not a wise £1k spend, just to go into the AV2.
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Mr Underhill
Thx SC,

I'm sure neither of us would bother posting if we didn't care ...and didn't feel frustrated by some of the 'strategic' decisions being taken at Naim Central.

I agree about the Audiolab, which is why I've avoided it.


quote:
Originally posted by SC:
...perhaps they are confused how it all fits together too...! Winker ...


Big Grin

M
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by IWC Doppel
I looked at the HD621, great for a Meridian system , but that's it.

HDMI as we know is a real audio challenge, seems that the licencing laws and commercial deals will stop anything like a 3 spdif or alternative output ever happening.

I have resided to using a BR player analogue out which for those that have tried can be remarkably good.

If Naim could partner with Oppo and look at an Audio solution we can keep our AV2's and live happily ever after
Posted on: 02 June 2010 by Prouddaddy
Reading through this thread I just don't see how Naim would release an AV3 in the near future given their limited resources and the complexities surrounding HDMI.

If I remember correctly, the AV2 was an OEM product that utilized the Vinci Labs Titan platform and G6 boards. Naim of course made modifications to the platform but the platform nevertheless was developed by a third party. Vinci Labs has now gone under and many higher end and boutique companies (Myryad, Parasound, Halcro etc.) are struggling to either partner with an OEM party or develop their own platforms with little success. Witness the inability of Outlaw Audio to license a a "working" platform from Sherwood Newcastle or the slew of problems experienced by Emotiva Audio and Arcam to get their platforms bug free and fully operational. I'm sure that this is a game Naim do not want to play anytime soon.

Personally, my experience with the AV2 has not been the joy others report here. When it worked properly, it sounded very good, with the exception of it's DPL II implementation which I found to be substandard. Unfortunately, my unit experienced more problems than I care to remember, was plagued with bugs and required constant resets etc. That said, I am on the hunt for another AV2 to see if it was just an isolated experience.
Posted on: 03 June 2010 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by IWC Doppel:
I looked at the HD621, great for a Meridian system , but that's it.

HDMI as we know is a real audio challenge, seems that the licencing laws and commercial deals will stop anything like a 3 spdif or alternative output ever happening.

You are of course right that the Meridian HD621 is only any use for a Meridian system, but then Meridian never designed it to be anything else.

Meridian's philosophy is that any HDMI Video signals inside their audio processor is a bad thing. They also believe that HD decoding should be done by the player, before being transfered as LPCM signal. This is what they have done in making the HD621.

As has been commented, one of the closest things to a HD decoder that would work with the AV2 is to use the Audiolab 8000AP - but you are then limited to it's internal DACs and (for some people) the lack of HD decoding is an issue - using things like Popcorn Hour / WD HD need the processor to decode the HD audio. The other method of extracting (LPCM) HD audio would be with the Clux AU11SA device which output's via 4 stereo mini-jacks. If you follow the example of some of the Meridian owners, this can be modified to allow 3x SPDIF output - you could then route those through multiple 2-channel DACs and into the multi-channel input of an AV2 (though it's not very elegant I grant you).

Having said all that - an AV3 with a few HDMI inputs, digital and analogue audio, plus the ability to control an external video scaler would be perfect (to my mind). Concentrate on the audio NOT on features that most higher end users actually find irrelevant.

Eloise