Is This Why An AV3 Maybe A Non Starter ?
Posted by: Neill Ferguson on 17 April 2010
I seen this on another forum and it may interest some of you I have copied and pasted if that's against the rules then I apologise just now I thought it was well written and an interesting point:
Hi Guys,
This is an interesting subject and whilst I feel a little maligned at some other comments I'll try and give a neutral response.
A modern AV processor is an incredibly complicated unit. It needs to handle switching of audio and video in both the analogue and digital domains. It needs to provide powerful DSP to decode and process these signals. It also needs to convert digital signals back to analogue and apply volume control.
On top of this many companies complicate things even further by attempting to build vdeo processing in to their products.
In the past it was possible for smaller companies to offer products in this sector because they could do analogue very well, there were very limited digital requirements and royalties for features like Dolby Pro Logic were managable. In the digital area it is important to remember that SPDIF is an almost 30 year old technology now so it is a long time since there was a lot of complicated development in this area. There were no fancy auto setup options or other complications.
This situation pretty much lasted up until about 4 or 5 years ago. I have a Pioneer 2011 receiver in my home that I purchased in 2004. This unit supports DD, DTS, has a number of decoding/dsp options, rudimentary auto setup and analogue only video switching with no video processing. Although for all that, the unit plays back DTS tracks 7dB lower in the left front channel than the right and I never saw that in any review at the time...
The change coincided with the appearance of HDMI. Suddenly the whole comfortable paradigm of producing these devices changed and you had this combined audio and video interface with a horrible protection scheme. Suddenly the digital design element became orders of magnitude more complex and since that really defined your device - more important.
As we all know, the first HDMI devices were grossly unreliable. HDCP caused no end of problems but the interfaces were rampant with bugs in the audio and video. I am certain that a number of companies at that time took one look at decided not to touch it until the problems were all sorted. Mutliple HDMI revs later we still have a ton of problems with HDCP but at least the gross errors seem to be pretty well worked out.
On top of this you were faced with another problem if you unwisely decided to do video processing at this time. A number of companies started to use the HQV Realta chip in their devices. This massively expensive part promises awesome performance but working with it was a nightmare beyond belief. Even buying this in on an Silicon Optix platform did not isolate at all from the software development requirement. The API for this piece was massive and impregnable and support was supplied by only a small team who ultimately relied on one Russian genius to explain the intricacies of how it worked. One of the companies we worked with tried using Realta to make a dedicated VP device. Even with a large team of PHD level engineers working only on the video side for 20 months they couldn't get performance to match what the device is capable of and programming difficulty was the single root cause. One of the biggest differences between Realta and Reon is that Reon actually has a decent interface for the engineers!
The final nail in the cofin for small companies was the emergence of sophisticated auto setup routines like YPAO, MCACC or third party solutions like Audyssey.
A small company can't afford the level of investment and long term research to develop such a system themselves but building in a unit like Audyssey requires ever more powerful DSPs to be employed and a per unit license fee that must be paid.
So you arrive at the situation we are at now, the development complexity is several orders of magnitude beyond where we were even 5 years ago. This brings commensurate increase in non recurring engineering costs especially in digital design, software development and product testing. Finally your design now includes a huge amount of SMT devices, multi layer circuit boards and more all of which wraps up to a massively complex build that means you have to start using contract manufacturers who never match the quality promises they give in the bid stage.
All of this comes at a time of economic uncertainty and falling retail prices driven by the aggressive developments from the far eastern companies.
So you have a huge risk in you NRE costs, falling margins, reliance on third party manufacturing and the voracious appetite of Joe public for new badges on the front panel regardless on sound performance improvements.
In the face of this it is pretty hard to see why any responsible CFO would sanction the development of an HD ready AV processor. We have already seen one venerable British company risk it all on HDMI devices and they are now on their knees with no obvious escape route.
The rest have looked at other areas where those NRE and licensing costs are much less and profit margins have not been eroded. That means relatively high end music systems and is a trend that can be seen easily by looking at their product lines.
Just my thoughts of course.
__________________
Neil Davidson
Genesis Technologies
Hi Guys,
This is an interesting subject and whilst I feel a little maligned at some other comments I'll try and give a neutral response.
A modern AV processor is an incredibly complicated unit. It needs to handle switching of audio and video in both the analogue and digital domains. It needs to provide powerful DSP to decode and process these signals. It also needs to convert digital signals back to analogue and apply volume control.
On top of this many companies complicate things even further by attempting to build vdeo processing in to their products.
In the past it was possible for smaller companies to offer products in this sector because they could do analogue very well, there were very limited digital requirements and royalties for features like Dolby Pro Logic were managable. In the digital area it is important to remember that SPDIF is an almost 30 year old technology now so it is a long time since there was a lot of complicated development in this area. There were no fancy auto setup options or other complications.
This situation pretty much lasted up until about 4 or 5 years ago. I have a Pioneer 2011 receiver in my home that I purchased in 2004. This unit supports DD, DTS, has a number of decoding/dsp options, rudimentary auto setup and analogue only video switching with no video processing. Although for all that, the unit plays back DTS tracks 7dB lower in the left front channel than the right and I never saw that in any review at the time...
The change coincided with the appearance of HDMI. Suddenly the whole comfortable paradigm of producing these devices changed and you had this combined audio and video interface with a horrible protection scheme. Suddenly the digital design element became orders of magnitude more complex and since that really defined your device - more important.
As we all know, the first HDMI devices were grossly unreliable. HDCP caused no end of problems but the interfaces were rampant with bugs in the audio and video. I am certain that a number of companies at that time took one look at decided not to touch it until the problems were all sorted. Mutliple HDMI revs later we still have a ton of problems with HDCP but at least the gross errors seem to be pretty well worked out.
On top of this you were faced with another problem if you unwisely decided to do video processing at this time. A number of companies started to use the HQV Realta chip in their devices. This massively expensive part promises awesome performance but working with it was a nightmare beyond belief. Even buying this in on an Silicon Optix platform did not isolate at all from the software development requirement. The API for this piece was massive and impregnable and support was supplied by only a small team who ultimately relied on one Russian genius to explain the intricacies of how it worked. One of the companies we worked with tried using Realta to make a dedicated VP device. Even with a large team of PHD level engineers working only on the video side for 20 months they couldn't get performance to match what the device is capable of and programming difficulty was the single root cause. One of the biggest differences between Realta and Reon is that Reon actually has a decent interface for the engineers!
The final nail in the cofin for small companies was the emergence of sophisticated auto setup routines like YPAO, MCACC or third party solutions like Audyssey.
A small company can't afford the level of investment and long term research to develop such a system themselves but building in a unit like Audyssey requires ever more powerful DSPs to be employed and a per unit license fee that must be paid.
So you arrive at the situation we are at now, the development complexity is several orders of magnitude beyond where we were even 5 years ago. This brings commensurate increase in non recurring engineering costs especially in digital design, software development and product testing. Finally your design now includes a huge amount of SMT devices, multi layer circuit boards and more all of which wraps up to a massively complex build that means you have to start using contract manufacturers who never match the quality promises they give in the bid stage.
All of this comes at a time of economic uncertainty and falling retail prices driven by the aggressive developments from the far eastern companies.
So you have a huge risk in you NRE costs, falling margins, reliance on third party manufacturing and the voracious appetite of Joe public for new badges on the front panel regardless on sound performance improvements.
In the face of this it is pretty hard to see why any responsible CFO would sanction the development of an HD ready AV processor. We have already seen one venerable British company risk it all on HDMI devices and they are now on their knees with no obvious escape route.
The rest have looked at other areas where those NRE and licensing costs are much less and profit margins have not been eroded. That means relatively high end music systems and is a trend that can be seen easily by looking at their product lines.
Just my thoughts of course.
__________________
Neil Davidson
Genesis Technologies
quote:Originally posted by Eloise:quote:Originally posted by IWC Doppel:
I looked at the HD621, great for a Meridian system , but that's it.
HDMI as we know is a real audio challenge, seems that the licencing laws and commercial deals will stop anything like a 3 spdif or alternative output ever happening.
The other method of extracting (LPCM) HD audio would be with the Clux AU11SA device which output's via 4 stereo mini-jacks. If you follow the example of some of the Meridian owners, this can be modified to allow 3x SPDIF output - you could then route those through multiple 2-channel DACs and into the multi-channel input of an AV2 (though it's not very elegant I grant you).
Eloise
I have looked at how 3 spdif outputs might be acheived to allow audio upgradeability, you could start with three DacMagics and work up. The DAC's would add complexity, but it would be a neat solution in some ways. The problem, solved, but not neatly is the HD621, if this had spdif out, I would be very interested but HDMI - HD621 - another box then 3 DAC's sounds a little too complex to not be an expensive recipe for jitter...
I will be keeping an eye out for high quality audio out players. I use a Denon 3800 at present and have tried a a1UD at home, good though the A1 was it was only better in some, not all areas over the 3800. Indeed the A1 does sound a little 'over polished' and etched.
An AV3 would be interesting but I strongly suspect that acheiving something that is a substantial step forward for AV from a BR decoded and processed HD signal into the AV2 will not be a cinch !
I will hopefully try the marantz UD9004. but I only want BR replay not SACD etc, etc. The oppo SE coiuld be interesting, but the bass management really rules that out.
Real shame about the licencing laws for BR a neat 3 spdif output would be awesome. That will unfortunately never happen
Do try the 9004 IWC - the analogue output has been substantially tweaked over the Denon (apparently the supposedly similar machines are quite different under the hood, and not just the analogue stage)...Marantz themselves highlight the analogue performance being similar to their SA-7 CD player...
I've heard it, and was impressed, but what I haven't yet heard is it playing into Naim, or more specifically into the AV2 VS1&2, but everything I've read and consulted with others leads me to believe this is going to be about the best analogue BD option at present (the fact I'll gain a very good SACD player is a complete bonus and I'll also really enjoy comparing DVD-A performance with the DVD5..!
)....I posted a little while back that this was probably the route I will take and nothing has really come along to change that plan - certainly no AV3 !
What's the deal with the Oppo and bass management then...??
Steve.
I've heard it, and was impressed, but what I haven't yet heard is it playing into Naim, or more specifically into the AV2 VS1&2, but everything I've read and consulted with others leads me to believe this is going to be about the best analogue BD option at present (the fact I'll gain a very good SACD player is a complete bonus and I'll also really enjoy comparing DVD-A performance with the DVD5..!
)....I posted a little while back that this was probably the route I will take and nothing has really come along to change that plan - certainly no AV3 !What's the deal with the Oppo and bass management then...??
Steve.
SC thanks,
I will try the 9004, just had a quote for a roof retile so looks like it won't be quite such an immediate purchase
But I would like to try in any case. Interestingly I spoke to a guy who has a very exotic home cinema system, it makes my 7 x 135's look rather minimalist ! He really rates the BR audio of the 3800, so perhaps I will find the 9004 is an upgrade but not as much as I would like to sell my player for £500ish and find another £4.5k......
Regarding bass management the Denon has adjustable sub xover points and a 10db boost not all have the 10db boost, meaning matching with a DVD player if you have a DVD5 will be that straightforward. The fixed xover rules most players out for me my sonus faber sub only goes up to 60hz so a fixed 80 leaves a big hole.
By the way if you have no in room sub equalisation the antinode 8033 for a couple of hundred pounds is very good indeed. For film I put all of my LFE and below 60hz through the sub via the 8033
I will try the 9004, just had a quote for a roof retile so looks like it won't be quite such an immediate purchase
But I would like to try in any case. Interestingly I spoke to a guy who has a very exotic home cinema system, it makes my 7 x 135's look rather minimalist ! He really rates the BR audio of the 3800, so perhaps I will find the 9004 is an upgrade but not as much as I would like to sell my player for £500ish and find another £4.5k......
Regarding bass management the Denon has adjustable sub xover points and a 10db boost not all have the 10db boost, meaning matching with a DVD player if you have a DVD5 will be that straightforward. The fixed xover rules most players out for me my sonus faber sub only goes up to 60hz so a fixed 80 leaves a big hole.
By the way if you have no in room sub equalisation the antinode 8033 for a couple of hundred pounds is very good indeed. For film I put all of my LFE and below 60hz through the sub via the 8033
quote:
What's the deal with the Oppo and bass management then...??
Currently it is really basic.... large or small and 80hz cutoff only (which is a non issue for me) - though I believe this will be changed in a firmware update.
But for some reason I need to +10db on the bass channel of the analogue outs, there is some info why on the internet but I do not really understand it
- it took ages for me top setup right (to get the bass levels on the AV2 playing dolby digital the same as OPPO playing DTS-HD) the results are amazing.What is nice is it correctly manages SACD too - which a lot of players don't.
Don't panic Steve!
Many moons ago there was a thread about fixed crossovers but I can't find it at the moment.
Suffice to say the fixed crossover only becomes important if you've got small satellite speakers plus sub.,and even then 80Hz is not a bad crossover point for Home Cinema duties.
If you've got reasonably full-range speakers & specify this in the setup then the only thing wot comes out the sub. is the .1 effects subsonic as encoded on the disk. Which is actually what you want. Of course there's no problem at all if using SP/DIF output.
My n-Sub's set at 250Hz for Home Cinema use so whatever the disc sends to it can be reproduced.
Many moons ago there was a thread about fixed crossovers but I can't find it at the moment.
Suffice to say the fixed crossover only becomes important if you've got small satellite speakers plus sub.,and even then 80Hz is not a bad crossover point for Home Cinema duties.
If you've got reasonably full-range speakers & specify this in the setup then the only thing wot comes out the sub. is the .1 effects subsonic as encoded on the disk. Which is actually what you want. Of course there's no problem at all if using SP/DIF output.
My n-Sub's set at 250Hz for Home Cinema use so whatever the disc sends to it can be reproduced.
Well I am some 10 films in with the AV2 and all have been impressed with the Denon 3800 feeding VS1 and VS2 on the AV2.
I now have taken the time to replay a few reference films and I am very, very impressed. There is a weight, body and naturalness that is a notable step forward from the AV8.
I am simply drawn into the film, and not left wanting in any obvious area.
Analogue in processed HD audio for film is very, very impressive into the AV2 and a bunch of 135's
I now have taken the time to replay a few reference films and I am very, very impressed. There is a weight, body and naturalness that is a notable step forward from the AV8.
I am simply drawn into the film, and not left wanting in any obvious area.
Analogue in processed HD audio for film is very, very impressive into the AV2 and a bunch of 135's
Oh please be right Stu...