Is This Why An AV3 Maybe A Non Starter ?
Posted by: Neill Ferguson on 17 April 2010
I seen this on another forum and it may interest some of you I have copied and pasted if that's against the rules then I apologise just now I thought it was well written and an interesting point:
Hi Guys,
This is an interesting subject and whilst I feel a little maligned at some other comments I'll try and give a neutral response.
A modern AV processor is an incredibly complicated unit. It needs to handle switching of audio and video in both the analogue and digital domains. It needs to provide powerful DSP to decode and process these signals. It also needs to convert digital signals back to analogue and apply volume control.
On top of this many companies complicate things even further by attempting to build vdeo processing in to their products.
In the past it was possible for smaller companies to offer products in this sector because they could do analogue very well, there were very limited digital requirements and royalties for features like Dolby Pro Logic were managable. In the digital area it is important to remember that SPDIF is an almost 30 year old technology now so it is a long time since there was a lot of complicated development in this area. There were no fancy auto setup options or other complications.
This situation pretty much lasted up until about 4 or 5 years ago. I have a Pioneer 2011 receiver in my home that I purchased in 2004. This unit supports DD, DTS, has a number of decoding/dsp options, rudimentary auto setup and analogue only video switching with no video processing. Although for all that, the unit plays back DTS tracks 7dB lower in the left front channel than the right and I never saw that in any review at the time...
The change coincided with the appearance of HDMI. Suddenly the whole comfortable paradigm of producing these devices changed and you had this combined audio and video interface with a horrible protection scheme. Suddenly the digital design element became orders of magnitude more complex and since that really defined your device - more important.
As we all know, the first HDMI devices were grossly unreliable. HDCP caused no end of problems but the interfaces were rampant with bugs in the audio and video. I am certain that a number of companies at that time took one look at decided not to touch it until the problems were all sorted. Mutliple HDMI revs later we still have a ton of problems with HDCP but at least the gross errors seem to be pretty well worked out.
On top of this you were faced with another problem if you unwisely decided to do video processing at this time. A number of companies started to use the HQV Realta chip in their devices. This massively expensive part promises awesome performance but working with it was a nightmare beyond belief. Even buying this in on an Silicon Optix platform did not isolate at all from the software development requirement. The API for this piece was massive and impregnable and support was supplied by only a small team who ultimately relied on one Russian genius to explain the intricacies of how it worked. One of the companies we worked with tried using Realta to make a dedicated VP device. Even with a large team of PHD level engineers working only on the video side for 20 months they couldn't get performance to match what the device is capable of and programming difficulty was the single root cause. One of the biggest differences between Realta and Reon is that Reon actually has a decent interface for the engineers!
The final nail in the cofin for small companies was the emergence of sophisticated auto setup routines like YPAO, MCACC or third party solutions like Audyssey.
A small company can't afford the level of investment and long term research to develop such a system themselves but building in a unit like Audyssey requires ever more powerful DSPs to be employed and a per unit license fee that must be paid.
So you arrive at the situation we are at now, the development complexity is several orders of magnitude beyond where we were even 5 years ago. This brings commensurate increase in non recurring engineering costs especially in digital design, software development and product testing. Finally your design now includes a huge amount of SMT devices, multi layer circuit boards and more all of which wraps up to a massively complex build that means you have to start using contract manufacturers who never match the quality promises they give in the bid stage.
All of this comes at a time of economic uncertainty and falling retail prices driven by the aggressive developments from the far eastern companies.
So you have a huge risk in you NRE costs, falling margins, reliance on third party manufacturing and the voracious appetite of Joe public for new badges on the front panel regardless on sound performance improvements.
In the face of this it is pretty hard to see why any responsible CFO would sanction the development of an HD ready AV processor. We have already seen one venerable British company risk it all on HDMI devices and they are now on their knees with no obvious escape route.
The rest have looked at other areas where those NRE and licensing costs are much less and profit margins have not been eroded. That means relatively high end music systems and is a trend that can be seen easily by looking at their product lines.
Just my thoughts of course.
__________________
Neil Davidson
Genesis Technologies
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by zorba
I think there are a number of problems with high end AV:
1. The rate of 'progress' means that the smaller volume high end units hit the market late, often have bugs and levels of disappointment
"Hopefully it will be all about keeping it simple with quality, functionality and form as priority and less of the bells and whistles which increases the chance of software problems."
2. HDMI is an absolute pain and there is a lot of debate around this. I certainly don't intend to use this for audio, getting HDMI to do a good job with audio is in the very, very tricky box
"Cannot HDMI carry audio in digital form which can then be processed by the internal AV3 dacs successfully? Or depending on source HDMI for AV and L + R out for stereo only or whatever other digital means that the source may offer to get the signal to the dac like most are using over in distributed audio."
3. The levels of depreciation for higher end equipment are eye watering anyone having gone through the exercise is unlikely to do it frequently/again. I would like to try a Marantz UD9004 but there is no way I will fork out £5k on anything like that. I bought my 3800 after demoing and paid £1,450 a good deal at the time, Feb 09, within weeks it was available for £1,200. Then 2 months later it was replaced and available for £750 from the big volume discount stores..... Now it's seen as very old...
The market for this stuff is guys like us who know what HiFi depreciation looks like and NOW know what AV depreciation looks like.....
"As we are talking about Naim there was an AV2 on ebay from 2003 going for £1000+ seven years later even BMW will struggle to ask for half its price when new. So although out dated it does what it does the best and the AV3 if well designed will no doubt hopefully prove to be an investment."
4. The AV market can't crack good stereo and one box fits all makes life more expensive and clearly is a compromise
"Its 2010 with todays implementation why does it have to be a compromise? or am i challenging science? I thought if you get rid of the AM/FM radio capabilities it would get rid of alot of interference within the box?"
5. There is a lot to be said for good music and I think those looking and expecting to have an integrated high preforming system now realise the challenges and are perhaps more prepared to compromise AV than music.
"AV can be just as important and enjoyable as stereo - I like to be a hero for a couple of hours."
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
Zobra,
I'm with you on point 5 I wouldn't have 7 x 135's in my cinema room if I wasn't. A lot of my Hifi friends aren't the same
Ever tried, Lexicon, Meridian, Arcam, ADA processors for Stereo ? All I can say is I am underwhelmed. Look at the back of one of these processors and you get the 'picture' video processing in the same box, for most, well pretty much all bar Naim...... If you build an isolated preamp then you are effectively building another unit in the same box
I have an AV2, late, mint model I brought for £800 with the latest software installed. Less than 1/3 the price in a few years. Find me NAP 300's at under £2k a pair and I'll replace my 135's
Regarding HDMI and audio it really is that bad IMO. I have had heard many high end processors driven by HDMI with good analogue in they sound better..... Even Meridian say openly that combining picture and signal on the same cable is a disaster. The HD621 solves this for them.
It's great for picture, a real nightmare to avoid jitter and problems for audio. All I have heard in may system sounded awful.
I agree with point 1, I use the AV2 as a 6 channel preamp, if there was a high end one of these I would be very happy
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by zorba
Cheers IWC,
I was just replying with my limited knowledge for good conversation and in excitement that there could be something.
At least the AV2 survived a few years to go for 1/3 of its price and not a few months. I bet it would still have gone for more if it were not discontinued.
Just another idea to expand from your quote above;
"They would be far better considering a BR player with analogue out IMO"
Also my quote;
"It is time if one were to be produced that it could deliver the goods in stereo to a level that would satisfy most in music replay - the question is what level and how much?"
As you are talking about a quality audio signal if a BR player were produced but more for people with existing sources such as CD5XS/CDX2 and above, when I mention at what level and what cost - would it not be great if all the naim pre and integrated range could have some upgrade option to have multi channel inputs in the same way as the AV2 has that would allow whatever source you have to process the audio this would then accomodate all levels of performance and cost.
I know it is not what we want and not an AV3 but if it were available would we not be happy to some extent and it keeps everyone with a real preamp that does both stereo and av?
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
I think the best solution for HD audio and BR reproduction is a high end BR player with analogue out. I have experimented with my Arcam AV8, and AV888 and I find the AV2 to be the best for spdif in dealing with the 'lower' quality DTS track.
The AV2 is very good in my opinion processing the digital signal from a BR player feeding the DTS track (much higher quality DTS than DVD) But, not withstanding the 3800 is a great transport (if noisy) the sound from the 3800 into the AV2 via 6 analogue outs from the Denon is 95% of the time much better. I often check to see how good the DTS track is processed by naim vs the 'other' as not all are HD DTS or HM master audio etc processed in the Denon player
If Naim could produce a BR player that did high end processing in the player and fed an AV2 analogue in I would be very happy
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by Geoff P
quote:
I guess you have a fair number of SACDs/ DVD-As which is another factor. The handful of these I own sound pretty good but I wouldn't change my system to get the best out of them (any recommendations for good ones please?)
Tony
There are a lot of discs out there now and they range from mediocre to excellent. Then there is the question as to whether you enjoy music listening in multichannel or only stereo. Then also the sort of music you want to listen to is a factor.
SACD is used quite pervasively for classical music offered with a CD layer and at least a stereo DS layer and oft times a multichannel. It also has the advantage that there is no need for a video interface to run the disk unlike DVD-A. For Jazz and some blues look at the Telarc catalogue. They seem to be consistently well engineered. Then of course you can get the Who's Toomy and Elton's Yellow Brick Road on SACD. Sony released all the Rolling Stones on SACD but did it very quietly by emphasising that they were CD playable discs. There is also a multichannel version of Dark Side of the Moon on SACD.
DVD-A seems more spread across genres with quite a lot of famous older pop recordings by the likes of the Doors, Beach Boys, Eagles, Jeff Beck, Fleetwood Mac etc featuring, but there are a lot of other artists available. DVD-A is more complex because of the bit rate choices. For example Steely Dan, who are known for wanting audio quality, released 'Everything Must Go' on DVD-A with a 192/24 stereo layer included which is really excellent. DVD-A is somehow more tricked out for multichannel in terms of odd sound steering whereas SACD tends to be engineered more to use the rear channels for ambience.
Then an unsung but interesting diversion is a smaller library of music disks in DTS which in spite of the compressed nature of the signal often sound damn good and play in a standard DVD player as do DVD-A. For example I have Joe Cocker's 'Night Calls' and Sheryl Crow's 'Globe Sessions' (which is in DTS ES 6.1) and both are favorites. Lot of older stuff like the Moody Blues, Wings, Sting, The Police, Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' also isssued on DTS discs.
Hope that helps.
regards
geoff
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by Geoff P
quote:
Regarding HDMI and audio it really is that bad IMO. I have had heard many high end processors driven by HDMI with good analogue in they sound better..... Even Meridian say openly that combining picture and signal on the same cable is a disaster.
2) As I mentioned earlier Denon has done what they can to get good audio out of HDMI see this remark referring to my Denon Kit:
For BR HD audio and video the BD player uses HDMI but provides one HDMI out which can be switched to digital Audio bitstream only and a second programmable for Video only. THe Denon Link to the A/V receiver is then used to sync the player and receiver and use the clock in the receiver to control both.
...also the way I use it the Video out is plumbed into a projector direct so not passing through the A/V receiver. This is audibly better than I have heard before. I shall heve to compare it to using the analog out's one day.
I use Naim amplification where I can. The front main channels go thru' a 552 /500 ( unity gain NOT used so the 552 processes the signal ). I also plumb the rear L & R into the power amp of a Nait 5 using a 4 pin Din I made up to get the signal in. Its in the amplification that I find that most of the 'Naim' effect seems to occur.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
Geoff,
I assume you are using an A1UD ?
If so I do urge you to wire up the analogue out as I am 99% sure this will be better in your set up. I have a good friend with an A1UD and an arcam AV888, he uses analogue in over HDMI in as it is noteably more natural and tonally richer.
Posted on: 24 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
Just found your earlier thread, do yep you do.
The DAC's in the A1 are good, so even if the denon link removes HDMI problems you still might prefer analogue in.
With your set up, I would buy an AV2 and a few Niam power amps
Posted on: 25 July 2010 by tonym
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Its in the amplification that I find that most of the 'Naim' effect seems to occur.
regards
Geoff
I agree Geoff, but having Naim speakers (not sure what you use for surround) & the AV2 is a significant factor too. When I've tried to insert another processor, and I've tried them from the likes of Arcam, Denon & Yamaha, I do notice a significant change in the sound quality, to my ears for the worse.
Thanks for your suggestions re. DVD-A/SACD. I do enjoy multichannel music when it's done in a subtle way - the best I've heard so far is Porcupine Tree's "Lightbulb Sun" on DVD-A. I've got no classical stuff so I might invest in one or two at some stage.
I do find DVD-A a fag though. Having a projector rather than a conventional TV makes it even more
of a nuisance. My Oppo player does allow you to switch to different formats on the disk using the remote but for some reason this doesn't work with all of the DVD-As I've got.
The Moddy Blues hybrid SACD disks are also pretty good, surprisingly on both SACD and CD sections.
Posted on: 25 July 2010 by Dungassin
quote:
The Moddy Blues
Posted on: 25 July 2010 by tonym
OK, so I was a mod!
Posted on: 25 July 2010 by Dungassin
quote:
OK, so I was a mod!
I was one of the other lot - leather jacket etc.
Posted on: 25 July 2010 by tonym
Fancy a punch-up? See you in Margate! Just give me a minute or two to dose up on the anti-arthritis pills...
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by zorba
quote:
would it not be great if all the naim pre and integrated range could have some upgrade option to have multi channel inputs in the same way as the AV2 has that would allow whatever source you have to process the audio this would then accomodate all levels of performance and cost.
Sorry all for the plonker quote above.
In my rush to get my point across I did not stop to think about all the speaker pre outs needed. Other manufacturers such as Arcam and Densen offer a multi channel input upgrade to their integrated amps which was incorporated into their design from the beginning.
Sorry.
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by Occean
I am following this post with great interest and curiosity, my stereo system is not as high end as some other forum members, but it forms part of my AV system and integrates perfectly – OPPO SE/Snait/AV2/175 with Spendor S5e/C5e/SR5
For me the setup is perfect. Speakers matched all round, bass management off, similar level amplification all round, Bluray decoding done very well onboard.
What I am struggling to grasp is what an *AV3* would add for me. Bluray is the only HD source currently and the OPPO 83 SE does really quite a fantastic job. I am not a fan of bass management, the last thing I want is a -3bd drop on my main bass channel for some additional bass shifted form the rears or centre. OK I would admit that there is a tiny niggle at the back of my mind wanting a Naim piece of kit to do my HD decoding, but I am sure it’s a £4k niggle that I am sure an AV3 would be.
Surely with the right source the AV2 is of high enough quality to add to any forum members system.
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by tonym
quote:
Originally posted by Occean:
What I am struggling to grasp is what an *AV3* would add for me.
Do you know, I'm starting to wonder this myself!
I guess more flexible bass management would be handy, although for reasons I think we've dicussed on here before in practical terms the fixed 80 Hz crossover of the Oppo is just fine.
I've just bought a new Lumagen Luminance video processor which does a splendid job of switching video and audio so I'm not interested in routing video through an AV3.
My next move might well be to send off my Oppo for the SE upgrade but I'm not sure what improvement that will bring - can't find any references to an A-B comparison.
Don't suppose you fancy a trip to Suffolk Occean?
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by zorba
The AV2 has been discontinued so an AV3 is needed
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by Occean
quote:
Originally posted by zorba:
The AV2 has been discontinued so an AV3 is needed
Yes this is exactly what I was thinking as I was typing my post.
Just with the introduction of HDMI is becomes a very different product - AV2 was an audio only product and the AV3 would need to be Audio and Visual - really quite different. Interesting times.
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by Dungassin
quote:
Originally posted by tonym:
Fancy a punch-up? See you in Margate! Just give me a minute or two to dose up on the anti-arthritis pills...
Never was one of those pillocks who went out looking for trouble. Never owned a motorbike either.
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by Geoff P
IWC
Thanks for the suggestion I will probably try the analog outputs when I feel like crawling round the back and doing the necessary plumbing.
Tony
You maybe right particularly about synergy with Naim speakers which I have never had because they don't work well in my room ( too many window sills for wall placement).
I witnessed the early days of AV2 firmware that didn't work. I then was privy to the DVD5 saga and the unkept promises of add ons such as a scaler and DVD-A & SACD processing that never materialised, and then finally the NVi. Not exactly encouraging. for a possible AV3 to blossom from I am afraid.
I realise that the AV2 is perhaps the one worth persevering with but the money has been spent in other directions to acheive the same so there we are. Denon are not Naim but really pretty good at processing neverthless and I can still use naim amps.
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
Just for the record I have had a fair bit of kit at home for the cinema set up and have used the following power amps in comparison to 135's
Nad M25
Arcam P7 (bi amping)
Arcam P1
Usher R1-5
Naim 250
I have also auditioned a lot of other kit not at home, Bryston, Levinson, Anthem, ADA, Meridian etc
I have tried very hard to look at HDMI processors. They just don't cut it for me. I am now in a position where I don't think another processor to the AV2 will exceed it's performance as a 6 channel pre-amp (It's a shame Naim didn't offer a power supply upgrade)
I could upgrade from biamped 135's but replacing 7x135's with perhaps 4 x 300's is a lot of money, 4 x 500 even more (sticking with Naim) Krell ? Levinson ? I have never been convinced.
So the only place to go is the good old source. I would love to try the UD9004 at home. It's worth reading the Dec 2009 HiFi News, quite a lot of changes from the A1UD for analogue out. This is where the marantz is focussed. I had the A1UD at home for a few days, good but not worth spending £4.5k on for the upgrade over the 3800 in my set up
A UD9004, AV2 and good quality amps and speaker set up might be a formidable set up.
To be honest I have not heard many set ups to rival a 3800/AV2/7 x 135's Sonus Faber Extrema/Cremona/Elector amator/gravis using an 8033 sub equalisation system.
Posted on: 26 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
Re reading the HiFi news article the A1/9004 differences are the focus the A1 is all about low jitter HDMI transmission. the 9004 is all about analogue out with bespoke power supply with custom electrolytics and four separate PCB's for the 7.1 set up.
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by munch:
Geoff,
A great read as always man.
There is a 3 on its way and its special.
It wont be cheap but its going to be bloody good.
They are not just sitting back at HQ they have been on this for the last few years.
Its clever stuff and its got a Edge over the others this time.
Stu
Thats interesting because I heard of a dealer there will be NO new av products from Naim because they still have loads of Nvi's in the factory and the Nvi is the biggest disaster in Naim's history.
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by tonym
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
quote:
Originally posted by munch:
Geoff,
A great read as always man.
There is a 3 on its way and its special.
It wont be cheap but its going to be bloody good.
They are not just sitting back at HQ they have been on this for the last few years.
Its clever stuff and its got a Edge over the others this time.
Stu
Thats interesting because I heard of a dealer there will be NO new av products from Naim because they still have loads of Nvi's in the factory and the Nvi is the biggest disaster in Naim's history.
Sorry, that's nonsense from a commercial point of view. Companies often make wrong decisions about what to make and the last thing you do in those circumstances is just give up, unless there's no market for that type of product.
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Thats interesting because I heard of a dealer there will be NO new av products from Naim because they still have loads of Nvi's in the factory and the Nvi is the biggest disaster in Naim's history.
Can I respectfully suggest that your dealer is very much misinformed on this one ... we have *NO* n-Vi's in new stock at all (I know as I was looking to see if we had any today).
Phil