Is This Why An AV3 Maybe A Non Starter ?

Posted by: Neill Ferguson on 17 April 2010

I seen this on another forum and it may interest some of you I have copied and pasted if that's against the rules then I apologise just now I thought it was well written and an interesting point:

Hi Guys,

This is an interesting subject and whilst I feel a little maligned at some other comments I'll try and give a neutral response.

A modern AV processor is an incredibly complicated unit. It needs to handle switching of audio and video in both the analogue and digital domains. It needs to provide powerful DSP to decode and process these signals. It also needs to convert digital signals back to analogue and apply volume control.

On top of this many companies complicate things even further by attempting to build vdeo processing in to their products.

In the past it was possible for smaller companies to offer products in this sector because they could do analogue very well, there were very limited digital requirements and royalties for features like Dolby Pro Logic were managable. In the digital area it is important to remember that SPDIF is an almost 30 year old technology now so it is a long time since there was a lot of complicated development in this area. There were no fancy auto setup options or other complications.

This situation pretty much lasted up until about 4 or 5 years ago. I have a Pioneer 2011 receiver in my home that I purchased in 2004. This unit supports DD, DTS, has a number of decoding/dsp options, rudimentary auto setup and analogue only video switching with no video processing. Although for all that, the unit plays back DTS tracks 7dB lower in the left front channel than the right and I never saw that in any review at the time...

The change coincided with the appearance of HDMI. Suddenly the whole comfortable paradigm of producing these devices changed and you had this combined audio and video interface with a horrible protection scheme. Suddenly the digital design element became orders of magnitude more complex and since that really defined your device - more important.

As we all know, the first HDMI devices were grossly unreliable. HDCP caused no end of problems but the interfaces were rampant with bugs in the audio and video. I am certain that a number of companies at that time took one look at decided not to touch it until the problems were all sorted. Mutliple HDMI revs later we still have a ton of problems with HDCP but at least the gross errors seem to be pretty well worked out.

On top of this you were faced with another problem if you unwisely decided to do video processing at this time. A number of companies started to use the HQV Realta chip in their devices. This massively expensive part promises awesome performance but working with it was a nightmare beyond belief. Even buying this in on an Silicon Optix platform did not isolate at all from the software development requirement. The API for this piece was massive and impregnable and support was supplied by only a small team who ultimately relied on one Russian genius to explain the intricacies of how it worked. One of the companies we worked with tried using Realta to make a dedicated VP device. Even with a large team of PHD level engineers working only on the video side for 20 months they couldn't get performance to match what the device is capable of and programming difficulty was the single root cause. One of the biggest differences between Realta and Reon is that Reon actually has a decent interface for the engineers!

The final nail in the cofin for small companies was the emergence of sophisticated auto setup routines like YPAO, MCACC or third party solutions like Audyssey.

A small company can't afford the level of investment and long term research to develop such a system themselves but building in a unit like Audyssey requires ever more powerful DSPs to be employed and a per unit license fee that must be paid.

So you arrive at the situation we are at now, the development complexity is several orders of magnitude beyond where we were even 5 years ago. This brings commensurate increase in non recurring engineering costs especially in digital design, software development and product testing. Finally your design now includes a huge amount of SMT devices, multi layer circuit boards and more all of which wraps up to a massively complex build that means you have to start using contract manufacturers who never match the quality promises they give in the bid stage.

All of this comes at a time of economic uncertainty and falling retail prices driven by the aggressive developments from the far eastern companies.

So you have a huge risk in you NRE costs, falling margins, reliance on third party manufacturing and the voracious appetite of Joe public for new badges on the front panel regardless on sound performance improvements.

In the face of this it is pretty hard to see why any responsible CFO would sanction the development of an HD ready AV processor. We have already seen one venerable British company risk it all on HDMI devices and they are now on their knees with no obvious escape route.

The rest have looked at other areas where those NRE and licensing costs are much less and profit margins have not been eroded. That means relatively high end music systems and is a trend that can be seen easily by looking at their product lines.

Just my thoughts of course.
__________________
Neil Davidson
Genesis Technologies
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Thats interesting because I heard of a dealer there will be NO new av products from Naim because they still have loads of Nvi's in the factory and the Nvi is the biggest disaster in Naim's history.


Can I respectfully suggest that your dealer is very much misinformed on this one ... we have *NO* n-Vi's in new stock at all (I know as I was looking to see if we had any today).

Phil


Might not be new in the box but plenty failed units.

Can you confirm then if an AV3 is being developed ?
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by tonym:
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
quote:
Originally posted by munch:
Geoff,
A great read as always man.
There is a 3 on its way and its special.
It wont be cheap but its going to be bloody good. Smile
They are not just sitting back at HQ they have been on this for the last few years.
Its clever stuff and its got a Edge over the others this time.
Stu


Thats interesting because I heard of a dealer there will be NO new av products from Naim because they still have loads of Nvi's in the factory and the Nvi is the biggest disaster in Naim's history.


Sorry, that's nonsense from a commercial point of view. Companies often make wrong decisions about what to make and the last thing you do in those circumstances is just give up, unless there's no market for that type of product.


The product cost a fortune due to being launched with many software faults loads of recalls and units swapped over. There is no market for an NVI.
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by tonym
We were discussing an AV3, not an NVi.

There's a definite market out there for multichannel processors that have good sound quality.
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Might not be new in the box but plenty failed units.


*chuckle* I don't know how many units your dealer thinks we have but even "failed" units in service (my next port of call) were in single figures so I don't think that's bad given that we're the manufacturer ...

quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Can you confirm then if an AV3 is being developed ?


You should know that I cannot comment on anything that there hasn't been an official announcement on ... sorry.

Phil
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Dungassin
quote:
Phil is there still Marmite on the tables in the rest room?

Only if the lazy buggers haven't wiped it off ...

Big Grin

I love Marmite, BTW. Much better than that Aussie copy ...
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Richard Dane
Stu, I'm hoping that when you say "rest room" you mean the canteen. Otherwise it might be considered by our American friends as an eccentricity gone too far...

Errmm.. what's this got to do with AV processors??
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by munch:
Phil is there still Marmite on the tables in the rest room? Big Grin
Stu


I trust by "rest room" you mean the canteen and in that case yes, Marmite and Marmalade... Big Grin

...after all, given what the Americans refer to as a "rest room" then Marmite on the tables could mean something very different. Winker

Phil
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
Will Naim confirm or not an AV3 being a possibility ?

I don't see it happening. I wish it would, but I simply don't see it.

If they are planning, please please please stick to audio only and any video in another box.
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by Phil Harris
I'm really sorry but unless there is an official announcement on a product then no-one from Naim (other than Paul Stephenson) can comment here upon what Naim may or may not be working on ... I'm sure you can understand.

Phil
Posted on: 27 July 2010 by karyboue
And what about an AVnet ?
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by tonym
Sophisticated room-equalisation software on board. Now that'd be something very worthwhile.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by zorba
quote:
Originally posted by IWC Doppel:

If they are planning, please please please stick to audio only and any video in another box.


You never know looking at all the new uniti boxes we may get;

a bluray version of the UnitiServe
an audio only version of the UnitiQute
a video only version of the UnityQute
an audio/video version of the NaimUniti - aka AV3

Do I wake up now?
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Geoff P
Boy you guys are smoking pot Big Grin

It would be nice if we could have all that in shoebox size cases but I doubt....sorry.

quote:
Re reading the HiFi news article the A1/9004 differences are the focus the A1 is all about low jitter HDMI transmission. the 9004 is all about analogue out with bespoke power supply with custom electrolytics and four separate PCB's for the 7.1 set up.
Yep...the A1UD pretty much assumes you are going to link it by HDMI to an A/V receiver for audio and direct to a display for picture ( known as AV pure direct ), if you want the best audio. They also dangle the carrot for improved jitter with their own A/V receivers.

Actually as far as I can tell after ploughing thru' all the menus on the A1UD there is no proper option to do speaker defenition, setup and bass management even if you use component out with no HDMI connection.

BTW. I came by mine 2nd hand from a guy who was selling it to fund purchase of a Klimax DS. I only had to pay 2K GBP for it even though it was only 4 months old.

regards
Geoff
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by tonym:
We were discussing an AV3, not an NVi.

There's a definite market out there for multichannel processors that have good sound quality.


Agreed.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
I'm really sorry but unless there is an official announcement on a product then no-one from Naim (other than Paul Stephenson) can comment here upon what Naim may or may not be working on ... I'm sure you can understand.

Phil


Phil

Can we try this in reverse ? does Naim have any future in AV ?
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Phil

Can we try this in reverse ? does Naim have any future in AV ?


Please Neil - don't ask me to give you information that you know I am not at liberty to give out. It just frustrates you because you ask me several times and means that I then have to be much more guarded about anything that I may say on here...

Cheers

Phil
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Neill Ferguson
quote:
Originally posted by Phil Harris:
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Phil

Can we try this in reverse ? does Naim have any future in AV ?


Please Neil - don't ask me to give you information that you know I am not at liberty to give out. It just frustrates you because you ask me several times and means that I then have to be much more guarded about anything that I may say on here...

Cheers

Phil


Phil

Its understandably but you have to understand most of us on here are av2 fans and bought av2's and dvd5's and hoped for new products however as the current website shows there is a real lack of development with the av range. Can I ask Phil since you have taken the trouble to reply if it is possible you could ask the guys at Naim if they could at least throw the many forum members a bit of information I'm sure most would agree that it would be greatly welcomed.

Neill

Ps its all most of us are asking for this has been going on now for the best part of three years.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by Neill Ferguson:
Phil

Its understandably but you have to understand most of us on here are av2 fans and bought av2's and dvd5's and hoped for new products however as the current website shows there is a real lack of development with the av range. Can I ask Phil since you have taken the trouble to reply if it is possible you could ask the guys at Naim if they could at least throw the many forum members a bit of information I'm sure most would agree that it would be greatly welcomed.

Neill

Ps its all most of us are asking for this has been going on now for the best part of three years.


Hi Neill,

Again you're asking for the same information but just in a different way ... I know what you're asking for and I know how long you've been asking but - just for completeness - can I simply state once more that unless there has been an official publicity release on a product then *NO-ONE* is at liberty to discuss anything regarding products that may be in development at Naim.

The Naim website shows absolutely nothing of what is in development here - only of published products - and so is no indication of what is being worked on.

I'm sorry that this is not what you want to hear but that is all I can tell you - casually "throwing out a bit of information to the forum members" as you request would in itself be a very bad mistake because it would then create a huge feeding frenzy of debate and has done before.

Thanks

Phil
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by David Dever
Put another way–a public response of "no, we will NEVER re-enter the AV product space" has not been issued.
Posted on: 28 July 2010 by IWC Doppel
David,

I have to agree with this being highly likely in the short term.

The list of current AV products still sold is getting ever smaller.

If I were naim and I was not looking to develop new AV in the short term I would reverse out slowly not to disappoint customers who have invested in naim AV.

If this is not the case I would be making positive noises to demonstrate commitment and keep avoid losing any customers looking elsewhere
Posted on: 05 August 2010 by Frank Abela
'Never' is a long time. Why corner yourself and then put yourself up for ridicule in 10 years when long memories say 'oh you said...'?
Posted on: 06 August 2010 by IWC Doppel
Steve,

The Dec 2009 HiFi News has a comprehensive review. It has separate boards four from memory to cover the analogue out sections. Improved power supplies and isolation over the A1UD.

The Denon is digitally focussed the Marantz analogue out focussed.

Let me know if you need any more detail

Cool

Woops, this might be out of date I responded to an early mail !

PS Steve did you ever buy a 9004 ?
Posted on: 12 August 2010 by zorba
It may have been asked before but I can't seem to find good reference for it, regarding the AV2 was the preamplifier designed specifically for it or was it taken from one of the other Naim components? Which one?

Can anyone confirm that the AV2 has lip sync adjustment? I presume it has but could not find it in the manual.
Posted on: 12 August 2010 by Occean
The AV2 does have lip sync adjustment (may be only on newer firmware) - download the latest manual online
Posted on: 12 August 2010 by zorba
thanks