Is This Why An AV3 Maybe A Non Starter ?

Posted by: Neill Ferguson on 17 April 2010

I seen this on another forum and it may interest some of you I have copied and pasted if that's against the rules then I apologise just now I thought it was well written and an interesting point:

Hi Guys,

This is an interesting subject and whilst I feel a little maligned at some other comments I'll try and give a neutral response.

A modern AV processor is an incredibly complicated unit. It needs to handle switching of audio and video in both the analogue and digital domains. It needs to provide powerful DSP to decode and process these signals. It also needs to convert digital signals back to analogue and apply volume control.

On top of this many companies complicate things even further by attempting to build vdeo processing in to their products.

In the past it was possible for smaller companies to offer products in this sector because they could do analogue very well, there were very limited digital requirements and royalties for features like Dolby Pro Logic were managable. In the digital area it is important to remember that SPDIF is an almost 30 year old technology now so it is a long time since there was a lot of complicated development in this area. There were no fancy auto setup options or other complications.

This situation pretty much lasted up until about 4 or 5 years ago. I have a Pioneer 2011 receiver in my home that I purchased in 2004. This unit supports DD, DTS, has a number of decoding/dsp options, rudimentary auto setup and analogue only video switching with no video processing. Although for all that, the unit plays back DTS tracks 7dB lower in the left front channel than the right and I never saw that in any review at the time...

The change coincided with the appearance of HDMI. Suddenly the whole comfortable paradigm of producing these devices changed and you had this combined audio and video interface with a horrible protection scheme. Suddenly the digital design element became orders of magnitude more complex and since that really defined your device - more important.

As we all know, the first HDMI devices were grossly unreliable. HDCP caused no end of problems but the interfaces were rampant with bugs in the audio and video. I am certain that a number of companies at that time took one look at decided not to touch it until the problems were all sorted. Mutliple HDMI revs later we still have a ton of problems with HDCP but at least the gross errors seem to be pretty well worked out.

On top of this you were faced with another problem if you unwisely decided to do video processing at this time. A number of companies started to use the HQV Realta chip in their devices. This massively expensive part promises awesome performance but working with it was a nightmare beyond belief. Even buying this in on an Silicon Optix platform did not isolate at all from the software development requirement. The API for this piece was massive and impregnable and support was supplied by only a small team who ultimately relied on one Russian genius to explain the intricacies of how it worked. One of the companies we worked with tried using Realta to make a dedicated VP device. Even with a large team of PHD level engineers working only on the video side for 20 months they couldn't get performance to match what the device is capable of and programming difficulty was the single root cause. One of the biggest differences between Realta and Reon is that Reon actually has a decent interface for the engineers!

The final nail in the cofin for small companies was the emergence of sophisticated auto setup routines like YPAO, MCACC or third party solutions like Audyssey.

A small company can't afford the level of investment and long term research to develop such a system themselves but building in a unit like Audyssey requires ever more powerful DSPs to be employed and a per unit license fee that must be paid.

So you arrive at the situation we are at now, the development complexity is several orders of magnitude beyond where we were even 5 years ago. This brings commensurate increase in non recurring engineering costs especially in digital design, software development and product testing. Finally your design now includes a huge amount of SMT devices, multi layer circuit boards and more all of which wraps up to a massively complex build that means you have to start using contract manufacturers who never match the quality promises they give in the bid stage.

All of this comes at a time of economic uncertainty and falling retail prices driven by the aggressive developments from the far eastern companies.

So you have a huge risk in you NRE costs, falling margins, reliance on third party manufacturing and the voracious appetite of Joe public for new badges on the front panel regardless on sound performance improvements.

In the face of this it is pretty hard to see why any responsible CFO would sanction the development of an HD ready AV processor. We have already seen one venerable British company risk it all on HDMI devices and they are now on their knees with no obvious escape route.

The rest have looked at other areas where those NRE and licensing costs are much less and profit margins have not been eroded. That means relatively high end music systems and is a trend that can be seen easily by looking at their product lines.

Just my thoughts of course.
__________________
Neil Davidson
Genesis Technologies
Posted on: 12 August 2010 by GreenAlex
Instead of an AV3 (although it would be very intriguing), maybe Naim will enhance their new streaming series to support video formats?

Streaming your movies would sound like a logical next step to me. Especially with more and more people downloading videos from online rental stores and given that more and more people have the disc space to store DVDs.

That would be a product I could really get into. If I can afford it Smile

But of course an AV3 would also be appreciated. Though I cannot say that I personally feel the need to part from my AV2. Still love it!
Posted on: 12 August 2010 by karyboue
Just found that GefenTV Home Theater Audio Processor : http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5277

1 HDMI input to 2 HDMI outputs (3D pass-trough) + HD sound decoded to 5.1 analog output !

$899 to make the AV2...HD "compliant" but what about the quality ???
Posted on: 14 August 2010 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by karyboue:
Just found that GefenTV Home Theater Audio Processor : http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5277

1 HDMI input to 2 HDMI outputs (3D pass-trough) + HD sound decoded to 5.1 analog output !

$899 to make the AV2...HD "compliant" but what about the quality ???


Hmmm ... so it decodes Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA but only outputs them as 5.1 audio analogue feeds or AC-3 on S/PDIF. Isn't that defeating the point a bit given that they're assumed to be 7.1 channel formats?

Phil
Posted on: 14 August 2010 by IWC Doppel
I'm sure it will work, but I am far less sure about the audio quality. Why would you not buy a player with good quality analogue out ?
Posted on: 17 August 2010 by zorba
Any news yet? Please someone spill the beans.

I'm visiting England next week and after many years here without a Naim I was hoping to go for a NaitXS but have been thinking about pushing toward the SuperNait to gain access to a Naim Dac which will also make me audition the Uniti as a complete stereo solution.

If an AV3 does arrive no doubt it will have its own Dacs and the extra money spent on the Uniti or SNait could have been put toward the AV3 and I not be left with capabilities not needed that have been paid for.

It may even have an equal or better pre than the XS and then I could have put all my money toward the AV3 as no doubt it will be expensive kit, even then I am not saying I will buy one as it depends how expensive.

I know I am not alone even more frustrating for people that have spent serious money on their AV and looking to upgrade within Naim.

A few beans fell out of the tin a few posts back I was hoping that someone might spill all the beans.
Posted on: 17 August 2010 by GreenAlex
Phil, I am aware and respect that you cannot comment on new products or products you are checking for viability.

But I hope this is not considered a secret:
Are there any plans on new software for the DVD5 or AV2?
Especially the DVD5 would benefit from a small software update that finally provides a random or shuffle mode.

@zorba:
I doubt you will get any new answers to your question. Unless Naim in the person of Paul Stephenson suddenly decide to announce something. Which I really doubt.

I understand your predicament, but there really is nothing anyone can do.
Have you considered buying an AV2 for now?
Posted on: 17 August 2010 by zorba
@GreenAlex

There are 2 at the moment that are niggling me to bid on.

I have never demoed an AV2 and would be making a decision that would be blind for me and only based on the very much respected views and info of actual owners within this forum.

Also I am a little worried that they are 7+ years old.
Posted on: 17 August 2010 by IWC Doppel
The AV2 is a good unit sonically, but it is a little 'unfinished' I find the volume wheel 'clicks' as you move the volume for example.

I would be very, very surprised if we see an AV3 to be honest
Posted on: 17 August 2010 by GreenAlex
I heardly hear the volume click. That is of course if the subwoofers are turned off.
Iff the subwoofers are turned on, the clicking and the input switching or muting is far louder.

Also, if you exceed a volume setting of 49, i.e. 50+, the noise level will increase. Up until 49 the noise from the speakers is only mild but jumps a notch when you exceed 49.

Nevertheless, if the AV2 is updated to the current software version, I feel it is a great AV-preamp and also a very good stereo preamp.
Though I cannot really cmment on how well it would compare to a Supernait or nDAC.

Unfortunately mine is one software version behind, which means BassMix doesn't work. But dealer's are not allowed to do it themselves, nor costumers, and I don't want to part with mine for a week or two Frown
Posted on: 18 August 2010 by zorba
quote:
Originally posted by IWC Doppel:
I would be very, very surprised if we see an AV3 to be honest


I was hoping that there might be some truth in this quote a few posts back;

Originally posted by munch:
Geoff,
A great read as always man.
There is a 3 on its way and its special.
It wont be cheap but its going to be bloody good.
They are not just sitting back at HQ they have been on this for the last few years.
Its clever stuff and its got a Edge over the others this time.
Stu

munch's crystal ball has given us good results in the past.
Posted on: 18 August 2010 by GreenAlex
I wouldn't mind if that were true Smile

Except for the "It won't be cheap" part Big Grin