XLD ?

It will continue to go in circles as long as this sort of thing is brought up. There is no question that I get better rips with with DBpoweramp on MY computer(s). Your results may vary. Sorry but I don't use specs or other's ears for my comparisons. Blind testing has been done.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
It will continue to go in circles as long as this sort of thing is brought up. There is no question that I get better rips with with DBpoweramp on MY computer(s). Your results may vary. Sorry but I don't use specs or other's ears for my comparisons. Blind testing has been done.

When blind testing your ears can be deceived ...

If you take the digital output of a (correctly make) iTunes rip, and a dbPowerAmp (or EAC or XLD or ANY OTHER ripper) and invert one, sum them in a digital workstation, then the output will be nul. It's a fact - it's been proven. There is no possible way for the DAC to know which rip is which, therefore there is no way that the output can vary BECAUSE OF DIFFERENCES IN THE RIP. It has nothing to do with specs - it's scientific fact.

The only "proof" that there is any variation is based on blind testing, which has been shown to be fallible.

Eloise

P.S. I'm not saying that in certain circumstances the rip from dbPowerAmp, EAC, XLD, etc can't be better than from iTunes, but if the CD is good then the rip will be the same.

Did blind only because I was requested too and multiple trys with same result. Seems you can't please anyone regardless of what you do. I also use Wavelab which was used in the test you descibe for both an additional rip and comparing the files but wont comment on it at this point other than to say it's a great bit of code and it was analog waveform that was compared, not bits. There is also no refference to setting offset which negates what EAC does differently. Cache was also on. I'm not going further here. It's been discussed to the extreme. Facts change, even on this board. Believe what you like or stop by the shop and see what you think.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

No! but we all love you anyhow!

I am fussier about what was played than exactly how it was played ...

Thanks George.... we love you even more. You are the only poster I religiously read every post from. As a musician and bassist myself, I always enjoy your impressions.

Thanks again for all of the help, advice and sagacity over the last year and a half.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
Whats all this pre track info of which you speak?

On more than a few CDs, there is music before the track starts. Often you will see this in the form of a negative time on your CDP display. More often than not there is only silence there. But I have many CDs which have music there.

You will only know when you listen to a rip and wonder why the beginning of the song is different/missing.

Lastly, maybe you dont care to have the gaps represented as they are on the original CD, but I absolutely do. Call me strange if you must, but when I started ripping my collection in the first place, I strove to have an exact copy.

Back when I started ripping iTunes didn't offer any kind of gap detection in ripping, nor gapless playback.

Anyway.... suum cuique...

quote:

One other thing Patrick if you don't like being challenged don't post, and for gawd sakes don't have a dolly out the pram like munch. We are all adults here.

Sorry buddy, I will do a better job of thickening the skin. Challenge away.

quote:

If itunes has cached data how does that sound to non cached data?

In order for secure mode to work properly, every read request must cause the drive to seek data from the CD not a buffer.

I will anticipate the question of, why secure mode is important? Error free , bit-perfect rips.

You have failed to answer the question, how does it sound Patrick? How does buffered vs non buffered actually sound, what are the sound differences?

We have had this conversation about pre track before, I have never encountered one, admittedly my music collection is not as big as yours, one thing is probably certain, pre track music does nto sound like red book standard to me.

Good info here

Ripping

James

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
for general use there is no evidence that an iTunes rip is any less correct than EAC or XLD or any other method.

How is that possible in Burst mode? How is that possible when you cannot correct the drive offset?

I agree that if you set up EAC or XLD to match iTunes' settings, they will probably be the same.

But since you cannot setup iTunes to do a proper secure mode rip with offset correction, how could you compare the other way around?

I guarantee that a proper secure mode rip with EAC and a burst mode rip from iTunes will be different. Is the difference audible? I cannot answer that.

-p

quote:

Originally posted by js:
There is also no reference to setting offset which negates what EAC does differently. Cache was also on.

Exactly. You can make EAC rip as badly as iTunes then compare apple to apples. But you cant go the other way around. This "evidence" is worthless, since it is widely held that burst mode rips are drastically inferior...

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
You have failed to answer the question, how does it sound Patrick? How does buffered vs non buffered actually sound, what are the sound differences?

I dont know. It is simply required to make a bit-perfect rip. So the real question is: Can I hear a difference between a bit perfect rip and one that is not? Answer, I dont know. Maybe not. But if there is no real effort in making it so, why not make it as perfect as possible? Why leave it to chance simply because one really wants to use iTunes. Why does it have to be iTunes? I dont get it? I would use, and have used, anything out there. If someone told me there was something better (not simply equivalent) than EAC, i would use it.

quote:

We have had this conversation about pre track before, I have never encountered one, admittedly my music collection is not as big as yours, one thing is probably certain, pre track music does nto sound like red book standard to me.

It is absolutely red book standard. Read the spec.

I first found out about it when i ripped an SNFU album I had done in either iTunes or WMP. I had listened to this CD hundereds of times. When I listened to the rip the first time, there is a argument between a band and a club owner as a pregap track. But it wasn't there on the rip!!! Strange I thought and busted out the CD to see if I was imagining something. Nope, it was clearly on the disc.

The second I ever noticed was Jimmy Smith's Root Down. This was another very early rip I did and I know it was done when I was using iTunes, as i ripped to WAV then. There is audience noise and Jimmy Smith asking the crowd to shut up before the first track. It was obviously missing when I listened to the rip.

Another instance was a Bela Fleck album (dont laugh.... as a bassist I love Vic Wooten), and another was Melt-Banana.

All of these were corrected when I re-ripped in EAC.

There are thousands of albums/tracks with pregap tracks. Thousands.

I dont know where they exist and dont want to have to search for them, nor do i want to lose the data b/c the ripper ignores them. So as a precaution, I obviously now rip with EAC so I dont lose anything whether it is there or not.

XLD handles this as well.

It is very common on live albums, classical, ambient works etc....

Luckily I found this out in my ripping infancy, although i still have some old rips I never did re-do (anything to WAV or Windows Lossless).

If you are not very familiar with your recordings you might never know.

Now this is the ultimate answer to "Can you hear a difference?".... Yes a huge one. There is music on the original disc that is not on the rip. A glaring omission.

Still want to use iTunes for no apparent reason other than blind allegiance?

What are you on about blind allegiance, this would imply I use apple for everything. INfact for almost 100% of my media replay, whether video, music or photos is done outside of apple as they are far to restrictive.

However itunes is just so damn easy. Insert cd, few minutes later it ejects and the disk is now loaded with detail and picture. Nothing else comes close. And believe me I am trying them as they appear.

The pre track info is an interesting one, your examples do not seem to demonstrate any missing music though

I didnt say you had a blind allegiance to Apple, merely iTunes, as a ripper.

I have tried everything as well. Here are the exact steps for ripping in EAC. It doesn't seem any more difficult to me.

Insert CD
Press F4 for it to determine/find any pregap tracks, and perfect gap detection.

Press F6 to start the rip.

It then asks where you want the rip to go. But obviously just like iTunes you can set it up to rip to a static location, the same everytime.

Insert CD then press two buttons. How is that too difficult?


Regarding the pregap tracks. They sometimes include music, sometimes a few lead up notes on a guitar, sometimes an entire track. In any case, and regardless of what the "info" is, it is on the original CD and I want it in my rip.

Lastly, iTunes can do one really nice thing I have not found others can do, de-emphasize, on the fly, a CD with pre-emphasis.

I have at least 30 CDs with pre-emphasis. Unfortunately it exists on some of the absolute finest pressings of certain legendary albums, e.g. Toto IV, Abbey Road, DSOTM, Thriller, Trick of the Tail, every decent early (80s) presing of Miles on CBS, etc.... and there are many, many more.

So if i know it has pre-emph, then I rip in iTunes to WAV, encode to FLAC and enjoy. Otherwise any CD with pre-emph will have to be listened to on a CD player. The rips sounds horrible.....

Consequently, if you had ripped a CD with Pre-emph then listened to the rip in any media player (iTunes and Foobar included), they sound tinny, thin and are unlistenable. There is a workaround for playback using the EQ in Foobar but id rather not go through the effort.

I originally ripped my Toto IV (CBS) in EAC with pre flags (i knew it had pre-emph), but I didnt know my rips would sound like crap. Then I couldn't find the original in the few boxes I looked in.

So I burned a disc, using the cue sheet EAC conveniently provides, then re-ripped it in iTunes, and voila... perfection.

iTunes is good for two things. Ripping pre-emph CDs and syncing my iPhone. STRONG!

Dear Patrick,

iTunes is kinda sweet for an old idiot like me!

It does not compromise the music, and is simple.

If I were from a different generation I might want more challlenge, but no, for some people iTunes is not only just good enough, but also all they will ever need to help them along the road to HD based music!

You made EAC sound as if driving it is so easy! Shame nothing like your succinct advice comes with the software!

ATB from George

George,

Yes i suppose it is similar to the fact that both infants and the blue hairs require the same type of care and effort. Ass wiping, feeding, changing clothes etc....

iTunes is not only for kids, but also for old people. Who knew??!?!



I hear you though.... and to quote Homer Simpson, "If something is to hard to do, then it's not worth doing." or "Trying is the first step towards failure."

but not as good as

"Don't worry. Being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep.... In a giant blender."

but back to being serious:
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"

-p

James

I briefly posted a while back on XLD v.s. iTunes. Likewise, I could not detect any difference between XLD and iTunes rips. Concluded that my CD's are in good condition and stopped worrying about it.

I also tried a variety of read offsets with XLD to see if this had any audible result in my system. Again I could hear no effect. This seems counter to the implication of the ripping link you posted - but I trust my ears more .

I like the XLD program and, as you suggest, will be used for problematic disks.

Cheers

Richard