I found Religion: My first audition of an LP12
Posted by: glevethan on 23 February 2004
Hello to all
I have made several posts about putting my old system back together centered around my old ProAc SuperTablettes and a recently purchased Nait5 and a CD5. Vinyl replay was to be handled by a Rega P3 and associated cartridge.
The performance of my Naim system has truly been an eye opener as my entire CD collection sounds unlike it has ever sounded before. Each time listening to music has truly been an eye opener. Enough said about the Naim gear as we all are aware of its capabilities.
My vinyl playback has been something else. I keep on hearing that Analogue playback "should" be superior to Digital, however quite frankly I have been tremendously disappointed! I have A/B'd the same record/CD and the P3 is not even in the same league as the CD5.
A trip back to the dealer was made and the following decks were placed side by side (all running through a Nait5): Rega P3-RegaP25-Linn LP12. The audition went as follows: P3: the same result as before; P25 I heard an improvement on the scale of 15-20%; LP12--a RELIGIOUS awakening- this turntable is playing a different ball game-in a different city- in a different country. Today is Monday and I auditioned on Saturday and the demo is STILL permanently etched in my brain. I CANNOT stop talking to everyone about the differences that I have heard. I realize that many on this forum are "already believers" in the capabilities of the Linn and I now add my name to the list.
The following has been ordered: a new LP12-an Ittok arm which my dealer has available-an Adikt cartridge-a Valhalla supply (which my dealer also has available).
I am contemplating a second audition to listen to a Lingo power supply to see how dramatic a difference will be made. If it is truly a SIGNIFICANT upgrade than I will probably contemplate acquiring it NOW rather than later.
Thanks to all for listening to this rant.
Gregg
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by seagull
If its power supplies then try a lingo2 (or try an Armageddon if you don't need 45 rpm).
I have heard LP12's with Lingo1, Lingo2 and Armageddon and the power supply does affect the LP12 as much as it does with Naim kit. The Lingo 2 is significantly better than a 1. I've not heard an A/B between a Lingo and a Geddon but others here have so they may help to confuse you further...
When my LP12 finally grows up it will have either a Lingo2 or a 'geddon
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by P
Congratulations! You obviously have a fine pair of ears.
Don't be too hasty on the Lingo. The Valhalla (if its OK) isn't that much worse than a Lingo but if you need 45 RPM then a Lingo is a must.
Happy Listening
P
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by domfjbrown
Hmm - interesting; either I'm very lucky (or unlucky depending on your viewpoint) or my CD5 is "broken", but though the CD5 has better frequency extremes, in my system (NAIT3/Rega Elas), my Planar 3/RB300/Ortofon 540 still outperforms my CD5/Flatcap quite substantially in the music terms... I wander if it's just me though. The CD5 is a good CD player mind you.
Woah - I bet that LP12 set you back a bit at new prices though...
__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Tim Jones
I'm similarly surprised that a P3 didn't not at least equal (and on a good day outclass) a CD5...
Wonder what the 'associated cartridge' was?
Tim
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by glevethan
The associated cartridge was a Rega Elys (Purple color). This cartridge was mounted on MY Rega P3 and on the subsequent P25 which I auditioned.
In regards to my future power supply my dealer is making available to me a very good condition Valhalla. If I were to decide to go with a Lingo it would be of the version 2 series as I would be purchasing a brand new one.
Yes the initial outlay is quite steep for a new LP12 ($2400+Ittock+Valhalla+Adikt cartridge) however I feel that it is worth it. The choice boils down to the following: keeping my P3 and NOT listening to my records; getting the LP12 and really getting EXCITED to listen to my records. Once again I found the difference to be that dramatic.
As an interesting sidenote my dealer stated the following (and my browsing on the web have unearthed similar statements): the most important thing is to start with the BEST foundation (ie the turntable)- after that the arm and the cartridge follow. This appears to be borne out in that the Adikt is only a $350 cartridge (not a multi thousand dollar one) and I was already blown away by the sound of this inexpensive cartridge. I guess the "foundation" really must be the most important part of the equation.
Cheers
Gregg
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by P:
Don't be too hasty on the Lingo. The Valhalla (if its OK) isn't that much worse than a Lingo but if you need 45 RPM then a Lingo is a must.
P
Pete I would disagree strongly - L1 is a great change, L2 way ahead of L1. IMO, of course, based on my journey along the Yellow Brick Road.
Regards
Mike
On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by blythe
quote:
Originally posted by mike lacey:
Pete I would disagree strongly - L1 is a great change, L2 way ahead of L1. IMO, of course, based on my journey along the Yellow Brick Road.
Regards
Mike
On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy
I'm with Mike on this one.
When I demoed the original Lingo, I did a blind test:
LP12, Basik, K9, Lingo
Vs
LP12, Ittok, K18, Valhalla
The LP12, Basik, K9, Lingo was much better.
I would not have believed that a Basik, K9, could ever outperform the Ittok K18 if I hadn't heard it for myself.
I bought the Lingo to go on the end of my Ittok K18 setup, replacing the Valhalla.
Martin.
Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by JeremyD
quote:
Originally posted by blythe:When I demoed the original Lingo, I did a blind test:
LP12, Basik, K9, Lingo
Vs
LP12, Ittok, K18, Valhalla
The LP12, Basik, K9, Lingo was much better.
I think my dem used 3x LP12/Basik Plus/K9 for a Valhalla v Lingo v (prototype?) Armageddon test. The Lingo was the clear winner. It was better than the Valhalla in every way. The Armageddon had a blacker [i.e. quieter] background than the Lingo and a more powerful bass. However, its speed stability seemed no better than the Valhalla's. I imagine those who find the Valhalla's speed stability acceptable
might have trouble choosing between a Lingo 1 and an Armageddon.
I demmed Lingo 2 v Lingo 1 last year. Unfortunately I was in an unreceptive mental state, so couldn't really say anything about the difference in emotional effect between teh two: my listening results were contradictory, which wasn't very useful. However, in identifiable musical respects the Lingo 2 was better on every record - it showed up failings in the Mk 1 that I had not even been aware of.
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by M. Brandstetter
Dear Gregg,
to give a grain of salt to the equation....
Have you haerd the LP12 with Prefix, or with
Stageline...or which phono-preamplifiaction
do you use?
If, so far, i understood it correct the Nai5 has no inbuild phonoamplifier.
So, LP12 with prefix must be nirvana....in
comparison with other turntables and stageline.
(At least the prefix price is around double
the stagL?)
Regards
-mb
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by MarkEJ
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
I have A/B'd the same record/CD and the P3 is not even in the same league as the CD5.
If, during your A/Bs, you were listening for "good sound" -- e.g. bass slam, furious dynamics, drama, shimmering treble, etc., you would have been disappointed. An entry-level turntable will often not even equal a CD5 when judged on these criteria, and neither of them will come near a live performance in sonic terms. But that would be missing the point. The argument that analogue is "better" is based not on these things, but on the resulting music's impact on your state of mind when exposed to it. Thus the question should not be "is the bass better?", nor "is the background noise lower?", but something like "how did this artist feel about the piece being played?", "can I hear the band grinning at each other? (and thereby causing me to grin empathetically)". These rather rarified parameters go close to the root of what keeps us playing music long after the initial thrill of a new system has disipated, and are notoriously tricky to nail down with an A/B, since it is very difficult to reset one's brain between A and B, to the state in which it started before A!
I suspect that you will find that your Rega's compromises are purely tonal, and that in terms of "good music" as opposed to "good sound", it gives very little away. Having said that, the LP12 will give you icing, cake and stand -- there is no downside.
Best;
Mark
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by glevethan
In a reply to some of the various questions: I did my demo via a Stageline and not a Prefix-I purchased the Stageline when I purchased my system last month.
During my A/B I came away with the following (remembering that I am new to this and not an "audiophile" in any way): I am beginning to understand the concept of "involving" and "engaging". With my CD5 I may sit down to listen to some music and read a magazine, however after 15 seconds I am forced to put my reading material down and just look up and "listen" to the music - it becomes all encompassing and involving and I am unable to do ANYTHING else BUT listen to the music! This was the same feeling that the LP12 conveyed to me. It had toe stomping rhythm which drew me in and did not let go - It had me dancing-bobbing and weaving.
On a more basic note I did notice differences (compared to the P3) in what was quoted here as "good sound": listening to Sam Cooke - his voice just sounded richer-fuller-more alive and more realistic. The Clash - Rudie Can't Fail-Train In Vain just sounded COMPLETELY different. On the P3 they were flat and lifeless- on the Linn the music came alive.
So in the end, yes, I heard the tonal differences between the two, vocals and instruments just "sounded" better, however I also heard the musical differences- INVOLVEMENT-ENGAGEMENT-rhythm and beat.
A final question: since I already appear to be undertaking a significant financial investment - LP12-Ittok-Adikt - should I just, as they say in the States "suck wind" and purchase a Lingo and not play around with the Valhalla? Or does it begin to become "overkill" assembling a highly spec'ed LP12 to mate with a relatively modest system of a Nait5-CD5-Stageline and ProAc SuperTablettes?
Thanks
Gregg
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Bob Edwards
Gregg--
One word: Armageddon.
At least try to audition the Armageddon vs. a Lingo 2. I've owned a Lingo 1, now own an Armageddon, and prefer the Geddon to the Lingo 2.
And putting an LP12 like yours into a Nait 5 is EMINENTLY sensible and is the best way to great music. (Source-first brigade rant OFF.)
Best,
Bob
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by P
This Lingo thing must be down to personal preference.
I had a 3 day home dem with a Lingo 2 just after I'd bought my new deck and wasn't convinced at all. I had the money and the shelf space at the time but it really didn't seem to do anything different to the Lingo 1.
Maybe I've a good Lingo 1. Maybe I'm deaf. Or Mental. Who knows.
My dealer did reinforce and concur with my opinion at the time though so who the hell was I to argue? Waste of money? His words.
Don't diss the CD5 BTW. It's a very capable player. Team it up with a half decent power supply (Supercap [or a good 3rd party alternative :-]) and you have something to rival a CDS2.
But not a good LP12.
P
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Markus
Gregg,
The demos i did of the original lingo when it first came out convinced me that it was a VERY WORTHWHILE upgrade. I have read a lot about the armageddon and lingo 2. From my experience with the original lingo I trust that those who say they are good are telling the truth.
IMHO, if you can afford a lingo 2 or armageddon, you will not be disappointed. Either one is a fantastic power supply. Who'd a thunk that a power supply for a turntable could make such a big difference?
After 13 years of owning my LP12 I am pondering an upgrade and if I could afford it, probably the lingo 2 would be my choice. I have lots of 45's and would love to be able to play them on my "big" deck.
IMHO you are not imagining things with the Linn. It really is a classic deck.
Markus
=======
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Not For Me
I can't remember?
Has anyone done a demo of a Weekes Lingo 1 vs Lingo 2
I have neard several contradictory reports about the benefits over Lingo 2 over 1, ranging from none to a religious transcendant experience. Makes me wonder how such divergent views develop on the same thing?
DS
ITC - Scissor Sisters - Comfortably Numb Deux remixes
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by P
quote:
(3) K-Boards -> Prefix (twice the dynamic tension, increased resolution and contrast) 15%
You forgot to add - "and at least twice the RFI if you live in a well populated region with a half established telecoms infrastructure"
Tsk
P
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Eric Barry
I don't think a Lingo will be wasted on your system, however, at its price, you might consider other upgrades. For a bit less money you could get a Flatcap II which will improve your phono (by helping the Nait out) and your cd (by helping the Nait AND the CD5). I can't say which way is better, but try for a dem (it's not that hard to plug in the FC). The LP12/Ittok/Valhalla is a great machine on its own.
--Eric
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by glevethan
Eric
It is funny that you mention the suggestion about the Flatcap2. I have started to wonder which would make a greater improvement and give the most bang for the buck. It is possible that the money might be more wisely spent in this direction by upgrading the Nait and the CD5. As you said it might be the best of both worlds- the CD5 improves-the Nait improves-and as such the LP12 will improve.
Gregg
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by MarkEJ
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
...does it begin to become "overkill" assembling a highly spec'ed LP12 to mate with a relatively modest system of a Nait5-CD5-Stageline and ProAc SuperTablettes?
Not at all. Spending money on the source should improve things. Spending money further down the chain will only emphasise shortcomings in the source. The system you list above (or its equivalent) would have been a perfectly normal dealer recomendation 20 years ago, and the guiding principles are equally valid today. However, TT and phono stage power supplies are both part of the "source" -- if you are considering these, think first (as James says) about optimising the environment in which the LP12 operates (support, mains, level). Then, when you get round to the power supplies, you'll get the full benefit straight away. In the meantime, take Jonthan's advice and play some records.
Best;
Mark
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by Nime
Originally posted by James:
_40%_
_30%_
_15%_
_15%_
"Just some perspective for you guys to consider before the 'Geddon vs Lingo vs Lingo2 vs Valhalla gets too heated."
James
I was terrified you were going to exceed 100% and destroy our flat earth universe with a third dimension!
Isn't all this talk about power supplies a little too "round earth" chaps? All a bit cold & emotionless? Too "hifi"?
My first listen to a Linn LP12 (decades ago now) was almost a religious experience too. It changed everything I ever thought about music & hifi. And my emotional response to it.
Nothing's ever been quite the same since!
That still doesn't mean I have to like Jazz or Country and Western or Elton John!
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by domfjbrown
quote:
Originally posted by P:
Don't diss the CD5 BTW. It's a very capable player. Team it up with a half decent power supply (Supercap [or a good 3rd party alternative :-]) and you have something to rival a CDS2.
Hmm - a Flatcap's made a decent difference to mine, but what of this third party solution you speak of - it wouldn't start with "A" and rhyme with Havendale would it???
quote:
Originally posted by P:
But not a good LP12.
<walking across floor> boing boing wooooouuuwwwww skeeeetz jump>
Hmmm... Dons flameproof jacket...
__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Lingo 1 nearly as good as Lingo 2??
Sorry to be rude, but this is just plain wrong. Bear in mind that the case size altered from half to full width and for a while, kept the same electronics. The L2 now has revised electronics and sounds way better. Those who report no big improvements have, I suspect, heard a full width, original electronics Lingo 1.
It is night and day - yet the L1 was a big improvement on the Valhalla.
Analogy; the Mini. One made by British Leyland, one by BMW. Both are called Mini; one is a far better car.
PS - as I understand it, Linn only offer the LP12 with the Lingo, if you are buying one from a dealer with a Valhalla, ensure you are getting a second hand price
Regards
Mike
On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by MarkEJ
quote:
Originally posted by mike lacey:Analogy; the Mini. One made by British Leyland, one by BMW. Both are called Mini; one is a far better car.
Absolutely -- couldn't agree more -- that German thing's uglier than a new Rega...
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by glevethan
Mike
In reference to the Valhalla supplied by my dealer - it is essentially a remanufactured one supplied by Linn. I realize that the Valhalla has not been produced for a number of years.
It is nice to see this thread grow in size, however now I am truly confused by what I have read. I am looking to maximize my investment and obtain the best results from the money I will be spending.
I am now wondering about the following options:
take a new Lingo2 over the Valhalla
OR
bypass the Lingo2 and go for a Flatcap2 to better the Nait5(and hopefully the phono end) AND the CD5
AND
what about my Stageline-change it to a Prefix?
Decisions Decisions
Gregg
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by J.N.
It was a rainy afternoon, and this thread got me inspired to fire up the beastie and enjoy some vinyl magic.
Here's a picture for you. It's a DV10x5 in an Ittok. Armageddon p/s and the Stageline is powered from the 252.
