naim upgrades and comparison with other systems
Posted by: rocketeer on 09 December 2002
I recently upgraded from an old 140 to a recent but still "olive style" 250 model into dynaudio contour 1.3 speakers, having cdx/72/hi in front. The reasons why not upgrading somewhere at the front was that a more authoritarian "dictator" for the powerhungry dyns was far overdue and that this upgrade was the cheapest i could do.
From the upgrade i actually expected an improvement in bass control. In fact, this was now amazing, wow! Bass seemed to be perfectly balanced with the other ranges, almost free from unpleasant discontinuities, with an exceptional tune i never heard before through my system. But this was not all yet: had the sound stage undergone a considerable refinement and better illumination with the cdx upgrade, the 250 was now stretching it to stunning extents, revealing much more musical layers and details. Very impressive, since i did not expect such capabilities from a poweramp. All in all, the 250 upgrade was fully satisfying, and surprisingly was in the order of the cd3.5-to-cdx upgrade.
But then came the time for me to cry: a good friend of mine showed up to take a listening session. He admitted that overall sound had improved from the last time he listened to my system, but suggested that something was still missing. His words were: "...as if there is a cork or plug somewhere, holding back the whole sound". cork or plug? i was somehow shocked, and my view immediately turned over to the 72, since it was now the weakest link in my setup. One day later i had transferred my whole system over to my friends place, to compare it with his system. This was completely non-naim and consisted of micromega stage 1 transport, parasound DAC1600 converter, and a 15 years old accuphase C200V/P300V amp combo. The system was spread all over the floor (my chap doesn't know the word tidiness!), my naim system sitted on my solidsteel 3.4, enhanced with granite shelves. Speakers were dynaudio contour 1. We then went through some cds, starting with solo instruments (guitar, piano, etc.) and voices. The difference was not that big, but we still noticed that the naim system played more natural and engaging, while the other system was more hifi, but still in a very pleasant way. When changing to more complex music, like classic orchestra, or even large band setups with lots of instruments and voices (like fela kuti), the difference was striking. The other system played now far more opened and sparkling, the sound stage was monumental, if not gigantic. The naim system apparently was flat and almost 2dimensional in comparison. It also had severe separation problems and obviously was swamped with the musical complexity, leading to a clearly more nervous sound. I was always very happy with my system (and probably still will be), but this comparison clearly pointed out its limitations. Overall, i would have preffered the other system, it was simply better. The transport/converter combo was in the same price range as the cdx. The accuphase amp combo was very old, the poweramp was serviced 4 years ago. Compared to naim kit prices, it would probably be the value of an 82/hicap and 2x135s.
Back home, i'm still enjoying the naim kit. feeding it with my musical preferences - this is "organic" music - makes me forget about the earlier comparison, sound is simply still "beautiful". But i know by now, why there are some cds in my collection that i dont like much. They are not badly recorded, its the system which is overstrained with them. But only until the 52 will replace the 72, in about 2 to 3 years...
rocketeer
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by Markus
Rockateer,
I've had similar experiences, most notably when comparing a 72/hi to a "First Sound" passive preamp fronting wonderful VTL 225 monoblocks. The treble rolloff of the 72 was only too apparent and I'm guessing a fair bit of the soundstage information you describe as missing, by comparison to your friends equipment, can be traced to the limitations of the 72. IMHO, that's an aspect of the sound that the 102 (and above) preamps were designed to fix.
Depending on how much it bothers you, you might try a 102 or perhaps even a 112. Yes, yes I' aware others will advise you to go for at least an 82. The point isn't what's the better preamp, the point is (for me) maximizing value for money. With the new equipment now hitting the market it will only get easier to pick up pieces like the 102/112 at bargain prices. Don't let the criticisms of the 112 or 102 trouble you--try one and see what you think. I think you'll find your system more closely comparing to your friends. Of course, if you do manage an 82 you may find you leave his system in the weeds...
Markus
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by rocketeer
quote:
Soundstaging isn't exactly a Naim strongpoint!
Nick
I agree, this is apparent when comparing naim kit with other. Some other presented a greater soundstage, but also with the coldness of an iceberg. Greater soundstage isn't neccessarily better music. But in the above comparison soundstaging not being a naim stongpoint really had compromised the naim system. It was far away from "i could live with that smaller soundstaging", at the level of CDX and 250 it was even embarrassing. Also from the above comparison, i suspect the 72 between the CDX and the 250 to be a major drawback. Too bad, i cannot make the same comparison with an 82 or even 52...
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by dave simpson
Rocketeer,
Also keep in mind the possibility of sub-optimal setup at your friends house. Things to ponder.... the Accuphase rig was sitting on the floor (carpeted?) vs. the naim rig on (any) stand (all stands degrade the signal...most "more", a pitiful few "less"), the naim rig was cold, if the rigs shared an AC line-the naim rig would definately be underperforming, how much time did you (could you?) devote to proper setup for the naim rig at your friends house.
Before non-Naimers cry "foul"... I'd ask the same questions if the situation (and outcome) were reversed. Regarding your friends comment about your rig at your house still sounding "corked"--don't discount the 72 just yet. I've heard a six-pack "corked" due to setup errors-- IMO, the better the gear, the more musically degrading those setup errors become.
I wouldn't worry about the shoot-off Rocketeer. Concentrate on maximizing your installation.You may be shocked yet at how good your rig really is now once it's installation is sorted.
good luck,
dave
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by rocketeer
hi dave
Honestly, i never encountered a setup correction to be more of an improvement as to replace a component. I don't consider myself as a setup expert at all, but i think there is not much space for improvement in my system's setup. ok, i do not have a dedicated mains spur, but how many of us have? i also do not have a fraim rack. But at least i noticed that my kit perfoms quite better on the granite shelved solidsteel than lying on the floor.
What is a correct setup, in your oppinion? what kind of setup errors may i be commiting (i have all naim interconnects and naca5 speaker cable)?
What kind of setup error had the sixpack you mentioned, and how did you correct it?
regards
rocketeer
Posted on: 09 December 2002 by dave simpson
Hi Rocketeer,
"ok, i do not have a dedicated mains spur, but how many of us have?"
Probably few have one--a shame really, it's one of the most significant cost-effective upgrades available for any hi-fi.
"i also do not have a fraim rack. But at least i noticed that my kit perfoms quite better on the granite shelved solidsteel than lying on the floor."
Certainly a matter of opinion...and I cannot challenge it since I've only heard the standard SolidSteel rack years ago. In it's factory configuration though it wasn't a purchase I'd make....for all I know, your use of granite shelves may make all the difference in the world. BTW, my reference for "direct-to-floor" assumes carpet over a concrete slab.
"What is a correct setup, in your oppinion? what kind of setup errors may i be commiting (i have all naim interconnects and naca5 speaker cable)?"
There are far too many things on the check-list to post here (as well as items unique to any install and only noticed during a house call), but it sounds like you've got the bits. Setup involves how those bits are put together. For example, no wobbly stands or spikes, the siting of power supplies vs. source units (it's not random), removing un-driven transducers from the room, unlocking DIN collars, wire routes, and details like the tuner input is the best "sounding" input on your 72...is it being utilized?
"What kind of setup error had the sixpack you mentioned, and did you correct it?"
The owner (to this day) loves to tweak his rig...and several months after the initial installation we discovered one run of NACA backwards, one run out-of-phase, a DBL tweeter's decoupled baffle-plate was not "decoupling" (a slight re-alignment with a screwdriver fixed this), NAC 52, SNAXO, various power supplies supported by cones on isolation boards direct to floor (the owner ran out of stands)---removed all and placed those units direct to floor. Now the system made music.
It might be worth a call to your local Naim dealer and have him check your setup.
regards,
dave
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by rocketeer
hi dave
this may turn into a tweaking thread now, but i find your issues quite interesting! I have not been for a long time on this forum, so, i didn't know about the unlocking of DIN collars or the tuner input of the 72. I did all that, and even if changes were subtle, the improvement was noticeable. dave, you seem to be quite a "tweaking guru", thanks a lot for your advice!
maybe, there is some more to come. I thought of soldering the naim plugs at the speaker end of the naca5, even though the speaker plug spacing is too wide (i have gold bananas now). Do you think this makes sense?
Another thing that came into mind was link plugs for unused input/output sockets on the 72 and hicap. Are such plugs available (i've seen some on other systems with RCA sockets)?
regards
rocketeer
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by Jean-Marc
quote:
Originally posted by rocketeer:
ok, i do not have a dedicated mains spur, but how many of us have?
rocketeer
I do have installed one a few months ago, following advices from Roy K.
It is only a "small" one, just one 2.5mm2 cables (live/neutral/earth), with a 63A RCD.
And the improvment is *huge*.
(total cost: around 100 Euros)
Before spending lots of cash into upgrade, my best advice is to have a dedicated spur first.
Regards
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by gusi
Hi Rocketeer,
You can tweak your speaker placement as well.
Last week I moved one of my briks a foot to the left. It moved further from the side wall and closer to the other speaker.
As a result all my high ranges sound much smoother. I was amazed at how much difference it made.
Happy Tweaking,
Gus
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by dave simpson
Hi Rocketeer,
Glad some of those "tweaks" brought you better music!
I'd definitely solder (or have your dealer solder) Naim-supplied connectors onto the NACA--both ends. From your post, I gather the Naim-supplied black plastic connector-spacers are what's causing the spacing problem with your speaker binding posts. Just throw them away (they're really just more of a convenience item though they do prevent one way of short circuiting the cables)-- NACA itself is ribbed for easy polarity identification.Those spacers also induce some microphonics issues.
Shorting plugs (link plugs)with Naim kit are a problem (except where required as specified by the owner's manual).
regards,
dave
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by Thomas K
Hi Rocketeer,
"i never encountered a setup correction to be more of an improvement as to replace a component"
I always knew my setup wasn't optimal and put off doing something about it until a while ago. Over the course of six months I have actually downgraded the equipment but achieved a much better sound, to a degree I would have expected from three box upgrades if setup weren't an issue. (This may also explain the huge differences you get at shows or dealer dems.)
Some of the improvements brought about more 'hifi' and others more 'musicality', e.g. timing. The last thing I did was to rearrange my shelf spacing to 1. give my Supercap a better shelf than my 52 (I have two kinds of shelves) and 2. to increase the vertical distance between the two.
Let me describe the results thus: I'm not the most experienced person here, but I've put quite some mileage behind me in the past three years. This one change that cost nothing but 2 hours of fiddling exceeded my expectations by so much that I sat there throwing my arms up repeatedly for about 20 minutes when I connected the sistem back up. I then spent the night listening to music, until after 4 am, at which point I was still shaking my head in disbelief from time to time. Songs that I used to skip before because I thought they were boring suddenly flowered into beautiful gems. One of the benefits was a deeper and much more realistic soundstage, BTW!
Dave's given you some good advice, and yes, there are so many things it would make little sense to list everything. What would help is some pictures of your sistem.
Thomas
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by rocketeer
Guys
i invited my friend to one more comparison at my place, which will take place not before next year. i'm really curious, because all these small little steps summed up to a considerable improvement (i even did the soldering job). thanks a lot for all your advice.
when i listen to the system now, it really gained some easiness and naturalness. complex passages of music are quite comfortable now, but still leave the impression that they could be much more relaxed and unconstrained. only compared to what i heard a few days ago. on the other hand, some really excellent musical parts make me forget about it more and more.
so, until i have saved up to go straight to a 52 - something i did not consider only these days - i will be very happy to read about more improvement tips on this forum. thanks, again. i will be posting some pictures of my setup for further "system analysis" soon...
so long
enjoy listening
rocketeer
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by BigH47
I am a relative newbie here. Is there a basic setup thread somewhere that explains things like cable dressing, mains lead routeings etc? Perhaps can answer questions like if there are locking rings on din plugs why not use them?
Preferred siting of the boxes.
Thanks
Howard
[This message was edited by BigH47 on TUESDAY 10 December 2002 at 22:54.]
[This message was edited by BigH47 on TUESDAY 10 December 2002 at 22:55.]
[This message was edited by BigH47 on TUESDAY 10 December 2002 at 22:58.]
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by jayd
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by BigH47
Thanks jayd
Howard
LP 12/ Ittok LV 11 pre Cirkus
72/Hi/140 Black SNAIC5 NACA5
Linn Keosas. SO 5 tier. TT wall shelf.
Posted on: 10 December 2002 by dave simpson