Is Naim all it is cracked up to be
Posted by: Mick P on 09 November 2002
Chaps
I have been buying Naim equipment for nearly six years. During that time I have always purchased Naim without even considering listening to other makes because I have total confidence them.
This has led to accusations of being a "sheep" etc. I have listened to other friends systems such as Krell, Arcam and Levinson and have always prefered Naim.
I was recently contacted by Big Tone from the Hifi Choice Forum to listen to each others system.
He is the Grand Architect of Round Earth, so today Mrs Mick and I visted him and the results are shown below which is a straight cut and paste from a posting in HFC.
..................................................
"Chaps
Mrs Mick and I were able to make the relatively short journey to Big Tones place to hear his system and to see how it compared to mine.
This was a somewhat worrying exercise because of the potential outcome.
I could have prefered Tones system, in which case I would have to flog off the Naim and Mrs Mick would have been in her element.
Mrs Mick may, herself, have prefered Tones system which would create an even bigger problem. So whilst I was looking forward to the visit, I was aware that the consequences could be dire.
My history is that I purchased my first bit of Naim kit (32.5 and 140) about six years ago and have been renewing it without demming or comparing to other makes which has justifiably led to the criticism that I am a Naim "sheep".
I have visited colleagues who have systems such as Arcam, Krell and Mark Levinson and I have always preferred the Naim, so hence my blind faith in them and my path along the upgrade route where I only considered Naim.
I now have two Naim sytems, one in the lounge and one in the dining room.
The main CD system comprises :-
CDS2+Supercap / NAC52+XPS / 2x135's / Linn Isobarik Speakers.
The black boxes are mounted on a Hutter rack and the speakers are on Mana. The room size was 21ft x 14ft with the speakers firing across the room.
Tones system is a Wadia 8 CDP with a Wadia 15 decoder / EVO 200 power amp and a pair of Monitor Gold Reference Speakers.
The Speakers are mounted on a pair of rather tasty looking marble slabs, firing down a room measuring, I would guess, 12ft x 15 ft.
We played a selection of CD's from Annie Lennox, Eric Clapton, Dave Brubeck, Sarah Brightman, Beachboys, Madonna and more. Overall we spent about 2 hours listening to music.
Firstly, the good news is that both Sue and I were totally in agreement with our findings, which was a big relief. I was dreading us having two opposing views for obvious reasons.
Overall we both agreed that Tones system had more detail and top end clarity than our system. This was its major strength. It was also very "Hifi" in the sense that it had more soundstage and depth of sound and although I am not good with words, the sound seemed to be coming from way behind the speaker and filled the room with a limitless depth.
The down side of Tones system was that it was so detailed that it became cold and clinical in comparison to ours.
Timpy reckoned that the Naim sound is "flat" compared to Tones and I would agree with that due to the relative lack of soundstage.
However, where the Naim sound scored is that it sounds so wonderfully warm and effortlessly communicative in comparison. Even if you are in the next room, it pulls you into the music and totally immerses you.
With my system I was listening to music and forgetting the system, with Tones system, I was enthralled by the Hifi effects but was not listening as much to the music.
I may be repeating myself from a previous thread, but to my mind, listening to Tones system could be compared to driving a Porshe which is a fast and superbly engineered car. However when you drive a Porche, your mind is concentrated on the Porche itself and not the views on the road as you make the journey.
The Naim on the other hand is more like a Jaguar, still a good car but when you drive it, it is so easy that you take in the views of the road and forget about the car. You finnish the journey relaxed and contented.
To me, Naim have won the battle if you want to communicate with music whereas the Wadia is a brilliant Hifi experience.
The good thing which has come out of this exercise is that Tone is happy with his system and I (and Sue) are happy with ours. None of us wants to change what we have got and this exercise helped all of us to reinforce that view.
Both Tone and I have offered further invites at a later date if any of our respective friends want to hear the other guys system.
Finally, Sue and I want to thank Big Tone for his hospitality, he certainly is a unique guy and it was a pleasure visiting him.
Regards
Mick"
..................................................
The outcome of this is that I am now more than ever convinced that Naim is the best manufacturer of equipment which makes music and I shall continue to bang the drum for a long time to come.
Naim are still the King of the industry.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by Rico
A finely crafted and well balanced argument eminates once again from Swindon.
Good to hear you're not missing the Jag, either!
Thanks for sharing the results of your trip, Mick. Best to Sue also.
Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by Mr Underhill
I listened to lots of different systems from '79 to '82.
The best I heard was a friends, who used an active set up powered by valve amps using an LP12 source and home made speakers - it was fantastic.
I decided that you just couldn't judge any piece of kit by itself; they form a synergistic whole. The systems that generally sounded good to me were Linn/Naim flat earth society systems. There were ones I enjoyed more - but not 'out of the box'.
In '82 I began saving. In late 83 I bought an LP12/Ittock/Karma to add to my Hafler 101 / Quad 405 and Spendor speakers.
A year later the amps became 42/110.
Another year Kans arrived.
Today I'm still running my LP12. The amp has become a 32.5 / Hi-Cap / 2 x 250, 140 (With a family I've expanded the set up for Home Cinema) and my Kans.
I do sometimes think about Krells et al; BUT, I know what I've got sounds good. To move elsewhere would mean looking for that elusive quality of synergy. All that effort, and money, is better spent buying and listening to music.
The main thing I have to do is avoid the hi-fi mags!
Posted on: 09 November 2002 by Roy T
Posted on: 10 November 2002 by J.N.
Interesting experiment at my place, with some friends last night.
We compared a very well reviewed £750 non-Naim integrated amplifier with a Nait 2.
The other amp did some things better, but the Nait just rocked.
If that's important to you; there ain't much else to consider outside of mortgage money.
I think J.V. said long ago that his aim was to make products that swing.
His aim was true.
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by np
The one aspect of Naim I think sets them apart is their attitude to us. The older I get the more I come to believe that customer service is quite often crap and getting crapper. I've owned Naim things since 1987 and have had a few dealings with their service dept. and they have been, without exception better than I've had from any other company bar none. In fact it has basically been flawless.
Long may they prosper.
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Mick P
Paul
To date I have yet to hear anything which can match Naim in terms of sound, musicality, quality, longevity, serviceability and overall value for money.
Also it attracts a much nicer type of client unlike some of the ruffer types if you get my drift.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
Hello Mick Parry,
Please forgive my interrupting your thread, but I could not help but Feel your last post was some what elitist possibly?,are you saying that by owning a Naim or related products that you are, shall we say, somewhat 'Elevated' above the general hifi buying public?, is this a form of 'Old school Tie' in a different form?
so for example if I were to purchase a Nap 500 & a 552, would that make me any Better (socialy) than if I was to purchase a Musical Fidelity corrosponding Pre-amp and power ampilifer?, or even (Funds Permitting) a Spectral ampilication system with an Accuphase CDP?, because my Finanical situation stops me from doing this, will It make me a Lesser individual in anyones eye's?. From reading some of your pervious posts, you yourself are a well respected member of this forum, and I feel well placed to furnish a reply, this is not a personal slight or a 'Dig' just mere curiosity and out of intrest, how did you find the person, whom you visited at the weekend to be? is he as you have described above possibly or just another enthusiast?
Kind Regards David
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Mick P
Dave
Anyone who buys Naim, whether top notch or a 20 year old Nait1, is in my opinion, a person of good taste. I use a 1986 32.2 pre amp in my second system and it still blows 99% of other systems of the face of the earth.
Naim owners do not as far as I know look down on those with lesser makes, but most of us are not too keen on those uncouth oiks who ruin a bloody good amp like Naim by placing it on a vile monstrosoity such as Mana.
I found Tone, the chap that I visited, a very pleasant and knowledgable guy. His system was superb but presented the music in a different way.
I hope this answers your questions.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
Mick,
Thank you for your reply sir,I am 'Getting' the message you have put across

First, as I am new to this Forum I would like to say it is quite refreshing to see members with opposing views, bantering with each other in this way, although I am at a loss over the pure Intrest that is shown in componant isolation and stands, and the pure 'Emotion' it evokes in various members over this issue? can/do they realy make that much of a difference?, is it realy possible (as many members suggest) that it can radicaly change the overall presentation of the sound? well sorry to go on, once again thanks for the time
Kind Regards David
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Mick P
Paul
For once you have come up with a good idea.
If you buy Mana, you should restrict yourself to a £99.00 CD Player and spend the money saved on even more Mana. The effect is of course even better if all of this is mounted on rotten floor boards which move a couple of inches when you walk across the room. Also it sounds even better when the listener eats a plate of noodles on toast accompanied by a glass of premium lime juice.
All of this can be verified by flicking through old Mana forum postings of approximately 6 months ago.
If you buy a Quadraspire "bogseat" then any old junk will do. Just make sure your have a mains filter in the system and that all the cables all either horizontal or vertical in orientation.
Again for our newer members, all of this is available on the older threads.
The ultimate crime of low image of course is to combine the above. So you have a £99.00 CDP mounted on a bog seat, with a mains filter, listening to the above mess whilst eating a pot noodle out of the pot.
Anyway I must now depart, I am off to a function for the evening.
Catch you later
Mick
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Steve Toy
quote:
I am at a loss over the pure Intrest that is shown in componant isolation and stands, and the pure 'Emotion' it evokes in various members over this issue? can/do they realy make that much of a difference?, is it realy possible (as many members suggest) that it can radicaly change the overall presentation of the sound?
Your choice of isolation/stand may well change the overall sonic character of your system more than any of the boxes. For example, upgrading from a Nap 140 to a Nap 200 may not make a much difference as placing your kit on a decent rack.
A Naked CDX on a decent stand will easily outperform a CDS2/XPS plonked on the floor or on a coffee table.
Regards,
Steve.
It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard. Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Toy:
Your choice of isolation/stand may well change the overall sonic character of your system more than any of the boxes. For example, upgrading from a Nap 140 to a Nap 200 may not make a much difference as placing your kit on a decent rack.
A Naked CDX on a decent stand will easily outperform a CDS2/XPS plonked on the floor or on a coffee table.
_
Steven,
thank you for answering the question,I realise that having a stable place on which to rest my disc player is more preferable than having it on the floor

but, but using one of these isolation/stands/supports, you realy can improve the sound quality that much?, by how you are describing this, then this is like changing CD players themselves, is that what you are hinting at?, what about a large solid dense material such as granite, would this not suffice? or maybe an obsorbing material perhaps? questions, questions sorry but I just find it hard to grasp the concept

again thanks
Kind Regards David
Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
quote:
Originally posted by Cliff Patterson:
I think good shelves matter, but maybe source first still wins.
<you're never too old to form a new first impression>
Cliff,
Could you please elaborate on this sir? I am getting crossed wires possibly? Steven is saying that a isolation/stand is as good as a possible CD box upgrade? or is this just a misunderstanding, where as yourself (Cliff) are stating that a stand/isolation is important, but does not have the impact that Steven Toy has impilied?, I realise that a good stand/shelf/isolation has a place in the line,although it maybe not as dramatic as Steve is suggesting? possibly?, sorry for an confusion I am some what new to this hifi Lark
Kind Regards David
Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderbird 2:
Steven is saying that a isolation/stand is as good as a possible CD box upgrade?
Steven is obviously a disciple of the much missed Mr. Pig, who famously claimed that a £99 Cambridge Audio player on Phase 4 Mana sounded as good as (or even better than) a Naim CD3.5 on Phase 3 Mana. To my ears it certainly didn't but there are a number of people out there making similar claims, none of who's systems I've heard so I can't comment further.
Personally I think a rack is an important component in much the same way a pre-amp or CD player is. If you have a decent system it will certainly benefit from a decent rack (although which decent rack will depend on personal preference and what kit you have). A decent rack could therefore be regarded as an upgrade, in much the same way as a better CD player or power supply would. To that extent therefore Steven is correct, however whether the rack or the XPS would be the bigger upgrade may differ from person to person.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
Steve G,
Thank you for a more clearer explaination, I see it is a realitive (subjective) to equipment and individual musical tastes, thanks again for helping me with my ignorance.
Kind Regards David
Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by plynnplynn
It is good to see Mick back. His first post in this thread was well considered, courteous and appropriate.
It is also good to see that Mick is back and in controversial mode again.
David
Supports do make a difference. Even simple experiments can show how much difference a small change can make. Try a cushion under a hicap on its normal support then remove the cushion and put a few bits of dense wood (eg oak) under the hicap (idea courtesy Russ Andrews). Also try this with other component parts of your system. You will notice differences each change you make. You may not be sure which is better and which is worse initially. You will develop a feeling about what different types of support will do for your system and you will develop preferences.
The above is easy and inexpensive. You can also experiment with heavy or light supports/shelves without too much expense (concrete slabs, lightweight wood, more dense wood, glass). You will hear a difference without the need of expensive supports.
Although you will find few who speak very positively about all the Russ Andrews tweaks and the supports he sells you may be interested in downloading his information leaflet about supports. It is quite interesting.
Mana - well look to the Mana site and the Mana Forum and make up your own mind. Maybe simple experiments will give you an idea of what Mana might do for your system compared to Russ Andrews and Torlyte. I have tried neither in my system but I think I know what each can offer - just from the materials used and the strategy adopted in their construction.
As for my system at the moment I have all components sitting on shaped oak pieces and I am delighted with the improvement. The oak was left-over from a diy job in my house and so cost nothing.
Terry
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by plynnplynn:
The oak was left-over from a diy job in my house and so cost nothing.
Aha - a true Aberdonian I see.

Regards
Steve
Posted on: 11 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
quote:
Originally posted by plynnplynn:
The oak was left-over from a diy job in my house and so cost nothing.
Aha - a true Aberdonian I see. 
Regards
Steve
Thanks again chaps, I see laughter is a prime requisit here

I like
Kind Regards David
Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Alex S.
Thank you for your report.
Comparing two opposites tells you little constructive about either. There is other equipment which actually plays music but Naim is one of the best obviously.
The comparison between Naim, Densen, Dynavector and DNM would be much more meaningful than listening to a massively round earth system. Nonetheless, I'm shocked that Sarah Brightman didn't sound better with the musical message removed.
Alex
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by plynnplynn
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
quote:
Originally posted by plynnplynn:
The oak was left-over from a diy job in my house and so cost nothing.
Aha - a true Aberdonian I see. 
Regards
Steve
Thanks Steve
Although I would be proud to call myself an Aberdonian I cannot claim that honour. Born in Forres in pre-history (1947) I lived in Elgin until I made my way to University in Aberdeen in 1966. Since then I have been a resident of the Granite City - but I would not claim to have 'Aberdonian' status.
Terry
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Mick P
Chaps
You may be delighted to know that Sarah has just brought out a video and DVD compilation of her many beautiful songs.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Alex S.
Phew, your Christmas conundrum is solved, Mick. Beauty is in the earhole of the beholder as they say.
Alex
N.B The two factors that make the biggest difference to the performance of a hi-fi system are the combined effects of the legal and illegal drugs you've just taken
Posted on: 12 November 2002 by Thunderbird 2
Originally posted by Alex S.:
Phew, your Christmas conundrum is solved, Mick. Beauty is in the earhole of the beholder as they say.
Alex
Mick,
I am afraid I must agree with Alex, Miss Brightman's voice is somewhat 'Non Easy on the inner ear' and I feel lives up to hear surname with gusto!! in a 'Paint-stripping fashion' although I am not questioning your taste in arual pleasures, I just feel however S/B has a certain ability to cause people listening to leave the room prematurely. sorry in advance
Kind Regards David
Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul
[This message was edited by Thunderbird 2 on TUESDAY 12 November 2002 at 21:17.]
Posted on: 14 November 2002 by Mick P
Cliff
You are correct in stating that I do have some Mana stands under my Briks.
To be fair, they did improve the sound and do not look to bad.
I still maintain that the Mana amplifier stands look unattractive. They look bloody hideous once the soundframes are introduced.
Big Tone from Hifi forum, visited my house and reckoned that the Mana Brik stands looked like something out out a ship building yard.
I may experiment with the bespoke marble stands that he uses.
Regards
Mick