SBL setup query (probably)

1.) I can hear now that the amps (92/IXO/2*90s) have not enough power for the SBLs. The Credos were driven easily...

2.) First I thought that the bass was less than with the Credos. The Credos seemed to have a louder bass, but the SBLs sound much clearer, faster, richer etc.

Is this similar to what you experience now?

Jun

Remove the tweeter and remove the bass bin, (Be careful as you can damage the gasket.

Remove all semblance of the silicon and resite the bass speaker, now have a check there should be a 3-5 mm gap all the way round, its this gap which needs to be filled with a thin bead of silicon. If there is no gap then check under the bass speaker cabinet there should be four black peices of plastic which the spikes dig into, if these are badly worn or none existant you may wish to phone Naim to see if you can blag some.

When redoing the silicon insure you smear the gasket and bass box with a little washing up liquid to make it easy to remove the next time.

As an end point I was blown away by the quality difference with my SBLs compared to my old credos, so I hope this is a simple problem with the interface between bass speaker and bottom box.

Not that I really know what I’m talking about, but the impression I get from my SBLs (which replaced Credos and should wipe the floor with Intros) is that the timing consistency of the left and right speaker is crucial to the typical SBL sound.

Make sure they tweeter cabinets are absolutely in line (no toe-in). Using a bit of string or peering over the front cabinet edge to see whether the line hits the corner of the other speaker’s cabinet helps, but you may have to listen to get it absolutely right. If you have “Chemistry” by Semisonic, there’s an electronic ping-pong effect that’s used a couple of times at the end of the first song – when my SBLs are perfectly in line, the source of these effects seems to be located behind and to the left resp. right of me. Two millimeters in the speaker setup will make a helluva difference. Note that you won’t get flat-earth presentation with music – it’s only phasey sound effects like the one described that can serve as an indicator. However, if that’s right the general timing and speed characteristics will blow your socks off.

Also try moving them apart a bit, or perhaps closer together.

There could be thousands of reasons for the lack of a grin on your face, for instance room acoustics. The 140 – while not perhaps the ideal amp for SBLs – should not be a hindrance. Granted, I use two of them, but the change from Credo to SBL was huge in my system.

Thomas

PS Adding to what Mr Keller said - SBLs sound bass-lighter than Intros/Credos, but they should let you hear low-register notes you've never heard before.

Another idea-make sure the bottom spikes are well embedded into your floor and that the speakers are not wobbling. I had a rug on top of the carpet and this was lifting the spikes clear of the floorboards-poor bass as a result.

I agree with the rest re bass quality. I found Credo bass was boomy and boxy but not lacking quantity-especially if close to the wall. The SBL bass character is different, faster and better resolved but with a 140 it may lack some of the quantity that you are used to. This improves with a second 140 and active by the way!

Lastly-using NACA5 I presume?

Bruce

P.S. Jun-note your comments re 90x2 IXO and SBL but before you assume the amps are at fault try a SNAXO. When I did the dem with 140's and IXO vs SNAXO it was very, very obvious that the IXO was the weakest link-making everything muddy and congested.

Bruce

Just to deal with a couple of points:

1. The SBLs are on the Mana soundbases the Intros were - solid as a rock and up against the wall with no toe in.

2. I am using NAC5.

3. The sound probably works better objectively in that there's an improvement. Subjectively however, I'm not enjoying the sound. There seems to be something out of balance - too much top end detailing and not enough depth and texture. Bass is (again objectively) lower, but holistically it's not working. It's this that's driving my quest.

You seem to be assuring me that the 140 should not pose a problem in appreciating the upgrade. Certainly, if things don't improve significantly, a 250 will come sooner rather than later (closely followed of course by a second Hicap for the 82!).

The idea of starting the setup process again seems the soundest (pun?) approach. Given that the gasket has seen several separation/adhesions in being moved/sold, do you think it makes sense to change these? It may be worth noting that when separated (by vendor), the gasket on each speaker remained fixed to one box. I merely ran a bead of silicon around the exposed side and affixed as per instructions. The gaskets themselves look OK.

Just one more question... I've seen the suggestion about greasing up to facilitate easier silicon/box separation, but doesn't this mean that the silicon won't stick and so form an airtight seal under (sound) pressure? Er.. I don't fully understand this!

Chris

how are the aluminium pads under each bass/mid cabs? If the holes are too big, the pads should be removed, the dents in the cabs filled, and new pads attached (all this is detailed in the Naim setup instructions). It's then necesary to line up the boxes, and adjust any rocking of the bass/mid box atop the bottom cabinet by gently seating the bass/mid box onto the upward-facing spikes. Of course, these *indentations* make it easier to situate the cabinet when you're installing atop the silicone.

If you are in doubt re the gaskets, replace them. Just be absolutely sure that any remnants of the old gasket, or silicone, are removed.

Smear fairy liquid along the top of the gasket, and on the bottom of the bass/mid cabinet where the silicone will contact. You'll know how much to use, as too little won't spread, and well - you'd have to squeeze out a line to use too much. As mentioned above, this facilitates much easier seaparation and cleanup later. DO not be concerned about air-tightness from fairly liquid. Air-tightness is down to the state of the gasket and its installation (I have seen a dealer-installed gasket with a kink in the underside forming an airleak), and your silicone job. After silicone you should be able to see the gasket all the way around, and a bead *above* of silicone. Silicone bridging/coupling the two boxes is to be avoided.

Re the mana bases - I have not used them myself. Many seem to be of the opinion that with SBL's they increase the clarity such that they will mercilessly expose any setup deficiencies, and/or "lower end" kit in your system. "Anything less than CDSI/II+52+250 and I would not do them" is the line. With this in mind, perhaps you should concentrate on setting up the SBLs without the Soundbases to start with. Once you have the SBL's sorted, you can try the soundbases on the next setup, and determine if they work for you in your new system configuration. You might end up using them, you might leave them in the cupboard for future developments. I make this recommendation on the basis of keeping things simple, and eliminating interactions between components used together - usually the path to an easier more successful setup.

Additionally - yep a 250 will drive SBLs better, but 82/140 should be putting a smile on your dial, generally. Esp with a strong front end such as the CDSI.

The rest of the setup hints above (Garyi, Thomas) etc are spot on. Dead straight, close to the back wall etc... Let us know how you get on!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by Chrisp:
3. The sound probably works better objectively in that there's an improvement. Subjectively however, I'm not enjoying the sound. There seems to be something out of balance - too much top end detailing and not enough depth and texture. Bass is (again objectively) lower, but holistically it's not working. It's this that's driving my quest.

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Sorry, for me that is an excellent description of how Mana upsets an otherwise balanced system.

I have also heard a similar effect caused by incorrect placement in a room.

If you can, try the speakers against each wall of the room, and see if the effect goes away. Don't worry too much about moving other things out of the way - you'll know if you suddenly find a magical spot. You may not leave the speakers there in the end, but you'll know that the problem is not in the rest of the system.

Also, just moving the speakers a few inches can make a surprising amount of difference, but I get the impression that this tends to give a tweak to the sound rather than the major character changes from moving to another wall.

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Given that the gasket has seen several separation/adhesions in being moved/sold, do you think it makes sense to change these?

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I understood that a re-seal of the boxes (i.e. new gasket kit) was almost mandatory after transporting them.

I'd try this first.

cheers, Martin

Your Naim dealer should have SBL gasket kits in stock. £15 IIRC. Your description of the contents is correct, with the ommission of the staples required to anchor the self-adhesive alu pads. Oh, instruction sheet, cardboard spacer (for setting correct distance between tweeter box and bass/mid box) is also included, and it's all in a minigrip bag. The spacer is pretty cool and features a "secondary function" - when you attempt to tighten the left side first time, the tweeter box natrually tries to pitch forward and hit the bass/mid box. The spacer takes care of this.

Instructions with the kit explain it all. The alu pads are large enough to allow some re-siting for diferent staple-holes if you're really that fussy. The instructions even specify the preferred wood filler. No I can't remember which one.

Do you mean you haven't yet re-sealed them? Were they not broken down for transporting?

If the answers are "no", and "no", get a kit, follow the instructions, begin again - and get back to us. Surely for the amazing bargain price a gasket kit was included? If your dealer doesn't stock them, wonder why not, rapidly apply wet fish to dealer, then select a dealer serious about SBLs.

Ye cannae transport/move SBLs without rebuilding them; transporting them with the boxes in place will result in deepening of the spike pads resulting in performance deterioration, and most likely the seal will break anyway. If you are already aware of this, appologies for the "how to suck eggs" lesson.

If after following all the instructions above (the whole thread, not just mine), there is a possibility that you just don't like SBLs. Alternately, you may be left wondering why you went to all this trouble rather than just buy from a dealer, who would have cheerfully installed them for you at no extra charge, and ensured you are left grinning from ear-to-ear - as you are now.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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There seems to be something out of balance - too much top end detailing and not enough depth and texture. Bass is (again objectively) lower, but holistically it's not working

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Originally posted by Rico:
If after following all the instructions above (the whole thread, not just mine), there is a possibility that you just don't like SBLs.

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I've heard SBLs sound like a bag of sh*te.

The same setup working well can make them sound fantastic.

Persevere, for now.

cheers, Martin

Cheers

Ade

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so I am fully aware of the importance of setting up, but hopefully my fussy nature will be a bonus here.

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DaveyP. It seems you are pre-destined to be an SBL owner. While a "Mr Fussy" hat is not a pre-requisite, it will assist in getting the best of them. I am sure you will reach nirvana!

If your local dealers turn out to be losers in terms of gasket kit procurement, perhaps the friendly folks at Naim customer service might help.

We are all sincerely looking forward to your reports of progress regards optimising your newly acquired SBLs.
[/disengage filtering]

Please do not confuse progress with that rock genre of the 70's amidst which Rick Wakeman makes a complete ass of himself. Oh hell, now I'm getting that confused with Never Mind The Buzzcocks

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - I hope you recover from the humungous ring soon.

Now that I've got my hands on a pair in my home, I'm not going to let a little matter of set up stop me from continuing my (cliche coming) Naim odyssey towards audio nirvana.

Conclusion: I'm going to get the kit/wood filler and start from the beginning.

I'm collecting it this afternoon, will work on them Saturday... and let you know.

Chris

PS Moving the SBLs close as physically possible to the wall (the instruction book says 10cm or less I think) helps a bit, but the stiffness of the NAC5 means that there's a risk of the speakers coupling with the wall - should I worry about that?

if you're going to be fussy about this, you should use another gasket kit if you move the speakers again.

It's probably worth you spending some time playing around with speaker positioning before you do that.

You won't get a definitive answer, because they're not working at their best, but it might give you some information that will be useful later. That way you can seal them once, rather than having to re-do it after you've tweaked.

cheers, Martin

I would encourage you to make sure that the speaker wire doesn't rest on the wall. I didn't find that difficult when using right-angle connectors, e.g. the Naim connectors, on the end of the Naca5.

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what they do, they do stunningly. And what they don't.. well maybe it doesn't matter - you're too busy listening to the music.

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Nail, head, thunk. Excellent. SBL's in a nutshell. Or encapsulated, as we say these days.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Whilst I hadn't done anything particularly wrong, I had failed to notice that the SBLs had been previously siliconed on BOTH SIDES of the gasket. This would appear to be incorrect. The sticky back gasket should be stuck to the base unit, silicone squeezed on top of the gasket and the base/mid unit accurately located onto the spikes and pushed down sufficiently to pierce the aluminium pads (I can't be absolutely sure that they pierced - not sure how to tell) and gently part-squash the silicone.

I also replaced the pads although didn't need to fill any holes underneath. However, as for hammering staples in to keep to (sticky back) pads in place - not a chance. To my mind, you need a proper staple gun. Can't imagine not having staples will be a problem sound wise (said hopefully)?

I must be getting better at this listening lark, because I feel confident in saying that they SBLs now sound right - everything is back in balance and the additive quality is right there. I know this because my wife is moaning at me for vegetating in the music room. Good news!

So now? Hmm... I definitely need that 250.. or should I get a 2nd hicap for the 82? Got to be the former - yes?

Chris

PS Yes I know - I need both! But give me a break - I've got a wife and two expensive children to feed. And don't even get me started on the new (just finished) kitchen.

congrats! "I must be getting better at this listening lark, because I feel confident in saying that they SBLs now sound right - everything is back in balance and the additive quality is right there."

Better at listening? Nah - no need. You've just made it much, much easier to listen to the music. Well done!

Wife and kids to feed? If you ask Mr Petrik really, really nicely, he might send you a copy of his "FlatEarth Kraft Dinner Diet Cookbook".

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Bruce

I would be very interested in knowing how you get on with the Mana under your SBL's.

I always had my SBL's pushed up against the wall on either side of a fire place and a dealer from Reading (Simon of Audio T ) recommended that I pull them 5" out and I was truely amazed by the results. Therefore I trust his judgement.

He strongly advised against Mana under the SBL's and I forgot the idea.

Please let us know how the Mana stands affect the sound.

I intend to remain with my SBL's, so I want to get the best out of them.

Regards

Mick

The decision to buy was made on the basis of opportunity - someone I knew and trusted offered them to me. How often does this happen to people?!

So is this an introduction to a message of regret? Well no, not really. But having done a lot of listening last night with a variety of music, I do have some further observations which go some way to tempering the enthusiasm with which I realised that I'd at least got the damm things set up correctly.

The speakers are a lot more open than the Intros... and therein may lie a problem. It seems to me that the 140 is really having a job 'filling' the speaker.

The top end is a lot better, with more presence and texture. This observation extends towards the middle as well, but somehow the musical message (to my ears) gets confused in the area between mid and bass.

At the bottom end, more comes through, but lower notes seem more 'diluted' than with my Intros. The punch has gone. I mean, polite Nirvana for heavens sake?!

And this means? Well, the SBLs are certainly impressing themselves upon me as being potentially capable of great things. With the 140 in charge however, this is clearly not going to happen.

What was an intense/tight experience with the Intros has become looser and more toppy (dominant top end) with the SBLs, which becomes more exacerbated as I turn the wick up. There's a fundamental lack of control which I'm pretty sure is not down to the speakers (or more to the point, my setup of them).

I wrote to Naim some years ago (before discovering this forum), asking for advice on an upgrade path. Their response is easily summarised: build from the source back and pay particular attention to power supplies.

Up until now, this is exactly what I've done, and I've yet to be disappointed. My most significant upgrades have been from CD3 to CDS1 (surprise surprise) and from 72/140 to 72/Hicap/140.

So am I unhappy, depressed, feeling life is worthless? Not a bit of it... it just means I'm probably going to have to fast track the 250 and 2nd Hicap for the 82 to redress the sense of balance I felt I previously had and start to exploit the talent of the SBLs. I've an urge not had with previous upgrades, where I've been happy to live with the new component for a good while (er.. before the itch set in again).

Chris

PS Or is it just me??

KC

One suggestion, Dave. I actually removed the gripper rod from the carpeted area behind my speakers, which would help if you want to place them that close to the wall.

Cheers
Ade

Like you I once considered removing 12" of gripper board to allow me to move the SBL's closer to the wall.

My SBL's are 7 ft apart with a shallow fireplace which come out 9" between them.

Simon of Audio T at Reading (much rated by Mark Tucker)advised pulling the SBL's out to a 6" gap behind them to make them more musical. I made the comments about that they needed to be up against the wall to get the bass etc, he said just try it.

I did try it and its much better. So keep an open mind and do not be afraid to experiment on moving them in or out from the wall.

Regards

Mick