A Question About Israel
Posted by: dave brubeck on 31 May 2010
Are they allowed to do whatever they like?
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by JamieL_v2
Sadly yes, as they have a huge lobby in the US.
Had an Arabic nation attacked an aid convoy we would be seeing bombs fall on one of their cities by now.
Israel has practised 'Apartheid' against its Arabic residents and neighbours for years.
Anyone who accuses the nation's actions of being unjust is accused of being anti-semitic.
I was delighted when a couple of years ago Jewish UK MP Gerald Kaufman said that Israel had used up their good will from the appalling horrors of the Holocaust, and was now committing the same actions against others.
It really is time that the Israeli government is treated with the pariah status that the South African racist regime was twenty years ago.
Had an Arabic nation attacked an aid convoy we would be seeing bombs fall on one of their cities by now.
Israel has practised 'Apartheid' against its Arabic residents and neighbours for years.
Anyone who accuses the nation's actions of being unjust is accused of being anti-semitic.
I was delighted when a couple of years ago Jewish UK MP Gerald Kaufman said that Israel had used up their good will from the appalling horrors of the Holocaust, and was now committing the same actions against others.
It really is time that the Israeli government is treated with the pariah status that the South African racist regime was twenty years ago.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by Howlinhounddog
I'm absolutely disgusted by this act of international terrorism by the Israeli government against a ship carrying humanitarian relief in international waters !
Enough of allowing the Israeli government to run rough shod over international laws. Remove yourselves from the occupied territories, remove your apartied governance of Palistine. For (Your) God's sake stop being a Bully!
Benjamin Netanyahu is an internationl criminal. His behaviour during his first term in office was just as bad as it appears to be now.
It is time for the Governments of the world to finally stand up and say NO MORE ! A ban on international trade with Israel would be a quick fix !
Enough of allowing the Israeli government to run rough shod over international laws. Remove yourselves from the occupied territories, remove your apartied governance of Palistine. For (Your) God's sake stop being a Bully!
Benjamin Netanyahu is an internationl criminal. His behaviour during his first term in office was just as bad as it appears to be now.
It is time for the Governments of the world to finally stand up and say NO MORE ! A ban on international trade with Israel would be a quick fix !
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by Howlinhounddog
quote:It really is time that the Israeli government is treated with the pariah status that the South African racist regime was twenty years ago.
Absolutely Jamie.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by lutyens
Jamie
I absolutely agree and while only a small thing, have bought no Israeli produce for some years........and yes I know the effect this may have on farmers etc.....but this trade simply legitimises the Israeli state and I would rather not.
The Israeli people are not all bad, (no worse than some americans!
)just the governmental state and their supporters. Their actions can, in my view, be considered little other than genocide. Not that I am a fan of Hamas I should add but that doesn't legitimise the Israeli actions either.
james
I absolutely agree and while only a small thing, have bought no Israeli produce for some years........and yes I know the effect this may have on farmers etc.....but this trade simply legitimises the Israeli state and I would rather not.
The Israeli people are not all bad, (no worse than some americans!
)just the governmental state and their supporters. Their actions can, in my view, be considered little other than genocide. Not that I am a fan of Hamas I should add but that doesn't legitimise the Israeli actions either.james
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by JamieL_v2
Thanks James
I also avoid buying Israeli produce. It was interesting that recently there was a change in the labeling of produce from Gaza, previously labeled as Israeli, and now as Gaza.
The Israeli ambassador to the UK was on the radio complaining about this change, which I felt was basically an admission that there was reason for people to boycott their goods.
No nation's citizens are all bad, but sadly the actions of some governments are beyond what should be accepted by other nations, no matter how utterly dreadful actions against their citizens were in the past.
I agree that the current actions of the Israeli government 'can, .. be considered little other than genocide', and it is especially sad as many of those citizens know what genocide is really like.
I also avoid buying Israeli produce. It was interesting that recently there was a change in the labeling of produce from Gaza, previously labeled as Israeli, and now as Gaza.
The Israeli ambassador to the UK was on the radio complaining about this change, which I felt was basically an admission that there was reason for people to boycott their goods.
No nation's citizens are all bad, but sadly the actions of some governments are beyond what should be accepted by other nations, no matter how utterly dreadful actions against their citizens were in the past.
I agree that the current actions of the Israeli government 'can, .. be considered little other than genocide', and it is especially sad as many of those citizens know what genocide is really like.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Gerald Kaufman said that Israel had used up their good will from the appalling horrors of the Holocaust, and was now committing the same actions against others.
www.archbishop-cranmer.blogspo...srael-is-giving.html
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by JAB
I trust for the sake of consistency that you avoid buying products from the USA, Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, South Korea, Japan, Portugal, Singapore, Ukraine and the United Kingdom who all participated in the illegal war in Iraq and contributed to the deaths of some 100,000 civilians?
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by Skip
I don't know.
13 million Jews in the world. Committed US friends.
1 billion Muslims. Not so much.
I wish the Muslims well but they have countries full of sponsorship with billions in resources.
I think the Jews need a safe harbor. And I admire their initiative to take care of themselves.
I especially appreciate their courage in the face of the degenerate and half-hearted support of the Obama administration.
Go Israel. Right or wrong. That is my view.
13 million Jews in the world. Committed US friends.
1 billion Muslims. Not so much.
I wish the Muslims well but they have countries full of sponsorship with billions in resources.
I think the Jews need a safe harbor. And I admire their initiative to take care of themselves.
I especially appreciate their courage in the face of the degenerate and half-hearted support of the Obama administration.
Go Israel. Right or wrong. That is my view.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by Sniper
quote:Go Israel. Right or wrong. That is my view.
No doubt some people thought the same way about Nazi Germany.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by winkyincanada
To rip-off John; Imagine there are no countries, and no religion, too. This tribalism makes me sick to my stomach. I don't give a $h!+ who is right and who is wrong and whose ancestry or beliefs gives them the higher moral ground. I really don't.
For F%$%$ sake people, just stop. Seriously, JUST STOP. Don't kill each other. Seriously, DON'T.
For F%$%$ sake people, just stop. Seriously, JUST STOP. Don't kill each other. Seriously, DON'T.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by onip
Hey All,
This is getting into some nasty name calling here, so lets be civil ok? At any rate, the Obama administration is still pro-Israel, and will do everything at the UN to make sure that there are no negative consequences for Israel's violations of international law, as usual. They just don't like it when Israel does things that make our support of Israel look especially difficult to defend. But if they got away with bombing apartment blocks and killing children to get one bad guy, leveling parts of Lebanon (civilians dead and homeless, but Hamas still doing just fine), building the wall, keeping Palestinians from jobs, water, other resources, etc. over many years why would one think the US would reverse course now?
The Palestinians should engage in non-violent resistance, instead of letting Muslim extremists orchestrate the response (easier said than done of course). As long as the Israeli government continues violent actions, it will strengthen Hamas and other violent groups on the other side. Israel probably likes this because it allows them to continue actions that ensure a Palestinian state is never viable. In addition, it allows the right-wing Christian Zionists to continue their dreams of Jesus coming back and therefore supporting Israel. It is a complicated mess, but that is how I see it IMHO.
This is getting into some nasty name calling here, so lets be civil ok? At any rate, the Obama administration is still pro-Israel, and will do everything at the UN to make sure that there are no negative consequences for Israel's violations of international law, as usual. They just don't like it when Israel does things that make our support of Israel look especially difficult to defend. But if they got away with bombing apartment blocks and killing children to get one bad guy, leveling parts of Lebanon (civilians dead and homeless, but Hamas still doing just fine), building the wall, keeping Palestinians from jobs, water, other resources, etc. over many years why would one think the US would reverse course now?
The Palestinians should engage in non-violent resistance, instead of letting Muslim extremists orchestrate the response (easier said than done of course). As long as the Israeli government continues violent actions, it will strengthen Hamas and other violent groups on the other side. Israel probably likes this because it allows them to continue actions that ensure a Palestinian state is never viable. In addition, it allows the right-wing Christian Zionists to continue their dreams of Jesus coming back and therefore supporting Israel. It is a complicated mess, but that is how I see it IMHO.
Posted on: 31 May 2010 by Sniper
16 people are killed by Israeli Zionist Apartheid state.
Israeli warships have surrounded the Gaza flotilla, and are flying drones and a helicopter overhead.
All on board the boats are wearing their lifejackets and are prepared.
They need your help.
1. PROTEST: MONDAY 31 MAY
Demand immediate government intervention against Israel blocking the flotilla's route to Gaza.
Where: Outside Downing Street
When: 2pm, Monday 31 May (nearest tube: Westminster)
Protest called by PSC, Stop the War Coalition, British Muslim Initiative, Friends of Al Aqsa
2. EMAIL THE FOREIGN OFFICE NOW
Send the template letter below to private.office@fco.gov.uk
AINAGCorrespondence@fco.gov.uk
haguew@parliament.uk
3. EMAIL NICK CLEGG
Send the template letter, addressed to Nick Clegg, to
cleggn@parliament.uk
libdemleader@parliament.uk
cleggn@hotmail.co.uk
leader@libdems.org.uk
Template letter:
Dear Mr Hague
An international flotilla of ships is, at this moment, attempting to deliver essential humanitarian aid to Gaza. The aid includes construction materials which would enable the people of Gaza to rebuild the homes destroyed by Israel in Operation Cast Lead last year.
There are nearly 700 people on board the boats, all of whom are ordinary civilians from around the world, including 40 British citizens. They have undertaken this mission out of concern for the people of Gaza, who are now entering their fourth year under siege, without access to basic necessities. They pose no threat to Israel, and are completely unarmed.
Despite this, the Israeli navy is attempting to block the flotilla from reaching Gaza. Israeli warships surrounded the boats on Sunday (30th May) night, while drones and a helicopter have been flying overhead. This hostile action has taken place in international waters.
I urge you to act swiftly to protect the flotilla, which is breaking no international laws, and, in particular, the British citizens on board, and to ensure that Israel allows this vital aid to reach its destination.
Israel’s occupation of Gaza is illegal under international law, and it has been accused in a UN report of committing war crimes in Gaza.
Your obligation must be towards a group of citizens peacefully attempting to deliver humanitarian aid, than to a country which repeatedly violates international treaties and resolutions. Those on board the boats face a serious threat - I call on you to end the UK government’s silence over Israel’s aggressive actions against the flotilla, and intervene now to demand its safe passage to Gaza.
Yours sincerely
Israeli warships have surrounded the Gaza flotilla, and are flying drones and a helicopter overhead.
All on board the boats are wearing their lifejackets and are prepared.
They need your help.
1. PROTEST: MONDAY 31 MAY
Demand immediate government intervention against Israel blocking the flotilla's route to Gaza.
Where: Outside Downing Street
When: 2pm, Monday 31 May (nearest tube: Westminster)
Protest called by PSC, Stop the War Coalition, British Muslim Initiative, Friends of Al Aqsa
2. EMAIL THE FOREIGN OFFICE NOW
Send the template letter below to private.office@fco.gov.uk
AINAGCorrespondence@fco.gov.uk
haguew@parliament.uk
3. EMAIL NICK CLEGG
Send the template letter, addressed to Nick Clegg, to
cleggn@parliament.uk
libdemleader@parliament.uk
cleggn@hotmail.co.uk
leader@libdems.org.uk
Template letter:
Dear Mr Hague
An international flotilla of ships is, at this moment, attempting to deliver essential humanitarian aid to Gaza. The aid includes construction materials which would enable the people of Gaza to rebuild the homes destroyed by Israel in Operation Cast Lead last year.
There are nearly 700 people on board the boats, all of whom are ordinary civilians from around the world, including 40 British citizens. They have undertaken this mission out of concern for the people of Gaza, who are now entering their fourth year under siege, without access to basic necessities. They pose no threat to Israel, and are completely unarmed.
Despite this, the Israeli navy is attempting to block the flotilla from reaching Gaza. Israeli warships surrounded the boats on Sunday (30th May) night, while drones and a helicopter have been flying overhead. This hostile action has taken place in international waters.
I urge you to act swiftly to protect the flotilla, which is breaking no international laws, and, in particular, the British citizens on board, and to ensure that Israel allows this vital aid to reach its destination.
Israel’s occupation of Gaza is illegal under international law, and it has been accused in a UN report of committing war crimes in Gaza.
Your obligation must be towards a group of citizens peacefully attempting to deliver humanitarian aid, than to a country which repeatedly violates international treaties and resolutions. Those on board the boats face a serious threat - I call on you to end the UK government’s silence over Israel’s aggressive actions against the flotilla, and intervene now to demand its safe passage to Gaza.
Yours sincerely
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Don'ttouchmetweeters!!!
Israel has had Turkey in it's sights for a while, the Turkish PM has not hidden his countries views on Gaza and has condemned Israel on many occassions:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/davos/7859417.stm
The Flotilla attack is typical of Israels approach, they go for soft targets, in the knowledge that they are unlikely to be taken to task for their actions. They saw an opportunity for retribution, as it was a Turkish ship with Turkish activists onboard.
BTW their was also a rocket attack on a Turkish army base on the same day reportedly by the PKK (terrorist group in Turkey). Their are suggestions that Israel have strong links with the PKK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/davos/7859417.stm
The Flotilla attack is typical of Israels approach, they go for soft targets, in the knowledge that they are unlikely to be taken to task for their actions. They saw an opportunity for retribution, as it was a Turkish ship with Turkish activists onboard.
BTW their was also a rocket attack on a Turkish army base on the same day reportedly by the PKK (terrorist group in Turkey). Their are suggestions that Israel have strong links with the PKK.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by lutyens
I tried hard not to call people names. It doesn't help and without doubt there are two sides to each story.
Having reread my post I would clarify that I don't have a problem with an Israeli homeland. The British, with others, created it in 1948 to solve a series of political problems in the post war world. Whatever the issues with that decision that is where we are.
However I also believe in a Palastinian homeland.
It is the current beligerence of both sides that has stopped a peace, it is just unfortunate that one side has unlimited wealth/power to subjugate the other. That wealth is political, in weaponary and financial. And the use of that power is unacceptable in my opinion.
JAB, I am happy to say that I buy little if anything from any of those countries............but you are right if I am honest that is by chance rather than real intention. But there is also a difference in context here too I think. Me not buying stuff from america will not seriously effect any decision the usa takes, in Israel like South Africa maybe. Being one of frightful liberal sorts, I am more likely to choose not to buy american stuff to limit the greenhouse damage of the transport of the produce to these shores!
atb
james
Having reread my post I would clarify that I don't have a problem with an Israeli homeland. The British, with others, created it in 1948 to solve a series of political problems in the post war world. Whatever the issues with that decision that is where we are.
However I also believe in a Palastinian homeland.
It is the current beligerence of both sides that has stopped a peace, it is just unfortunate that one side has unlimited wealth/power to subjugate the other. That wealth is political, in weaponary and financial. And the use of that power is unacceptable in my opinion.
JAB, I am happy to say that I buy little if anything from any of those countries............but you are right if I am honest that is by chance rather than real intention
. But there is also a difference in context here too I think. Me not buying stuff from america will not seriously effect any decision the usa takes, in Israel like South Africa maybe. Being one of frightful liberal sorts, I am more likely to choose not to buy american stuff to limit the greenhouse damage of the transport of the produce to these shores!atb
james
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:Originally posted by Skip:
I wish the Muslims well but they have countries full of sponsorship with billions in resources.
The US bankrolls Israel. Also supplies much of its weaponry, from Hellfire to helicopters.
quote:Go Israel. Right or wrong. That is my view.
Even if say, they blew up your family in a bomb blast?
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:Originally posted by JAB:
I trust for the sake of consistency that you avoid buying products from the USA, Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, South Korea, Japan, Portugal, Singapore, Ukraine and the United Kingdom who all participated in the illegal war in Iraq
Sorry but the war was not illegal.
quote:contributed to the deaths of some 100,000 civilians?
Most of whom where killed by their "brother" Muslims.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Is that a pro- or anti-Israel comment?
And since when has Israel been at war with Turkey?
Marc, your last line does you no favours at all, regardless if it is for or against Israel.
And since when has Israel been at war with Turkey?
Marc, your last line does you no favours at all, regardless if it is for or against Israel.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
Is that a pro- or anti-Israel comment?
And since when has Israel been at war with Turkey?
Marc, your last line does you no favours at all, regardless if it is for or against Israel.
The peace with Turkey was brokered by the West. This during the remaining days of the Cold war.
What appears is that Turkey has made the decision to no longer uphold such treaty and move against the west and Israel. That Turkey has moved towards support for Syrians and the Iranians has burned any remaining bridge.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
So you have no problem with the IDF machine gunning civilians.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
So you have no problem with the IDF machine gunning civilians.
Mike,
Your above statement is interesting but not important.
There are dozens of books on war crimes alleged against the USA and the Brits. Just do a search and see how much material there is. War is horrible. There are no referees and as much as I would like to believe the "Geneva convention" may be followed,Normally,it has not.
Look at the Japanese during WW11. OMG, such atrocities. The Germans? How many Brits(civilians) were killed during the night raids over London
There is a difference between collateral damage and genocide.
When you have the military involved, bombs,guns,chemicals,and proximity do go hand in hand.
"Al-Qaida announced Monday that its No. 3 official, Mustafa al-Yazid, had been killed along with members of his family - perhaps one of the most severe blows to the terror movement since the U.S. campaign against al-Qaida began. A U.S. official said al-Yazid was believed to have died in a U.S. missile strike."
What say you?
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by lutyens
Marc
You are right, no ones hands are clean in this and the same can be said about 'collateral' damage from a suicide bomber....................................................and that's the problem.
I happen to believe that the subjugation is real problem in this instance. If you give people respect and understanding, I believe you have a chance at a compromise. Give them none, as I believe the Israelis give to the Palastinians then you create the problem you have no solution to. Argueing that one or other started it, hurt more people, etc is facile and immature.
Whether one like's it or not the Israelis subjugate the Palastinians and use unacceptable physical force to do so.
and peace no nearer..........
james
You are right, no ones hands are clean in this and the same can be said about 'collateral' damage from a suicide bomber....................................................and that's the problem.
I happen to believe that the subjugation is real problem in this instance. If you give people respect and understanding, I believe you have a chance at a compromise. Give them none, as I believe the Israelis give to the Palastinians then you create the problem you have no solution to. Argueing that one or other started it, hurt more people, etc is facile and immature.
Whether one like's it or not the Israelis subjugate the Palastinians and use unacceptable physical force to do so.
and peace no nearer..........
james
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by lutyens:
Marc
You are right, no ones hands are clean in this and the same can be said about 'collateral' damage from a suicide bomber....................................................and that's the problem.
I happen to believe that the subjugation is real problem in this instance. If you give people respect and understanding, I believe you have a chance at a compromise. Give them none, as I believe the Israelis give to the Palastinians then you create the problem you have no solution to. Argueing that one or other started it, hurt more people, etc is facile and immature.
Whether one like's it or not the Israelis subjugate the Palastinians and use unacceptable physical force to do so.
and peace no nearer..........
james
This war has been going on for 5000 years.
We are bystanders looking through the window.
To get a better understanding,read the Torah or the Old Testament.
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:What say you?
That; the war in Afghanistan is sanctioned by the UN ( unlike the Israeli occupation of Gaza; that WW2 is of zero relevance and stop attemting to change the subject; that the UK is astonishingly rarely involved in war crimes ( and has been the victim of War Crimes by the Hagganah who booby trapped the bodies of two murdered British soldiers, about the same time they blew up the King David Hotel ); that the IDF has long killed its opponents by Hellfire and does not give a shit if any innocent bystanders get a piece as well ( all Arabs, after all ), that the IDF used White Phosphorous in Gaza last year and most recently, the IDF boarded a vessel in International waters and killed ten or so civilians.
Your own quote can be used against you: "perhaps one of the most severe blows to the terror movement"
Israel is waging genocide against Gaza.
What say *you*?
PS -Wasn't it you that could not see any problem with the US "Right to bear Arms" because the US needs a well-armed Militia?
What say
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by nap-ster
Why were there nearly 700 activists, from several different countries, on board?
Posted on: 01 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by Mike Lacey:quote:What say you?
That; the war in Afghanistan is sanctioned by the UN ( unlike the Israeli occupation of Gaza; that WW2 is of zero relevance and stop attemting to change the subject; that the UK is astonishingly rarely involved in war crimes ( and has been the victim of War Crimes by the Hagganah who booby trapped the bodies of two murdered British soldiers, about the same time they blew up the King David Hotel ); that the IDF has long killed its opponents by Hellfire and does not give a shit if any innocent bystanders get a piece as well ( all Arabs, after all ), that the IDF used White Phosphorous in Gaza last year and most recently, the IDF boarded a vessel in International waters and killed ten or so civilians.
Your own quote can be used against you: "perhaps one of the most severe blows to the terror movement"
Israel is waging genocide against Gaza.
What say *you*?
PS -Wasn't it you that could not see any problem with the US "Right to bear Arms" because the US needs a well-armed Militia?
What say
Mike,
You are changing the subject.
You have no idea to what extent the Brits,American,and all others have done. There were more crimes than will ever be reported.These souls are dead.
Defend,but with facts.
Not my quote mike. That was from the newspaper.
http://apnews.excite.com/artic...00601/D9G2DR6G0.html
As far as me being an American...Having the right to own a gun? I think you're jumping the shark....The relevance is nano.
Making an association based on a legal right may be considered prejudice or provincial(in this instance).
I hear you. You do not agree with what Israel has done. Ok.
regards
Marc