A Question About Israel

quote:

Originally posted by JAB:
very true fatcat. last time me and the lads were stopped by the filth on a night out and they proposed what was clearly an illegal stop and search we gave em what for!

JAB.
It may be my sense of humour has gone all wobbly, but??????

Paul.

The world is a complex place.

But there are ways and means of doing things. It troubles me when a highly armed army has to flatten a nation to stop a group of terrorists firing mortars.

As for this week's incident. The way it was played out, the IDF took an aggressive approach to the flotilla and based on their approach, is anyone surprised what happened ?

Using other tactics, they could have created a stand-off where the outcome would have been some boats would have gotten through, but the big one turned away. Nobody losses face, no casualties.

Somebody in their government decided that they wanted this confrontation, so does this qualify as arrogance ?

Mr Lacey, I will let your words speak for themselves. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to find it repugnant.

I do not believe there is anything to gain from continuing this conversation when your mind is clearly made up and I shall leave this thread well alone from here on.

I am sure we both share the same hopes for peace and a speedy resolution of this conflict with a fair and just outcome for both Palestinians and Israelis.

Best wishes

Josh

quote:

Originally posted by JAB:
Mr Lacey, I will let your words speak for themselves. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to find it repugnant.

I do not believe there is anything to gain from continuing this conversation when your mind is clearly made up and I shall leave this thread well alone from here on.

Get off your high horse.

I am dismayed by the actions of the IDF in this instance and despite my admiration for the State of Israel I despair of their treatment of Palestinians and their blockade of of the Occupied Territories. I'm sure yo'll be aware if the countless UN Resolutions in this regard. That you feel "repugnance" at this concern is a matter for your conscience. I suspect I am considerably more even-minded towards the whole sorry mess than you are; you seem to be totally unable to consider any wrongdoing by Israel.

quote:

I am sure we both share the same hopes for peace and a speedy resolution of this conflict with a fair and just outcome for both Palestinians and Israelis.

Best wishes

Josh

In an ideal world, yes of course. Israel could start by preventing further new builds in the Occupied Territories, for example.

I find myself agreeing with Mike L - Scary!

quote:

I find myself agreeing with Mike L - Scary!

Is'nt it though...
Seriously, I noticed in Camerons veiled condemnation of Israel that he said he counted himself as a "Friend of Israel".This would'nt be the same group, Friends of Israel, with many hundreds of M.P's as members, each recieving somewhere in the region of £30K from the group towards 'expenses'that Channel 4 Dispatches exposed pior to the election would it?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:

Your comment appears to be aimed at me. I don't like veiled ( and wholly inaccurate ) ad hominem accusations of racism. I struggle to see how this can be seen as me "waiving the Race card".

I presume you have no problem with my dislike of veiled accusations of racism.

As usual you presume far too much.

quote:

I am dismayed by the actions of the IDF in this instance and despite my admiration for the State of Israel I despair of their treatment of Palestinians and their blockade of of the Occupied Territories. I'm sure yo'll be aware if the countless UN Resolutions in this regard. That you feel "repugnance" at this concern is a matter for your conscience. I suspect I am considerably more even-minded towards the whole sorry mess than you are; you seem to be totally unable to consider any wrongdoing by Israel.

LOL!!
That is all. Carry on....

For the guys who do not (want to?) remember, a bit of context:

The Gaza strip was vacated by the Israelis five years ago, every inch of it, no soldiers no settlers left behind. End of occupation there.

Hamas and the residents of the trip could have taken this opportunity of relative freedom and quiet to exercise their self-rule, rebuild their society, shore up their economy and establish a solid foundation for their future independent state. This seems to be taking place these days in the West Bank with the PA which is favoring peace negotiations.

Instead, Hamas decided to continue its arm struggle and used Gaza for years as a platform to launch thousand of rockets targeting Israeli towns and settlements. Vast amounts of weapons have been smuggled through sea and land increasing the range and payloads of those weapons.

The sea blockade was imposed by Israel in attempt to stop the arm smuggling arriving to Gaza by sea mostly from Lebanon and Iran.

A moment of clarity: Gaza represents a giant human shield for the activities of Hamas and Iran, both oppressive enemies of the US, and enemies of the UK as well. Obama and his team are weak and pitiful in this region because they would rather spend more money at home and less over there.

Too bad for the cause of freedom.

You know where I stand.

quote:

Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
For the guys who do not (want to?) remember, a bit of context:

The Gaza strip was vacated by the Israelis five years ago, every inch of it, no soldiers no settlers left behind. End of occupation there.

Hamas and the residents of the trip could have taken this opportunity of relative freedom and quiet to exercise their self-rule, rebuild their society, shore up their economy and establish a solid foundation for their future independent state. This seems to be taking place these days in the West Bank with the PA which is favoring peace negotiations.

Instead, Hamas decided to continue its arm struggle and used Gaza for years as a platform to launch thousand of rockets targeting Israeli towns and settlements. Vast amounts of weapons have been smuggled through sea and land increasing the range and payloads of those weapons.

The sea blockade was imposed by Israel in attempt to stop the arm smuggling arriving to Gaza by sea mostly from Lebanon and Iran.

I love facts.

True the Israelis left Gaza in september 2005, 'every in of it' and then left it 'secure' ( with a fence around it and lots of guns pointing at it if I remember correctly!) and Marc, with how many controlled access points into the territory? Six or seven, maybe ten? That's surely enough for all those people! I think they even closed the one from Egypt down for six months almost immediately?

Of course they have all those little tunnels so what are we all complaining about.

I love facts too.

I have said it before but let me make it clear again, I am happy to support Israel and a land for it's people. What I am not prepared to suppport is the state of Israel ( or anyone else) subjugating another group, a people who want their own land and peace. Just like Israel maybe?

james

quote:

Originally posted by lutyens:
True the Israelis left Gaza in september 2005, 'every in of it' and then left it 'secure' ( with a fence around it and lots of guns pointing at it if I remember correctly!) and Marc, with how many controlled access points into the territory? Six or seven, maybe ten? That's surely enough for all those people! I think they even closed the one from Egypt down for six months almost immediately?

Of course they have all those little tunnels so what are we all complaining about.

I love facts too.

I have said it before but let me make it clear again, I am happy to support Israel and a land for it's people. What I am not prepared to suppport is the state of Israel ( or anyone else) subjugating another group, a people who want their own land and peace. Just like Israel maybe?

james

james-

subjugating?
I'm not sure in my mind if that is the best use of the word?

Control...Probably? Conquer.....Probably not?

Marc

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Newman:

quote:

I am dismayed by the actions of the IDF in this instance and despite my admiration for the State of Israel I despair of their treatment of Palestinians and their blockade of of the Occupied Territories. I'm sure yo'll be aware if the countless UN Resolutions in this regard. That you feel "repugnance" at this concern is a matter for your conscience. I suspect I am considerably more even-minded towards the whole sorry mess than you are; you seem to be totally unable to consider any wrongdoing by Israel.

LOL!!
That is all. Carry on....

Marc

Not sure what your point is here.

quote:

Originally posted by Derry:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:

Your comment appears to be aimed at me. I don't like veiled ( and wholly inaccurate ) ad hominem accusations of racism. I struggle to see how this can be seen as me "waiving the Race card".

I presume you have no problem with my dislike of veiled accusations of racism.

As usual you presume far too much.

So you see no problem with inaccurate accusations of Racism.

Fair enough, thats all anyone needs to know about you.

quote:

Originally posted by Haim Ronen:

Hamas and the residents of the trip could have taken this opportunity of relative freedom and quiet to exercise their self-rule, rebuild their society, shore up their economy and establish a solid foundation for their future independent state. This seems to be taking place these days in the West Bank with the PA which is favoring peace negotiations.

Hi Haim

Worse, I gather that Hamas are refusing to allow the supplies bought in by the intercepted convoy until all of the detainees have been released.

They are using the suffering of their people to further their own political aims, which is a disgrace.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:

quote:

Originally posted by Derry:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:

Your comment appears to be aimed at me. I don't like veiled ( and wholly inaccurate ) ad hominem accusations of racism. I struggle to see how this can be seen as me "waiving the Race card".

I presume you have no problem with my dislike of veiled accusations of racism.

As usual you presume far too much.

So you see no problem with inaccurate accusations of Racism.

Fair enough, thats all anyone needs to know about you.

I don't see any accusations of racism, accurate or otherwise.

So you see no problem in wrongly accusing someone of accusing you of racism. Fair enough...

A few facts I think are worth adding to the discussion:

Hamas' stated mission is to wipe out Israel through death in the name of Allah or otherwise.
To me it seems obvious that Israel would blockade Gaza after Hamas took it over

Egypt controls their border with Gaza, which they also closed after Hamas took over.
I do realize Egypt may have just opened their border somewhat following the flotilla incident

There's been an Israeli naval blockade of Gaza since 2007. In addition to bringing supplies, the flotilla's objective was to bring attention to the blockade, and predictably (I think intentionally?) ran into military resistance. They weren't simply trying to deliver aid.

Looks like Israel has been more successful in trying to wipe out the Palestinians than Hamas
the Israelis.

quote:

Originally posted by Derry:

I don't see any accusations of racism, accurate or otherwise.

So you see no problem in wrongly accusing someone of accusing you of racism. Fair enough...

If you don't have the brains to spot such a slur, you really should not criticise somebody that can.

Perhaps you could contribute something to the subject under discussion?

quote:

Originally posted by JAB:

I do not believe there is anything to gain from continuing this conversation when your mind is clearly made up and I shall leave this thread well alone from here on.

Upon reflection; if I'd posted something intended to deflate the point of another only to find that in fact, my quoted source actually strongly supported his point of view, I'd try to weasel out in such a similar manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:

Not always, Haim.

Two (?) years ago a Warrior Armoured Fighting vehicle was surrounded by a mob in Iraq. It carries a 30mm cannon, 7.62 chain gun ( and some 2-3000 rounds of ammunition ) plus a dismounted section of seven Riflemen in the troop compartment.

The mob stoned and petrol bombed the Warrior, and some of the crew inside where set alight. In exiting the turret of the Warrior the (burning) commander was set upon by the crowd, and beaten. Despite this, the crew did not engage the mob with their machine guns or drive through them; they pretty much just took it.

I honestly believe that any other Army in the world would have just closed the hatches and hosed the crowd with machime gun fire.

I wonder, Mike, what would have happened if a member of the crowd allowed to beat up the brave British commander would have instead slit his throat. Would you consider then the soldiers performance to be exceptional or negligent? If I told you that two people had to die at the scene, two British soldiers who had refused to use their arms or two attacking locals because the British soldiers used their arms to defend themselves, what would be your choice? I think that it is a no-brainer. I believe that the primary duty of any soldier (regardless of his mission) is to protect his own life and the lives of his team members.

That is exactly what happened on the Turkish vessel. Two Israeli soldiers were shot, three lost consciousness from severe beating and were being dragged away by passengers and one was thrown 30 feet onto a lower deck. The commandos had no choice but open fire to defend themselves and rescue their wounded team members.

Needless to say, this whole affair goes way beyond humanitarian aid, otherwise those organizations would have accepted Israel's original proposal to inspect and transfer the goods to the Gaza strip by land. Instead, they chose a confrontation with the Israeli navy (to which they prepared themselves) and were very successful in portraying themselves to the world as innocent victims of the brutal IDF which seemed not to hesitate in opening fire on humanitarian aid convoy. It is such a pity that for the sake of those questionable propaganda exercises people had to lose their lives.

I am an American and I admire Netanyahu more than Obams:

"This was not The Love Boat!"

Short simple sentences amid a lot of diplomatic mumbo jumbo. The Muslims are a political bloc which is much bigger around the world than the Jewish vote. I am sticking with the Israelis.

Wouldn't we rather discuss the Naim DAC?

Please correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that the ships were in international waters? By some distance? The commandos boarded the ships at night?

Now there is little doubt, I would agree, that a confrontation of sorts was expected and probably intended. And that the people on the ships were fully aware of the potential of the situation. It would not be unreasonable to assume that they would probably be stopped at some point and probably at the edge of the territorial waters.

What they got was a group of very loud helicopters and men jumping from them in the darkness in international waters. Haim, you suggest that soldiers should reasonably be expect to defend themselves when attacked, the question begged therefore is why shouldn't the people on the boat react in the same way?

Of course some reacted viciously ( I don't approve of the fact they did, a peaceful response as appears to have been urged would have been better) although preparing themselves with sticks and knives against the 'might' of an army seems to be a little less than sensible if agression is intended.

There are no martyrs in this situation, no matter what the politicians say, just dead people and empty families.

Skip, I don't want to see the jews wiped out. And I doubt if Mike does either. Just because I deplore Israel's actions in this instance doesn't make me an unthinking Muslim 'voter'. They like Jews, americans, british, chinese etc have all done things I and many other people object to. Polarising the discussion, ie no discussion, means that we do not move forward to a peace or nor allows us chastise either side for moral lapses along the way. That critisism is essential to create a fairer and better society in the long term for everyone.

And you just know that Hamas will now retaliate under the 'right to retaliate' nonsense.

Heaven save us from them both.


atb
james

channel 10 is reporting that Bibi may ease restrictions by allowing boats through with prior inspection though organisers are saying they may recall the "Rachel Corrie"