A Question About Israel

But the administration was "elected" so perhaps the responsibility for this crisis is shared?

In voting, the electors exercise their right, and presumably share the responsibility for the eventual administration's actions.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
But the administration was "elected"

As was Hamas, which is part of the problem.

M

I could have gone on to say so, but the reality is that these two peoples need to talk to each other, respecting each other as equals.

ATB from George

On which we agree, George.

I hope you are well,

M

Fine, if as usual at this time of year under pressure of work, but better that than being worried about future empleyment ...

I hope you are well yourself.

You may have noticed that I am fixing up my old Carlton bike - just as I want it - a fusion of speed and the old style ...

Then I think I will part with my old car! A step forwards I am sure! I plan some nice bike tours in Poland, Norway, and hopefully other European countries as well! Best get some ALAC on some good iPods!

Best wishes from George

quote:

Originally posted by Paper Plane:
What astounds me about Israeli governments is their arrogance in thinking they can do what the hell they like in the name of 'security' and to hell with anyone else. The impression they give is that their country is more important than anyone else in the world.

Nobody with any humanity would deny Israel's right to exist as a state/country but not at the expense of any other country.

Nonation is more important than any other, to think otherwise is not only delusional but also insanely egotistical.

steve

Steve,

In the last 10 years Israel suffered over a 1,000 civilian deaths, what would be equivalent to the UK loosing 10,000 of its civilians or the US loosing 45,000 civilians. What is a mental exercise for some (to board or not to board a Turkish ship heading to Gaza) is a real security challenge for Israel taken seriously. I do not think that Israel puts itself ahead of other nations. The violent reality it faces forces her to take more drastic steps to defend its citizens.

As for arrogance, since you mentioned it, I see plenty more of it in Europe as well as on this forum. So many of you have this patronizing attitude as if the Israelis are war criminals while you are conducting your wars like gentlemen.

I will not repeat the stats but it is obvious that you managed to kill far more civilians in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan, countries which had never attacked you than Israel did in its fights in Lebanon and Gaza. How come? No one here tried to come up with a reasonable explanation.

How is it that the Israelis are committing genocide and you are not? Why is Netanyahu a disgrace to his people and Tony Blaire is not? How come the Israeli pilot bombing in Gaza is a war criminal and his Nato counterpart who is evaporating half a clan (because he does not have the balls or the brains to fly lower and realize that the people shooting in the air down there are just family members celebrating a wedding) is not? Why is the death of five Palestinian kids so much more disturbing news in Europe than the deaths of five Afghan kids? One would think that you would be much more concerned with the casualties inflicted by your own armies. A lot of questions here. It would be nice to get some answers.

This post is not an attempt to deflect the discussion away from last week's events but a reminder that objectivity and some humility might help us examine better the facts on the ground (O.K., on the water) and exchange views instead of insults and name callings.

Haim

Israel is open to criticism. I am sorry for the Palestinians, but I do not feel sorry for those poor souls on those boats who provoked the attack. The Uzi is a killing machine; it has no sporting purpose.

The flotilla participants knew what they would face. Now they are bringing their sponsor, Iran and its Republican Guard Navy, into the picture as an escort to the next flotilla. "This is not the love boat." I am very fond of Netanyahu because he is the hard ass which Israel sorely needed. I have no doubt he would sink those boats and kill everybody on them. That is part of his appeal.

It is remarkable to me that the Iranians are attempting to provoke Netanyahu at this point. If they are ready to get into a fight now, either their nuke is ready to go, or they are even crazier than we thought.

We can intellectualize this as much as we want to, and speaking for myself, I think we have, right here in this forum. Either you are for Israel, warts and all, or you are for Iran/Hamas/Turkey/Syria, warts and all. You need to decide and declare yourself now, because there is no middle ground with the Iranian escort.

Turkey, the catalyst for this crisis, is a NATO country now, and the putative next member of the EU. Is that bugging anybody over there?

Candidly, I do not know how anybody could oppose Israel without siding with the same Iranians who are murdering their own people and stifling protest in the name of Allah. Iran is the enemy of freedom and of the US. Israel is our friend, warts and all.

Obama has a tough job. I wish he were up to it.

Haim. lol
I can only agree with you on what 'we' have done in several countries , despite having the theoretical 'law' on our side. Like many in this country I did, have and continue to oppose these events. I am certainly not proud of them.

Skip
I fear you have just stated what concerns so many of us in this discussion about it. I do not need to be for or against Israel or Palastine/Hamas. I can try and stand up for those who are less able to do so or be heard. I will indeed get it wrong and discussing it may change my mind. Here however my concern is with ordinary palastinians who have suffered in so many ways because of the blockade which in my view is unacceptable. Haim is right, many Israeli's have died in past years. This too is unacceptable. But I believe that the oppression ( and subjugation, I chose the word carefully really I did Marc) of the palastinians is part of the root cause of what is going on and unless Israel is big and bold enough to find another way, the situation will not change. As has been pointed out above, an eye for and eye simply leads to blindness!

I am fully aware that the flottila was out to make a point and that 'trouble' was likely. But what happened was indefensible.

To suggest my criticism of Israel, or anyone else's, means that I support Iran etc, is just fatuous nonsense.

atb
james

Israel apologises for spoof video mocking Gaza flotilla
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor...le_east/10253357.stm

No sorry Skip, I just dont get your argument.
If any country is willing to use a nuclear arsenal then indeed they are clearly dumber than any of us thought, did'nt Hiroshima and Nagasaki teach anything ?
Israel, like many other countries (including our own) must be condemned for the atrocities carried out by them, as should countries carrying out atrocities against them.
For my part I will continue to hopefully see the world with a little more colour than your black and white view seems to allow you.
It is better to support Superman (opposing evil wherever it is done) than to behave like Lex Luther where might is always right.
Does the thought of Turkey joining the E.U. bug me? Clearly in it's present guise yes. Does the thought that reform in Turkey, to allow membership would be a bad thing, no I dont think so. Turkey has always occupied a strategic position between West and East, more so now as a means of transporting oil to the West. Israels behaviour on the high sees have not helped one little bit in developing a more pro Western attitude within Turkey (if indeed that was possible).

quote:

Originally posted by Howlinhounddog:

If any country is willing to use a nuclear arsenal then indeed they are clearly dumber than any of us thought, did'nt Hiroshima and Nagasaki teach anything ?

Yes, it teaches that nukes work.

quote:

Israel, like many other countries (including our own) must be condemned for the atrocities carried out by them,

What atrocities have been perpetuated by the UK since the founding of Israel?

quote:

Originally posted by Haim Ronen:


I will not repeat the stats but it is obvious that you managed to kill far more civilians in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan, countries which had never attacked you than Israel did in its fights in Lebanon and Gaza. How come? No one here tried to come up with a reasonable explanation.

Simply wrong, Haim. The VAST majority of civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are caused by Muslims killing Muslims of different sects. The UN intervention in Kosovo saved thousands of lives; it stopped a civil war and the only worry is why the UN did not go in hard earlier.

quote:

How is it that the Israelis are committing genocide and you are not?

Blair ( rather the US with UK help ) did not set out to subjugate a nation or starve its people, unlike Israel. The Coalition waged conventional war against a conventional Army

quote:

How come the Israeli pilot bombing in Gaza is a war criminal and his Nato counterpart who is evaporating half a clan (because he does not have the balls or the brains to fly lower and realize that the people shooting in the air down there are just family members celebrating a wedding) is not?

Which IDF pilot? The reason the pilots do not fly lower ( but they often do ) is that they become vulnerable to small arms. The difference between locally dressed tribesman shooting weapons in to the air in celebration vs, trying to shoot down an aircraft is microscopic. Picture it yourself. The coalition are VERY mindful of civilian casulaties and will stop an operation of there is a risk of same.

quote:

Why is the death of five Palestinian kids so much more disturbing news in Europe than the deaths of five Afghan kids?

What brings you to that conclusion?

quote:

One would think that you would be much more concerned with the casualties inflicted by your own armies.

"Our" own Armies did not board the ships. The IDF did.

quote:

A lot of questions here. It would be nice to get some answers.

You probably won't like them, but you now have some.

quote:

This post is not an attempt to deflect the discussion away from last week's events

Of course it is, Haim.

Regards

Mike

quote:

What atrocities have been perpetuated by the UK since the founding of Israel?

This really depends on your views on the legality of the war in Iraq. Your views Mike are clearly different from mine.
regards
Charlie.

The legality of the war in Iraq - which is now subject to question although it seemed to be legitimate at the time - has no impact on wether an act was an atrocity.

The hands of the UK are remarkably clean in that regard.

O'Keefe full statement (Mavi Marmara survivor, ex US Marine, Gulf War veteran)
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Today at 09:43
Ken O’Keefe, former US Marine, Gulf War veteran, and now survivor of the Mavi Marmara massacre, has issued a remarkable and searing statement from Istanbul.

Full statement -

I have for many years understood that we, people of conscience, are the true holders of power in this world. Frustratingly however we have largely relinquished that power and failed to reach our full potential. Our potential to create a better world, a just world. Nonetheless I have conspired with others of like mind to reveal and exercise our true power. In 2002 I initiated the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq because I knew that the invasion of Iraq had been planned well in advance, that it was part of a ‘Global Spectrum Dominance’ agenda as laid out by the Project For A New American Century.

I knew that protests had no chance of stopping the invasion, and that largely these protests were just a way of making us feel better about the coming mass murder; by being able to say I protested against it. With that understanding I argued that the only viable way to stop the invasion was to conduct a mass migration to Iraq. A migration in which people from around the world, especially western citizens, would position themselves at sites in Iraq that are supposed to be protected by international law, but which are routinely bombed when it is only Iraqi, Palestinian, generally non-white, western lives who will be killed. I felt 10,000 such people could stop the invasion, or at the very least, expose the invasion for what it was from the start, an act of international aggression, a war crime and a crime against humanity.

When our two double-decker buses travelled from London to Baghdad through Turkey, it was ever clear that the people of Turkey also could sense the power of this act, and they were the biggest participants in it. In the end we did not get the numbers required to stop the war, with at least one million Iraqi’s dead as a result, but I remain convinced that it was within our power to prevent the invasion. A massive opportunity lost as far as I am concerned.

In 2007 I joined the Free Gaza Movement with its plan to challenge the blockade of Gaza by travelling to Gaza by sea. From the moment I heard of the plan I knew it could succeed and ultimately I served as a captain on the first attempt. The Israeli government said throughout our preparation that we were no better than pirates and they would treat us as such. They made clear we would not reach Gaza. And still I knew we could succeed. And we did. Two boats with 46 passengers from various countries managed to sail into Gaza on August 23, 2008; this was the first time this had been done in 41 years. The truth is the blockade of Gaza is far more than three years old, and yet we, a small group of conscientious people defied the Israeli machine and celebrated with tens of thousands of Gazans when we arrived that day. We proved that it could be done. We proved that an intelligent plan, with skilled manipulation of the media, could render the full might of the Israeli Navy useless. And I knew then that this was only the tip of the iceberg.

So participating in the Freedom Flotilla is like a family reunion to me. It is my long lost family whose conscience is their guide, who have shed the fear, who act with humanity. But I was especially proud to join IHH and the Turkish elements of the flotilla. I deeply admire the strength and character of the Turkish people, despite your history having stains of injustice, like every nation, you are today from citizen to Prime Minister among the leaders in the cause of humanity and justice.

I remember being asked during the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq if I was a pacifist, I responded with a quote from Gandhi by saying I am not a passive anything. To the contrary I believe in action, and I also believe in self-defence, 100%, without reservation. I would be incapable of standing by while a tyrant murders my family, and the attack on the Mavi Marmara was like an attack on my Palestinian family. I am proud to have stood shoulder to shoulder with those who refused to let a rogue Israeli military exert their will without a fight. And yes, we fought.

When I was asked, in the event of an Israeli attack on the Mavi Mamara, would I use the camera, or would I defend the ship? I enthusiastically committed to defence of the ship. Although I am also a huge supporter of non-violence, in fact I believe non-violence must always be the first option. Nonetheless I joined the defence of the Mavi Mamara understanding that violence could be used against us and that we may very well be compelled to use violence in self-defence.

I said this straight to Israeli agents, probably of Mossad or Shin Bet, and I say it again now, on the morning of the attack I was directly involved in the disarming of two Israeli Commandos. This was a forcible, non-negotiable, separation of weapons from commandos who had already murdered two brothers that I had seen that day. One brother with a bullet entering dead center in his forehead, in what appeared to be an execution. I knew the commandos were murdering when I removed a 9mm pistol from one of them. I had that gun in my hands and as an ex-US Marine with training in the use of guns it was completely within my power to use that gun on the commando who may have been the murderer of one of my brothers. But that is not what I, nor any other defender of the ship did. I took that weapon away, removed the bullets, proper lead bullets, separated them from the weapon and hid the gun. I did this in the hopes that we would repel the attack and submit this weapon as evidence in a criminal trial against Israeli authorities for mass murder.

I also helped to physically separate one commando from his assault rifle, which another brother apparently threw into the sea. I and hundreds of others know the truth that makes a mockery of the brave and moral Israeli military. We had in our full possession, three completely disarmed and helpless commandos. These boys were at our mercy, they were out of reach of their fellow murderers, inside the ship and surrounded by 100 or more men. I looked into the eyes of all three of these boys and I can tell you they had the fear of God in them. They looked at us as if we were them, and I have no doubt they did not believe there was any way they would survive that day. They looked like frightened children in the face of an abusive father.

But they did not face an enemy as ruthless as they. Instead the woman provided basic first aid, and ultimately they were released, battered and bruised for sure, but alive. Able to live another day. Able to feel the sun over head and the embrace of loved ones. Unlike those they murdered. Despite mourning the loss of our brothers, feeling rage towards these boys, we let them go. The Israeli prostitutes of propaganda can spew all of their disgusting bile all they wish, the commandos are the murderers, we are the defenders, and yet we fought. We fought not just for our lives, not just for our cargo, not just for the people of Palestine, we fought in the name of justice and humanity. We were right to do so, in every way.

While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really. We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out… and I was beaten again while in my cell.

In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards… and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.

In conclusion; I would like to challenge every endorser of Gandhi, every person who thinks they understand him, who acknowledges him as one of the great souls of our time (which is just about every western leader), I challenge you in the form of a question. Please explain how we, the defenders of the Mavi Marmara, are not the modern example of Gandhi’s essence? But first read the words of Gandhi himself.

I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence…. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour. – Gandhi

And lastly I have one more challenge. I challenge any critic of merit, publicly, to debate me on a large stage over our actions that day. I would especially love to debate with any Israeli leader who accuses us of wrongdoing, it would be my tremendous pleasure to face off with you. All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns, so I am ripe to see you in a new context. I want to debate with you on the largest stage possible. Take that as an open challenge and let us see just how brave Israeli leaders are.
Ken O’Keefe, former US Marine, Gulf War veteran, and survivor of the Mav


http://pulsemedia.org/2010/06/...of-the-mavi-marmara/

klik the link for video of him

"The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel — a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what President John F. Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza — as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.


Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted weapons-laden ships from Iran destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically delegitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself — forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense — fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own. Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies — and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land — evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense — military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Barack Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaida) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-2009. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses — a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international delegitimation.

But, if none of these are permissible, what's left? Nothing. The point of this relentless campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million — that number again — hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists — Iranian in particular — openly prepare a more final solution."

We just received an e-mail with the following heading:

-----Original Message-----
From: Vente Flash Vin-Israel com [mailto:contact@vin-israel.com]
Sent: 08 June 2010 12:01
To: info@vsfgroup.com
Subject: Prix massacrés pendant 48 H

______________________________________

What an unfortunate turn of phrase for an Israeli company to use. We thought.

Pedantic, maybe, but a little myopia might be gleaned from the phrase

"In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan."

I have a suspicion that the UK, Australia, Canada et al might have had something to say, particularly as they'd been at war with Nazi Germany for two years before the US came on board.

I'm not even sure that the US blockaded Germany at all, to be honest. That was much more of a Royal Navy campaign.

I'd also hesitate to compare the six year, all-out struggle for Western Democracy that saw the death of 20-30 million with the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

A couple of things that baffle me that someone may be able to answer:

What's the difference between an Israeli state and a Jewish homeland?

Why do Muslims and Jews need their own states but Christians don't?

steve

quote:

Originally posted by Paper Plane:

Why do Muslims and Jews need their own states but Christians don't?

Christians had their fair share of wars over states, power and religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

The link has been removed...

Why do Muslims and Jews need their own states but Christians don't?

Steve, Muslims and Christians are like brothers in Palestines.

Met some Palestinians, couple of years back and they told me that...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
I'd also hesitate to compare the six year, all-out struggle for Western Democracy that saw the death of 20-30 million with the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

Mike,

Perhaps you will be more comfortable to compare last week's events with the Exodus 1947, a ship carrying Holocaust survivors which sailed from France hoping to break the British blockade (imposed to prevent such journeys) and arrive to Palestine's shores.
The british navy intercepted the Exodus outside territorial waters and stormed the ship. Some of the passenger resisted and the soldiers used force, killing three and injuring others. The ship was brought into harbor and the passengers were taken off by force. Here is the full story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus

I will be glad to hear your comments.

Put:

Thirty Years' War

... into the Wiki search engine and you get there.

Fortunately it is a long time since different branches of the Christian Church [or political leaders purporting to represent them] spent time waging war over it.

In reality most quasi-religeous wars are really about political ends, and the religeous tag that politicians, aristocratic, or monarchic leaders use to hide the real intent which is political rather than clerical power.

ATB from George

Dear Haim,

At the time after the WWII, during the British Mandate in Palestine there was considerable conflict between Zionists Terrorists and the British Military and Mandate Authorities posted there.

91 people died in the King David Hotel bombing by right wing Zionists in 1946, one year earlier. The hotel was the site of the central offices of the British Mandatory Authorities in Palestine, and Headquarters of the British Forces based there.

I am not saying that kiling people is acceptable, but perhaps it is well to remember the history and context, to understand how such acts could actually happen - however horrible.

ATB from George