A Question About Israel
Posted by: dave brubeck on 31 May 2010
Are they allowed to do whatever they like?
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:Originally posted by Haim Ronen:quote:Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
Thw world of 60 years ago is vastly different to today; witness the US treatment in WW2 of its own citizens who happened to be of Japanese extraction. Even the two Jewish deaths where not caused by gunfire but by bludgeoning..
Mike,
Your elaborate endless excuses for your 'never do wrong' guys in Palestine, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan are filling my eyes with tears. I am recommending you to the Israeli government. They desperately need someone like you to shore up their crumbling image among the world's nations.
No need for ad hominem attacks when you cannot refute an argument.
Not endless, and hardly "elaborate", Haim. You asked my opinion, and I put things into context which naturally annoys you as you thought you'd made a valid point. The "Exodus" events you describe happened over 60 years ago. I have at no stage said that the US (mostly) is innocent in Kos, Iraq and Afg but I have pointed out that the Muslim deaths where mostly caused by either fellow Muslims or, in the case of Kosovo, former fellow countrymen.
Uncomfortable for you, but they are the facts Haim.
You seem to be impyling the actions of the IDF in killing none in 2010 are perfectly OK because the UK killed three in 1947.
I disagree.
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by mudwolf
All wars are atrocious acts. Diplomacy and talks are best. I think if there were mutual respect and no domination problem would heal. But that ain't gonna happen in this world. Palastinians are not being helped by other arab countries as I've noticed, I wonder what's behind that? Who really wants to be at the flash point?
20 years ago I was in a class studying a park. We had a survey about picnicking and facilities. Last 2 tables taken that day were jews on one side and arabs on the other about 25 feet apart. The nasty comments about being loud and awful were being slung back and forth during the whole time we asked questions. I walked away with my classmate and said "there will never be peace in the middle east." He laughed and we told the story to classmates and the teacher back at school.
20 years ago I was in a class studying a park. We had a survey about picnicking and facilities. Last 2 tables taken that day were jews on one side and arabs on the other about 25 feet apart. The nasty comments about being loud and awful were being slung back and forth during the whole time we asked questions. I walked away with my classmate and said "there will never be peace in the middle east." He laughed and we told the story to classmates and the teacher back at school.
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Flame
Hi all;
I have followed this thread on/off and didn't want to comment on it until now. I am an Arab and my opinion can't be but biased. So rather than comment on the Israel/Palestine conflict I will direct my comment at the human nature and attitude towards war.
Since beginning of human civilization, war has been the trend. People have fought over resources, land, power and religion. To come in the 21st century and try to spread the peace culture as the "ideal" is admirable but unrealistic. Nations will continue to fight in the name of greed, security and "interests" and resistance will continue to rise in the name of freedom, autonomy and righteousness.
I disagree with what Israel is doing from the ethical perspective but I definitely admire it from the technical side. Regardless of what I think about Israel. their determination to protect their best interest has been exemplary. If I were in their shoes I would do the same. The difference is that my conscience doesn't allow me to be in their shoes.
War will continue and as mentioned earlier it is a dog eat dog world. That is he ugly truth.
Regards...
I have followed this thread on/off and didn't want to comment on it until now. I am an Arab and my opinion can't be but biased. So rather than comment on the Israel/Palestine conflict I will direct my comment at the human nature and attitude towards war.
Since beginning of human civilization, war has been the trend. People have fought over resources, land, power and religion. To come in the 21st century and try to spread the peace culture as the "ideal" is admirable but unrealistic. Nations will continue to fight in the name of greed, security and "interests" and resistance will continue to rise in the name of freedom, autonomy and righteousness.
I disagree with what Israel is doing from the ethical perspective but I definitely admire it from the technical side. Regardless of what I think about Israel. their determination to protect their best interest has been exemplary. If I were in their shoes I would do the same. The difference is that my conscience doesn't allow me to be in their shoes.
War will continue and as mentioned earlier it is a dog eat dog world. That is he ugly truth.
Regards...
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by u6213129461734706
Flame, your comments are appreciated. My best friend while growing up back in Alberta was a Lebanese Muslim. We got along very well and could discuss the issues easily. Beyond the idea of Israel as a new state, there were always Jews living in the "Holy Land" continuously since very early times. There were always Bedouin grazing their herds, and there were always Arabs, of all descriptions. Jerusalem is important to all of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, alike.
I think that an area of the size of the Gaza Strip should be added to the West Bank. Having Palestinians spread between the two areas just doesn't work. Jews should stop expanding settlements on the West Bank, Jerusalem should be divided. What's happening in the Gaza Strip is detrimental to the Palestinian's, and to Israel. Jews and Arabs have lived in this area for centuries and coexisted long before Zionism.
Cheers!
I think that an area of the size of the Gaza Strip should be added to the West Bank. Having Palestinians spread between the two areas just doesn't work. Jews should stop expanding settlements on the West Bank, Jerusalem should be divided. What's happening in the Gaza Strip is detrimental to the Palestinian's, and to Israel. Jews and Arabs have lived in this area for centuries and coexisted long before Zionism.
Cheers!
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Flame
quote:Originally posted by The Hawk:
Flame, your comments are appreciated. My best friend while growing up back in Alberta was a Lebanese Muslim. We got along very well and could discuss the issues easily. Beyond the idea of Israel as a new state, there were always Jews living in the "Holy Land" continuously since very early times. There were always Bedouin grazing their herds, and there were always Arabs, of all descriptions. Jerusalem is important to all of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, alike.
I think that an area of the size of the Gaza Strip should be added to the West Bank. Having Palestinians spread between the two areas just doesn't work. Jews should stop expanding settlements on the West Bank, Jerusalem should be divided. What's happening in the Gaza Strip is detrimental to the Palestinian's, and to Israel. Jews and Arabs have lived in this area for centuries and coexisted long before Zionism.
Cheers!
Very sensible comments. When asked about my opinion about Jews, I clearly say that I am pro-jewish but anti-zionist.
Regards...
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by Flame:
Hi all;
I have followed this thread on/off and didn't want to comment on it until now. I am an Arab and my opinion can't be but biased. So rather than comment on the Israel/Palestine conflict I will direct my comment at the human nature and attitude towards war.
Since beginning of human civilization, war has been the trend. People have fought over resources, land, power and religion. To come in the 21st century and try to spread the peace culture as the "ideal" is admirable but unrealistic. Nations will continue to fight in the name of greed, security and "interests" and resistance will continue to rise in the name of freedom, autonomy and righteousness.
I disagree with what Israel is doing from the ethical perspective but I definitely admire it from the technical side. Regardless of what I think about Israel. their determination to protect their best interest has been exemplary. If I were in their shoes I would do the same. The difference is that my conscience doesn't allow me to be in their shoes.
War will continue and as mentioned earlier it is a dog eat dog world. That is he ugly truth.
Regards...
Bingo!!
Give that man the doll...
I love it when someone spells out the simple truth. An intellectual response to an observation. Brilliant.
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Peter Dinh
Flame is definitely the model citizen of the world.
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by The Hawk:
Jerusalem is important to all of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, alike.
It is not important to me. Whilst ever we choose tribes, we will have wars.
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by alidubai
We also need to remember that the world population is increasing while natural resources are decreasing. Food water and Oil...
While we continue to fight wars we cannot afford.
The recent volcano showed us how powerless we are against the environment.
While we continue to fight wars we cannot afford.
The recent volcano showed us how powerless we are against the environment.
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by winkyincanada:quote:Originally posted by The Hawk:
Jerusalem is important to all of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, alike.
It is not important to me. Whilst ever we choose tribes, we will have wars.
Would "Gods lake" suffice?
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by Flame
quote:Originally posted by munch:He is also great if your wife or bird wants bigger boobs.quote:Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
Flame is definitely the model citizen of the world.
He will do a d cup for a Hi-Line.
I think it is just a matter of seeing the broader picture. Bigger boobs would cost you a DAC, munch
Regards...
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by ewemon
quote:Originally posted by Flame:quote:Originally posted by munch:He is also great if your wife or bird wants bigger boobs.quote:Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
Flame is definitely the model citizen of the world.
He will do a d cup for a Hi-Line.
I think it is just a matter of seeing the broader picture. Bigger boobs would cost you a DAC, munch
Regards...
He probably has man boobs anyway or as they call them up here gompers!!
Posted on: 10 June 2010 by ewemon
quote:Originally posted by munch:
What did the Romans do for us?
Gladiators the TV show.
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by fred simon
quote:Originally posted by Marc Newman:
Fred-
Among other hats you wear?
Are you a professor teaching in the Chicago area?
Marc
Marc, sorry to inject this here ... no other way to contact you to follow up.
Wondering why you asked ... do we know each other?
All best,
Fred
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by fred simon:quote:Originally posted by Marc Newman:
Fred-
Among other hats you wear?
Are you a professor teaching in the Chicago area?
Marc
Marc, sorry to inject this here ... no other way to contact you to follow up.
Wondering why you asked ... do we know each other?
All best,
Fred
I think we do...
Are you on skype?
Or, try me at 916 869 0300 Pac time...
Best,
Marc
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by CFMF
This article explains why the Isreali government can pull off this kind of shit and get away with it...
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/11-0
Clearly a double standard. "Do as I say, not as I do." This has to stop. We are all equal in God's eyes.
Best,
BBM
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/11-0
Clearly a double standard. "Do as I say, not as I do." This has to stop. We are all equal in God's eyes.
Best,
BBM
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by CFMF
Some important history and relevant background information...
http://www.thirdworldtraveler....al_War_Pretexts.html
"God Bless America". Indeed.
Best,
BBM
http://www.thirdworldtraveler....al_War_Pretexts.html
"God Bless America". Indeed.
Best,
BBM
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by Edot
Nothing will change in Israel/Palestine until the US forces Israel to stop illegal settlements and give back some land. It's hard to understand how the US government has become so pro Israel. I think it's out of step with the majority opinion here in the US and the values we supposedly espouse. I'm afraid talking about it here and elsewhere is just a waste of time. The only things that might help is if the US citizenry barrages their representatives in Washington and makes them change position or vote them out. If the Palestinian cause had a lobbying effort in Washington as effective as AIPAC, that would help too. And finally, more Israeli atrocities might hasten the process but at what cost. How bad does it have to get before the world says enough is enough? I was appalled to hear Biden boast last week of how the Obama administration is a "greater friend" of Israel than the Bush administration. A singular comment that just lost him my vote. It sure is difficult for a US citizen to feel good about the country when it has hypocrisy and hegemony as an agenda. Obama's win was a glimmer of hope but has mostly turned out to be a major disappointment.
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by Peter Dinh
quote:I think it's out of step with the majority opinion here in the US and the values we supposedly espouse.
The minority here know how to lobby i.e. they have the money.
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by CFMF
Edot
You have partially answered your own question: AIPAC.
Certain Jewish Americans are also heavily involved in what once was the PNAC, which is now the Foreign Policy Initiative. Still headed by William Kristol, though.
American Jews are also heavily involved in the mainstream media, the financial sector, and politics, etc.
The US President is elected by the American people, but is merely a puppet beholden to others. It's kind of like "the tail wagging the dog".
This will not change until the American people wake up. Hopefully, this happens sooner rather than later.
Best,
BBM
You have partially answered your own question: AIPAC.
Certain Jewish Americans are also heavily involved in what once was the PNAC, which is now the Foreign Policy Initiative. Still headed by William Kristol, though.
American Jews are also heavily involved in the mainstream media, the financial sector, and politics, etc.
The US President is elected by the American people, but is merely a puppet beholden to others. It's kind of like "the tail wagging the dog".
This will not change until the American people wake up. Hopefully, this happens sooner rather than later.
Best,
BBM
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by Haim Ronen
quote:Originally posted by Flame:
Hi all;
I have followed this thread on/off and didn't want to comment on it until now. I am an Arab and my opinion can't be but biased. So rather than comment on the Israel/Palestine conflict I will direct my comment at the human nature and attitude towards war.
Maher,
Perhaps because you are an Arab and from the "neighborhood" your opinions are more valid than someone who is just looking at the events from a distance without a direct involvement.
The term "Zionist" was hijacked by so many different entities that it lost its clear definition. For example, a lot of people consider my views opposing the settlements in the territories as being anti-Zionist. Refering to state of Israel, its policies and citizens clears a lot of the fog.
Haim
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by u6213129461734706
quote:Originally posted by CFMF:
Edot
You have partially answered your own question: AIPAC.
Certain Jewish Americans are also heavily involved in what once was the PNAC, which is now the Foreign Policy Initiative. Still headed by William Kristol, though.
American Jews are also heavily involved in the mainstream media, the financial sector, and politics, etc.
The US President is elected by the American people, but is merely a puppet beholden to others. It's kind of like "the tail wagging the dog".
This will not change until the American people wake up. Hopefully, this happens sooner rather than later.
Best,
BBM
With all due respect, sounds much like the old canard about jews controlling the world. I liked the articles on 'Zionist" control of American policy. IMHO, jews have less influence on the world than people think. I'm glad not too many people know that Ivor Tiefenbraun is jewish. God knows how that might be interpreted. It's interesting to look at how much CAIR influences American policy. US support of Israel tends to be reflexive support of a fellow 'democracy'. Notwithstanding Gaza, the world has given billions in aid to the Palestinians.
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by Flame
quote:Originally posted by Haim Ronen:quote:Originally posted by Flame:
Hi all;
I have followed this thread on/off and didn't want to comment on it until now. I am an Arab and my opinion can't be but biased. So rather than comment on the Israel/Palestine conflict I will direct my comment at the human nature and attitude towards war.
Maher,
Perhaps because you are an Arab and from the "neighborhood" your opinions are more valid than someone who is just looking at the events from a distance without a direct involvement.
The term "Zionist" was hijacked by so many different entities that it lost its clear definition. For example, a lot of people consider my views opposing the settlements in the territories as being anti-Zionist. Refering to state of Israel, its policies and citizens clears a lot of the fog.
Haim
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by CFMF
Hawk
Don't kid yourself. The US picks and chooses which democracies to support according to it's own agenda.
Best,
BBM
Don't kid yourself. The US picks and chooses which democracies to support according to it's own agenda.
Best,
BBM
Posted on: 11 June 2010 by fred simon
quote:Originally posted by Marc Newman:quote:Originally posted by fred simon:quote:Originally posted by Marc Newman:
Fred-
Among other hats you wear?
Are you a professor teaching in the Chicago area?
Marc
Marc, sorry to inject this here ... no other way to contact you to follow up.
Wondering why you asked ... do we know each other?
All best,
Fred
I think we do...
Are you on skype?
Or, try me at 916 869 0300 Pac time...
Best,
Marc
Sorry, not on Skype.
Please leave me a message at myspace.com/fredsimon
Thanks,
Fred