Worst System Ever

Caveat: I dont know which/how many component was the villain, I suspect the CD player as it was a truly awful 'CD' harsh mettalic sound. I also dont know if this is how they are supposed to sound and whether it was set up properly - it looked ok and the salesman was proud of it. He looked a bit puzzled when I left.

[This message was edited by Jez Quigley on SUNDAY 15 April 2001 at 06:52.]

I have heard to many bad systems to say which was the worst but the one system that really made me do the latter was a Mark Levinson reference system driving B & W N805 speakers. I almost fell asleep.

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I'm not sure that Paul S will be happy for a 'slag off the competition thread'

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If you base it as an opinion, then it should be OK.

The worst system I have ever heard (IMHO)? Well there have been plenty of crap sounding systems, so the opinion will be based on price and sound.

So the costliest/crappest systems I've heard (ascending order):

3) AudioFreaks demos
2) Fully loaded Linn LP12/Linn AV preamp/6xAnti-Klimaxes/Ninkas (Bristol 2001)
1) CD12/Linn AV preamp/6xAnti-Klimaxes/Keltiks (Hammersmith 1999)

So I ask the question, why is Linn producing such (IMHO) washed-out sounding kit nowadays? Who's decision was it? What goes on to make it so bland?

Andrew

P.S. I also agree about the Mana room - probably was the room though. Kind of like listening down a large metal-pipe.

Andrew Randle
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Defining moments of sound for me have been:

The early stereo broadcasts, one channel was broadcast on Radio 3 (it might have been radio 3 in those days) and the other channel was broadcast on the BBC tv - there was a series of limited test transmissions on Saturday mornings in the mid 50s

The Paris studios in London in 1964 listening to the warm up music prior to a live broadcast involving an orchestra.

Demo of Spendor BC1s versus some Tannoy speakers in 1972 - I bought the Spendors.

The Kef demo at the hotel in Eastleigh in 1986 - I bought a couple of Kef r107s as a result of the demo.

It is now more difficult to get these defining experiences - fortunately my own system quite amazes me still.

Apologies for distorting the thread

Derek

On the other hand, the BEST system i've ever heard (IMHO) has to be the Path Premier domo at the Nova Hotel in 2000 with their Mark Levinson reference system front end, 436 mono blocks and Revel Salons. Toatlly convincing bass and definitely not boring.

Now if Naim could get their bass to sound as real as ML whist keeping the PRaT - well that would be moving experience (I'd probably have to sell the house to afford it)

Cheers

Don

You can tell that Krell are trying.

In other words, you can tell that Krell are trying to get *the most* neutral sound ever. The result they unwittingly get is an engineered sound. It is so obvious, it's funny.

Kind of like, "a little tweak with the bass here - a little tweak with the treble there. Oooh, this part of the sound sticks out so let's stomp on it." Kind of a squeeky clean sound for millionaires.

It is certainly an unusual way of listening to music, and am happy that this option is there for those who want it.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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Nice idea for a thread. It seems that "worst" must be defined by Sound (S) over Price (P) to clarify things. Thus an average sounding system at 100K can be worse than a bad sounding system at 50 dollars. So W = S/P is a good equation to start with. However we must also consider correction factors based on mood and environment or poor listening selection (over engineered remasterings for example), which can ofetn be the biggest determinant of sound. Thus these terms should be exponential. Thus we must consider C (crap recording), J (Jackass salesman), R (room accoustics), and B (Bliss factor. A high number if you are on peyote or have just fallen in love, and a negative number if you are hung over or recently jilted)

So, finally,

W = (S/P) exp[CJRB]

On this note, being in a pretty good mood and going to a pretentious audio store in Canada, to encounter a snobby and anti-naim salesman who turned my attentions to a Top of the line Mark Levinson/JM Lab Mezzo Utopia system with cables as thick as your forearm into which he inserted a slick and over engineered modern jazz recording in which the harmonics are more noticible than the principle notes or rhythm, would have to rank as the highest W factor I have ever encountered. BTW, I had just bought a remastered version of the 70s stones album Only Rock and Roll and I tried this out on the system and the results were abominable. The dynamics were compressed and the voices were thin and lifeless. What is really surprising about this low W factor is that I was in a great mood (high B) and the room accoustics were fine with no boomy bass. The salesman then said it was the fault of the system being so high end and the remastering being so great that it was revealing the deficiencies in the master tape! Strange, on my CDS2/52/250 ACT 2 system I only detect groove and vibe with no trace of compression or tombstone vocals and far more detail than the big W system. I guess my system just is not "resolving" enough.

The salesman went on to explain how the major shortcoming of modern audio is that the systems are so good and the remastering so perfect that all old recordings stink. I find the opposite. Most remastered 50s and 60s recordings are wonderful. Maybe its the electronics??? I guess my "hair shirt" (recent quote from UK audio mag on naim equipment) system isn't that bad after all.

dd

I wonder what that salesman would have given as the reason for all *new* recordings sounding like shite on his thick-cabled weenie rig?

Great post Dave,

dave

I'm not too sure. I kind of felt sorry for the guy, although it was hard since he seemed rather contemptuous of my naim system. I have, oddly enough, read similar views in various magazines about how audio is getting so advanced and recording technology is so fabulous that we can hear pin drops in the background detracting from the performance, making us wonder if high end audio is really worth it. The salesman seemed to be suggesting that you "have to take the good with the bad" when you upgrade. yet I am pleased to say that I have never heard any "bad" with a naim upgrade (although I once returned an XPS becuase it was producing more bass than my 102/supercap/180/Albions could handle) and am always amazed how it seems to bring the best out of all recordings, remastered or not.

Some remasterings are not to my taste, though, when compared to the original, but not because of excess detail revealing master tape flaws, more because the remastering lacks cohesion. The Van Morrison and the Cheiftan's one, for example, sounds cleaner and more "impressive" than the original that came out in the eighties, yet the latter is a bit more cohesive and expressive, although also seeming "smaller" at a given volume setting. I prefer the older one, and this may be why I own naim and Wilson Benesch and not some other brand that may have even greater detail and soundstaging (not that my system is wanting in this area, quite the contrary), but for some sad reason doesn't quite make "music".

Man, it's easter and I'm all alone. Gonna go home and fry something in fresh Rosemary to give the illusion that there's a big juicy roast in the oven.

dave

cheers

Nigel

That was one of the funniest postings I have read in some time. Speaking of jackass salesmen, I once asked a salesman what the difference was between a Wadia CD play and a BOW Technologies player. His response was: "about $5000.00" in a nasty little tone. Silly me, I thought maybe it was the sound quality? The fact is that most of these clowns have no idea what they are doing, and probably get most of their training from the pages of Stereophile. You can always tell a crappy shop when there are more than one pair of speakers in the demo room. That always makes my blood boil.

I have often suggested to my dealer the slogan: "The Last Honest Hi-Fi Dealer" Its true, they honestly care more about the quality of the demo than milking money from you. Hey wait a minute, I have spent a fortune with them!@#$&?

Chris Bell

The 72 didn't sound quite so revealing in the trebble as the old 32.5 - was this an upgrade mistake, it was certainly the worst system at that time for me

The Grace/Supex couldn't track the cannon shots on Telarc's 1812 like the rega/shure - was this an upgrade mistake, it was certainly the worst system at that time for me

The Arkiv had more bass and better control but the Troika had brought life and sparkle to the upper registers - was this an upgrade mistake, it was certainly the worst system at that time for me

The CDS1 was confused, sluggish, disturbing after the Karik/Numeric - was this an upgrade mistake, it was certainly the worst system at that time for me; but then after about 5 weeks it sprang to life and WOW

The Arkive was every bit as good as the Troika but the bass was even better still - ie different and it took time for the new gear to get run in and for me to realise how good it was

ditto the 72 and the Grace.

There are many factors, some we think we know, some we (and the designers) probably never will know. Seems to me like we need time, a good dealer and bit of luck.

happy listening

cheers

Don

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The reason "why" Manchester United won the championship is because they are by far the best side in England so if you support any other side you need to know that this is why your team did not win the league.

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Nothing to do with having the money to buy expensive players and coaches eh? Are any of them Mancunian?

BTW Paul, what was your opinion on the NBL room at the last Chester show?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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It smells lovely, doesn't it! I have a little one in a pot by the window that I clip sometimes for cooking. tasted great last night with onions, tomatoes, and dansak paste on pasta. Not quite an easter roast, but seeing edmonton score twice against dallas in the last minute made up for it, evin if they did lose in the end.

Chris,

Any association with person of similar name from Big Star (Alex Chilton etc)? Anyway, I know exactly what you mean. Some of these audio stores make you feel like you just aren't welcome. The same salesman I was roasting used to work in a record store and every time you bought an LP he'd look at it with contempt as though he was the universal judge of taste and then he'd look over at his sales colleague and grin as though to draw his attention to my unthinkably tasteless purchase. Where do these guys come from?

dave

If I could find the report I posted when I got home after the Worcester event, I would do so because as you say the room was less than optimal.

I did say nice things about the CDX/XPS combo but that was in the context of the very poor showing of the NBLs.

The fact remains, that system (or series of system upgrades) was the worst I have heard anywhere.

cheers

Nigel

In particular - the week I spent, after having upgraded from a 72/hi/180 to a 52/super/2x135.

To cut a long story short I never realised that my left hand speaker had been placed out of phase in my haste to get things swapped and up and running!

It took me a week to discover that the 180 runs + - , - + and the 135's run - + , - +.

That was one hell of a week - it really was!!

(For those of you out there who own a Base cabinet I'm sure you might sympathise with why I never found out sooner!)

P.

So upgrading a 180 -> 135 when using Naim 'speakers could mean a re-solder job on the cable.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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Apart from the laughter emanating from my other half 'ponst this discovery I found the anomaly relatively easy to remedy by simply switchin the pins around in the plug at the Credo end of things.

OK - I'll come clean and admit that I had also set up the workmate in the lounge (with gusto!!) and the soldering iron WAS all aglow ready to resolder the miscreant plug till I thought about it a bit.

Anyone else been there?

P.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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I've heard Wilson WATT/Puppies via Krell and ML. I'venever once been moved by the music. Strange how this forum reacts to Wilsons, compared to the hifi press.

Phil

Not when they get the product on long-term loan(years) , free , or accomodation pricing

regards,

dave

Ron The Mon

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because the damned car stereo had made me impotent!!

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Guess the kit you own nowadays has extremely beneficial effects

I'll remember that when I'll be 60 or so

Bernard

I'd pay someone not to have to listen to Bose speakers.

Phil