New HiFace Drivers

My guess would be to avoid the additional USB cable but I suspect it will be trial and error for the correct answer and it may vary by quality of the 2 cables. The Naim DAC when used with the DC1 really does seem to be good with SPdif issues so that's why I think this may be the better way to go. Any way you look at it, if you run a long USB, you'll have an extra connection.

I've heard of varying results of HiFace vs JET so I think you should also probably try for yourself. Ferenc kinda likes the HiFace and I spoke to a reviewer the other day that prefers his Konnekt 8/linear supply which uses the same topolgy as the Wise to his HiFace. I haven't heard the HiFace so don't have a personal opinion.

js - thanks.

Easy to test out - so I'll let you known what happens.

Best Wishes

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by js:


I've heard of varying results of HiFace vs JET so I think you should also probably try for yourself. Ferenc kinda likes the HiFace and I spoke to a reviewer the other day that prefers his Konnekt 8/linear supply which uses the same topolgy as the Wise to his HiFace. I haven't heard the HiFace so don't have a personal opinion.

HiFace + DC-1 BNC-BNC is very good. I like it definitely more than the Konnekt plus general purpose SPDIF cable. Konnekt + Hynes PSU is a different beast, but it is almost 10 times the price of the HiFace and roughly double the HiFace+DC-1 price plus you can experiment different power cables for the Hynes PSU, and it means again extra cost .

To be honest, I think it is very difficult to find something definitely better than the HiFace+DC-1 if you think of the nDAC.

ferenc,

I noticed a friend of yours with the Altman DAC had plugged the HiFace directly into the DAC with a connector - and used a USB cable to connect back to the computer.

Have you tried this?

Hi Paremus,

Do you mean connecting the DAC and HiFace together via a Male-Male RCA coupler rather than a cable?

Ie.
DAC SPDIF RCA -> RCA Coupler -> HiFace SPDIF RCA -> USB extension cable -> PC USB port
Rather than:
DAC SPDIF RCA -> Digital Coax cable -> HiFace SPDIF RCA -> PC USB port

I am expecting my HiFace to arrive any day now and will compare this approach with using a digital coax cable.

John

John,

Yes, just wondering. If you've a RCA->RCA coupler hanging around would be interested in your thoughts.

Which DAC do you use?

Cheers

Richard

If you want to use a coupler between the DAC and the HiFace, I think it is better to use a HiFace with BNC. a BNC-RCA or BNC-BNC male is more robust, at least as I feel. My friend is using this kind of connection, if you did not see the picture I attached earlier here:



I tried this too last week-end and I did not find any really significant difference this way using the nDAC with an ordinary USB cable against no USB cable but Naim DC-1 as a coax SPDIF cable, however in case of the nDAC it is a bit tricky to make the connection, not as straightforward as in case of the Altmann DAC. The difference was not too dramatic, to be honest.

ferenc

Thanks. That's the picture!

I'm using the relatively cheap Chord Codac at the moment - so perhaps the USB & RCA Coupler will be better & avoid some expenditure on a DC1.

Richard,

This is actually for my second system and so not Naim.
I will be using the Hiface with my iMac, a Musical Fideltiy V-DAC and an Icon Audio Stereo 20 valve amp.
I have a decent Atlas Compass cable to compare the coupler against.

John

quote:

Originally posted by paremus:
Those those of you using the M2Tech HiFace USB/SPIF converter.

Hi Richard,
why do you need to use a M2Tech HiFace?
is it better than directly connecting the Mac Mini to the DAC via an Optical cable (Toslink)?
thanks
JC

Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio has recommended at least 1.5m of SPDIF cable length for best results, stating that jitter can increase if the cable is too short.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

I wonder if it applies in this case. but the above Altmann/HiFace contraption is ingenious.

R-go,

As flagged by JS, the S/Pdif optical output from the Mac Mini has some jitter. Connecting the Mac Mini via optical to the DAC certainly works well - but a connection via the HiFace sounds substantially better!

Note that there are other alternatives to the HiFace; but not at the price.

JYOW - thanks. Interesting points made in the article. I do have an SWR meter - but hooking it into the sound system seems a bit excessive .

paremus
would you think the same if JS hadn't said that?

What percentage better is it? Can you quantify it? Could a regular joe off the street hear it?

It is as meaningful as standard vs hidef tv?

thx
-p

Patrick,

Regular Joe will hear the differences.
Percentage improvement???
Change from Toslink to HiFace - 40%
Change from Toslink to Firewire - 60%

Firewire being firewire cable to Weiss Dac2, DC1 coax out to Ndac, HiLine to pre-amp. I didn't have an INT202 Firewire to hand so used the Dac2 instead.

Keith

P

I make my own mind up.

I discovered the HiFace on another forum - and made my own conclusion w.r.t the quality of it v.s. Mac Mini optical. On this point - my findings agree with JS.

On other things - i.e. the quality of the DA10 you'll find that JS and myself completely disagree.

The rest of the question concerning percentages is frankly quite meaningless!

Thanks for the nod about the new HiFace drivers Richard.

I sold my CD3.5/HiCap recently and replaced with a MacBook Pro and naim DAC. I wanted to convince myself of the benefits (or otherwise) of the HiFace, so I started out with a Optichord optical cable and ran with that for the last week. It sounds great. No regrets about letting the CDP go.

Prompted by your post, I emailed Marco and got the latest driver and dug the HiFace out. It was actually version 1045106 (for Mac OS X 10.6) that Marco sent. I am very new to Mac, but the installation was easy, with everything up and running in a couple of minutes. I have a HiFace(BNC) with a DC-1(BNC-BNC) connection to the nDAC. I was happy with the optical connection, now I am really happy.

Of course I can only talk about my system, in my room, to my (and my wife’s) ears but the HiFace is streets ahead of the optical connection.

While using optical, I also played around with direct USB sticks into the nDAC. A direct USB stick was clearly much more detailed than optical from the MBP, however the USB sound seemed a tad ‘beige’ to both me and Mrs Gavin.

The HiFace from the MBP seems to give me all the detail of the direct USB and the kind of energy in the music that I like. I had trouble getting some USB sticks to work and posted on HiFi corner about it. I now have no plans to faff-around with USB sticks.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts at the moment, for what its worth.

Gavin.

Gavin

Thanks.

Is it amazing what a compute front end feeding a decent DAC can do! Also, the HiFace must be the best value for money audiophile product I've ever come across

Are you using iTunes? Have you tried Pure Music or Amarra Mini?

Think you'll like the results!

Cheers

Richard

Hi Richard,

I am ripping and playing back with iTunes. It seems great to me. I would have been happy with the same sound quality as my CD3.5/HC given the convenience of a computer front-end, so it is a big bonus to have upgraded the sound quality so much.

I am definitely interested to see what Amarra or Pure Music adds. I am doubtful that Amarra offers value for money but PM looks like a good bet. I get the feeling that there will be a number of products appearing on the market to appeal to the computer audiophile.

I thought about the HDX long and hard but I don't think it will do it for me. I like listening to music 'seriously' but also streaming the radio through the internet and I like the option of napster/spotify for a bit a fun with friends. Ultimately, if I change my mind I have got a MBP to use to replace my very old pc.

I am very interested to see how things pan out with computer front ends over the next few months/years.

Gavin

Hello gav111n,

In iTunes are you ripping in AIFF or ALAC ?

I'm interested in the various comments you have made as I am about to go down this route trying out my MBP with a soon to be received nDAC, and I am trying to decide the format to re-rip my CD's to.

I am told that WAV has the edge on sound quality over AIFF, however, I don't think it is possible to pick up either track names or album art via iTunes. Whilst I don't really have a problem typing track names in, albeit it will be rather laborious; I have not been able to drag album art off the internet into the WAV tracks in iTunes. Does anyone have a solution to this please ?

Dasher

you guys are all crazy.

Small changes in peripherals like drivers and USB cables should not make the same differences that DAC's and transports do.

It must be the case that the stock, internal soundcard with the mini toslink output on most Macs is either not bit perfect, or injects a shitload of noise and/or jitter.

The ONLY thing that changes my SQ to a noticeable degree is the DAC or source's output stages. And I suppose also the analog interconnect. (I did hear the affects of the Hiline)

- The 5i sounded incredible on my 102/180. The HDX even better. Both MAJOR improvements over my B-ford (my only source right now).

- My Berseford DAC at the end of the HDX ruined things a bit. It is interesting to hear an external DAC worsen the analog outputs of a source.

- No digital cable whether Toslink, Coax, USB, etc, regardless of price or contruction has EVER been audible. Although I do appreciate a nice braided cable so maybe they sound best.

- No soundcard, or USB converting option (ive tried many), provided one single SQ delta. Provided they are bit-perfect etc.

I can hear the affects of bad upsampling, compression (MP3s), if other differences above do exist, I simply contend that they are very subtle.

Why does everything have to be so exaggerated.

I wouldn't even say that the bare HDX was that much better than the 5i. It wasn't "miles ahead of", "kicked dirt in the face of", "showed the door to", "made it only suitable for background listening", or any other number of hifi cliches.

Yes, it was better all around. But the 5i is really, really good. Does that mean the HDX is really, really, really, really, really, really, good? If the HDX is only "really good", does that make the 5i now only "ok"?

USB is USB is USB. Come on people.

Dasher,

Rip to any lossless codec.

Make sure it is one that is used on the players and software you frequent.

You cant go wrong with WAV for compatibility across the boards. But you lack tagging support and is a pain with some media players. But everything will play it regardless.r

FLAC is most ubiquitous, but lacks support in Apple world.

AIFF works well if used mostly Mac world.

ALAC works well if used only Mac world.

THEY ALL SOUND IDENTICAL. UNLESS A PLAYER CANNOT CORRECTLY DECODE IT.

The latter typically means silence or errors/wont play.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

- No digital cable whether Toslink, Coax, USB, etc, regardless of price or contruction has EVER been audible. Although I do appreciate a nice braided cable so maybe they sound best.

Bold statement

Regarding USB cables. I am thinking loud.

Do not forget, usually you power the USB device from the computer using the 5V supply of it through the USB cable. This 5V is modulated with the noise of the computer supply, so the reason why USB cables can have different sound is related to use it as to feed the power to the device, probably similar how the mains cables can have an effect of the sound of your systems. So it is not only "bit is bit" related question.

I wonder if somebody would modify a HiFace to use it from an external battery than try different USB cables to the computer, would get the same difference using USB cables when it is used to carry the 5V supply?

Hi Dasher,

I really am no guru in this area, as this post will show! I am ripping in itunes to AIFF format because I think disk space is cheap and it seems to be the most appropriate for mac products. I converted some to WAV (with itunes) to play around with USB sticks. If I play the AIFF or WAV version from the MBP they are identical to my ears. I have deleted all of the WAV versions now. I have not used any other file formats and have no plans to.

I use itunes to rip because it’s easy. Everyone talks about XLD. I had a look at the website but I don’t really understand what the heck to do to ‘make it be on my computer’. I am also not sure that it is worth the effort.

I have been a loyal naim owner since the mid nineties but I found in later years that I listen to fewer CDs because I can’t be bothered fiddling through the CD racks, opening the little drawer, putting it on the tray, putting the puck on etc. When I heard that naim was bringing out a DAC I was very interested. I read many comments on this forum (and another US forum for ‘audiophiles’ using ‘computers’) before deciding to get rid of the CDP and get the MBP / nDAC. Thank you to all of those who took the time to post comments in the past. I thought I too would take the time to give my thoughts having made a big change to my system.

I don’t understand a lot of pcstockton’s comments. I think he is much cleverer than what I is. I have only used the HiFace with the latest driver, so can’t comment whether drivers make a difference. However I did read that some bright spark had spotted a slight error with the previous mac driver. It was producing some kind of digital artefact. It think Paremus referred to this as ‘zero point cut over problem’. This has apparently been solved with the latest driver. I say well done to the manufacturer of the HiFace for getting on this and sorting it out, but of course I have never used it with the problem in place.

In terms of my opinion between the HiFace and the optical cable: both are great but there is a REAL difference to me and Mrs Gavin, dunno why the difference, don’t really care, maybe I have a wasp stuck up my mini-jack hole. The optical cable is back in it’s box and I don’t plan to get it out unless the HiFace goes pop.

Gavin.

As explained by Gavin, the new HiTech driver successfully address two know bugs (clicking and a "one bit zero point crossover error"; both affected the bit stream from the HiFace. So I think the onus is on Patrick to explain why the new driver should sound identical to the previous version.

Ferenc - think your suggestion is quite reasonable. Cables, (whatever name we use to categorise their function) to varying degrees, are susceptible to environmental RF and noise on the power they carry.

The question being to what degree does this matter at each point in the chain - presumably more so as one gets closer to the analog domain; i.e. the DAC. Presumably little / no effect where a USB cable connects a disk to the computer.

I do believe, in the spirit of enlightened openminded investigation Patrick, on another thread, has offered to test out this conjecture with respect to external disks ;-)