Isobariks and stands

Syd

I have a full Naim system which fires up a pair of Briks.

I would strongly recommend that you treat yourself to a pair of Mana stands for the Briks because it genuinely does improve the sound.

The cost £475.00 new but if you are patient you can pick them up for half that second hand.

Regards

Mick

Are there any other options that work?
My stands are slightly updated from Syd's, but they could be improved.
Mana is SO expensive in the States and 'Brik stands are a special order. The nearest dealer is 6 hours away by car, and I'm not sure if they'd take them back if they didn't work for me...
Any ideas?
Thanks!
David

I'm not an expert on the history of Brik stands. I have the 'panelled' version, which is a simple framework with spikes top and bottom.

If your stands are rigid then I would suggest fitting upward facing spikes. If they are a bit flexible then maybe a visit to a metal worker for some welding?

Oher than that ensuring the drive unit bolts are at least tight (take care...) and vacuuming the tweeters, or considering replacement, would be sensible steps.

One problem I have is that the bottom spikes drill themselves into the rather flaky concrete of my floor. So I have to adjust spikes occasionally. I reckon this makes a significant difference, but I'm not going to prove it or explain it...

Paul

Hi Syd,
Just goes to show what different rooms do to the sound, what you are experiencing is the opposite of the speakers sound in my room ie. sound was bass light but very forward in the mid range.

Anyway... try large ball bearings sitting in hollows of the allen head screw area and coins onthe bottom of the speakers,i did this with a single one at the back(or front depending on how you use the stands)Using three points eliminates any rocking.

Regards David

David

I'll try and get some ball bearings and try this out but what's to prevent it rolling off the stands? Also I've got the stand with the open end to the wall. Is there a right way or a wrong way?

Paul

First thing I do with any speaker is ensure the drive units are nice and tight but I have'nt got the proper spanner( wrench for our American cousins) to fit the bolts on the woofer. Don't want to try an open ender as the head is very shallow and a slip could mean disaster.

Mick

Mana's out of the question at the moment due to financial constraints. Even second hand I could wait for months for a pair to appear. I really need something of a quick fix.

Overall the sound isn't bad on the right recordings but I know with a little tweak here or there that it could be better. Do you think that the positioning is at fault. They really heavy buggers and not something you can move about easily to find the sweet spot.

Thanks for replies so far.

Yours in Music

Syd

I tried the pennies and it didn't help things at all. My spikes into the wood work better in my situation, anyway.
Mark, I'd like to replace my ancient tweeters and I remember that you had done that with great success. My bl**dy e-mail is not receiving messages right now, so if you wouldn't mind posting the info here, that would be great. If not, I'll wait until my e-mail is working again.
I sure would like to try some Mana under my 'Briks, but it would be a huge headache just getting the stands here.
BTW, Mark, the 250 is working BEAUTIFULLY! It's not been off since I replaced my NACA4 with 5 several months back. My 'Briks have never been happier!
BTW, the 250 made a bigger difference than the NACA5, but I didn't try my old 110 or the LK2 (soon to go up on e-bay or Audiogon) with the NACA5.
David

Syd, I have Isobariks which had similar symptoms of excess bass and mid recess. I solved most these tendancies by using the pennies trick (are you sure this isn't working for you? - it was an enormous improvement for me) and bringing the Briks out from the back wall to about 13 inches.
I then saved up for some Mana stands which helped, but improved again by using Michell Aluminium 'Tenderfeet' between the nylon feet and the glass base of the Mana stand.
BTW Having replaced my tweeters, it doesn't really change the sound at all and a great hassle to boot, they seemed to held in by nails(!) on my old Briks.

Mark,

pennies are better than very bad spike holes, but they're still quite a poor solution.

This is what my spike holes looked like before I dealt with them.

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

This is what they looked like after I'd filled them with araldite. It was a LOT better than pennies.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

My spike holes don't look as bad as that, but I may try getting some of that magic stuff -- is it an epoxy or something like that? Never heard of it here in the States.
Thanks!
David

David
Yes Aradite is two pack epoxy. 2 types rapid and "normal/original" I find the rapid is softer when set. Not sure of brand names of equivalent product in America though.

Regards

Howard

my ol' brik stands had one pair (on the top) of adjustable spikes and one pair of solid (can shaped) spikes.

which ones are used in the front of the stand?

cheers,
jim

Hi again All

I think your getting lost here. My stands don't have any spikes on the top. Just 4 spikes on the bottom into the wooden floor, so at the moment the speakers are sitting on the bare metal of the stand. This means that they are easily moved with a surprisingly light touch. Would it be beneficial to run strips of bluetak or those sticky strips on the top edge of the stand. David has advised that he used ball bearings in the holes for the Cap screws. I'm really looking for a quickfix at the moment and will be looking at more permanent solutions at a future date.

As an aside, a friend lent me his PMS Isobariks with external crossover, and all welded stands with "panels" and upward spikes to use a few years ago with his Linn LK1/LK2(not sure if this is right but it's the first pre and power combo Linn made) and Linn/Ekos/Karma for a few months while he was looking for a new house. They sounded excellent in much the same position as I have mine now. Bass was tight and midrange very clear and the whole shooting match was very together and musical. I was wondering if my problems with the overblown bass could be exascerbated with the older style stands. They appear to be less rigid than the all welded stands ( the ones I own are bolted together) and are in a "U" shape with the open end towards the wall.

Hope this preamble is of help to you in getting a picture of what the problem is. Also today I played the system for 10 - 12 hours and it got better the more I played it. I'm not sure if this because I have'nt switched of the system for over 24 hours(I was experimenting with various cable configs and inputs on the 32.5) or if it is due to me subconciously picking CDs that I know are very clean recordings.

Hope you can help.

Yours in Music

Syd

Thanks for the info on the epoxy, I'll look for it or the equivilent.
My advice (for what it's worth) is to get yourself some spikes that are suitable and drill out your stands, mount the spikes and plonk the speakers on top of them (with some help so you don't hurt yourself!).
I had your type of stand and my local Linn dealer sold me the spikes (4 of them) about 1985 or 1986. They are threaded (metric, of course!) so I drilled and tapped the stands, installed the spikes, leveled the stands and leveled the speakers once mounted. I've done this in all the locations I've had them (at least 5 that I can think of!).
Others have reported that pennies on the spikes going into the speakers have helped, I found that the bass was markedly reduced and the overall presentation suffered. Easy enough to try but I'd go with the spikes first. As with all "tweaks" your mileage may vary.
Good Luck!
David

Syd,

Until you get some original DMS stands or machine your existing pair for spikes (as David suggested)...stop by your nearest Linn dealer (or fastener shop)and get 6 M5 nuts ("small" or "large" doesn't matter as long as all 6 are the same size--FWIW, they are the same nuts used inside an LP-12). Then stop by a hardware store and purchase 6 small brads (no longer than .75 inch).

Next, remove the 4 plastic feet from the bottom of both briks...it's much easier than it sounds. A pair of pliers or Vice-Grips works great here (the feet have a .75 inch nail molded in them and are easily removed by gripping and pulling a bit with the pliers).

Once the feet are off, place 3 of the M5 nuts in a triangulated pattern on the bottom of each speaker (two under the front and one in the rear is fine) making sure the pattern allows the nuts to rest squarely on the stands frame. Nail each M5 into place using the brads (the reason we purchased short brads is to prevent penetrating the cabinet's bottom panel and creating an air leak) and place the speaker on the stand. (Prior to returning the speaker to the stand--the stand should be firm on the floor-no rocking and situated so the back of the briks will be no more than 3 inches from [and parallel to] the wall).

The underside of the brad's head is not perfectly flat and does seem to allow slight movement (and rotation of the nut) with the brad/M5 assembly after attachment to the speaker but...no worries....the weight of a single brik is enough to flatten the brad head instantly when the speaker is positioned upright upon the stand allowing for a very rigid interface. The "hammering" side of the brad head is not perfectly flat either but that problem is also solved by the sheer weight of the speaker.

The ball bearing solution would work because the immense weight of the speakers allow the steel bearings to dimple the wood a bit--effectively "capturing" the speaker and preventing it (the speaker) from walking off the stand but it still allows for too much movement and hurts the sound compared to the M5/brad method. (I've used both of these techniques trying to create the best interface with custom brik stands before I finally sourced Linn DMS stands..the M5/brad solution worked better than any other temporary solution for me). The other problem when using the ball bearings is the four point mount....it's not going to be easy eliminating the rocking with this type of 4 point mount. A tie-down bar screwed-in to the bottom of the speaker would stop the rocking with a 4 bearing arrangement, but it seems to create some strange sounds as it couples the speaker/stand assembly together in unpredictable ways.

The brad heads should be "rough" enough to grip the stand frame (preventing "walking") without any prior "roughening up", however if you still feel uncomfortable about the "walking" issue simply roughen up the paint on the frame directly under each M5/brad with sandpaper.


hth,

dave

[This message was edited by dave simpson on SUNDAY 26 January 2003 at 05:05.]

I fixed size 6 3/4 inch chipboard cross-headed screws with araldite into the base of by Isobariks to locate the upward facing stand spikes. I have also tried cross headed screws into the (wooden) floor. This is more of a hassle though these do seem to help prevent"wobble" setting in. My experience of isobaricks is that the sound falls apart if even a spike lock nut is loose. They really need rigid support

Laurie S

quote:

---

Originally posted by jcc:
my ol' brik stands had one pair (on the top) of adjustable spikes and one pair of solid (can shaped) spikes.

which ones are used in the front of the stand?

---

Jim,

the wide ones go at the front.

With my speakers, the pathetic little dimples on top of the 'cans' had no effect at all - the speakers were resting on the flats of the cans instead of the spikes. This is why filling the holes made such a big difference, I'm sure.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Syd
Going back to your first post I assume from what you said you have them on the 11' wall. Probably much better if they were on the long wall. 14" is not really far enough from the side walls either.

regards
Steve

Hi All

Today I lifted the Isobariks off their stands and checked that the allan bolts were tight on the stands. I then noticed that the spikes were not very extended and realised from the marks on the carpets that the stands were resting on the nuts. I fixed this and put the speakers back and got a big improvement. Not perfect yet but I'll wait until I've got all the connections to the amp optimised and the Linn up and running before trying again.

Hi kan man

I've tried this position before with 3 different speakers, MA352s, Saras and Kef Cresta 2 and didn't like it at all. I felt I was sitting too close and there was no air behind me. As I said previously I've had a pair of Briks before and had no problems. But I might try again but it would mean moving the furniture about and the system.

Anybody help me with the other query I had? I've ordered acoustic foam from wilmslow audio to make new front grills and was wondering what was the best way to cut it to size. Any body done this before?

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

Yours in Music

Syd

"I've ordered acoustic foam ... and was wondering what was the best way to cut it to size"


Place on a flat surface.

Put a rule/ruler on top of the foam, and crush it down until very thin. Cut along the rule/ruler with a craft knife or similar. It will spring back as soon as you release the rule/ruler.

cheers, Martin

Hi All again

Last night I trawled through the Forum and the net to find everything I could about the Briks and everything stated that for the best performance they need to be as close to rear wall as possible. Nothing ventured nothing gained I moved them to about 2" from the rear wall( just enough room to get my hand in to connect the XLR plug). This meant that the speakers were further apart but about 10" from the side walls due to a radiator in the way. Amazingly enough the improvement this brought was (to my ears) quite staggering. Suddenly they don't seem so boomy and the mid has come back. The speakers just seem to be happier. I'm wondering if this is because the rear spikes now sit over the rearmost joist and possibly the front one's too. At other positions I'm wondering if the air in the gap between the joists was been driven exascerbating the boom. Any which way the system is just so much more relaxing to listen to. I'll be experimenting now with spike subsitutes for the top of the stands.

Hi David Patterson
I tried the stand sitting with open U facing front and the sound was more as you were getting too lean but still boomy with whatever Bass was present. I'll try and get some ball bearings today and see what happens.

Thanks to all again.

Yours in Music

Syd

Quick Update

Got BNCs fitted to the Linn and a new Ortofon MC15II cartridge which I've been running in all day. I was surprised at the difference there is now between Vinyl and CD. LP is just so much better, more dynamic, much better PRaT and space around instruments and less boomy and that's before the cartridge is run in! The Briks seem to be a much better match to Vinyl replay than CD. At the moment I'm using fairly cheap cables and a BNC adapter from the CD to the Phono 2 connection on the 32.5 into the 328 adjustable boards with the pots adjusted to give a similar level on Vinyl/CD replay. Usually running at 11 o'clock. I tried CD into tuner and loud was below 9 o'clock and too insensitive and it sounded dead into the tape sockets as well as too loud. Using the RA attenuated PBJ cables with the tuner.

I was wondering if you could suggest a cable from the Chord range fitted with BNC plugs that would help out here?

Or do you think it's just showing up inadequacies in the CD player. Micromega stage 5

Thanking you all in advance.

Yours in Music

Syd

Further Update

This evening I moved my TV, big 32" wide screen Sony which sits between the Briks, back about 6" which made quite a difference to the overall sound, the boom reducing quite a bit. I've read in other threads that you shouldn't have anything between the speakers and this certainly seems to be the case. It's just unfortunate that I don't have the room to clear the telly away all together.

Yours in Music

Syd

"a BNC adapter from the CD to the Phono 2 connection on the 32.5 into the 328 adjustable boards with the pots adjusted to give a similar level on Vinyl/CD replay"


Yuk!!

Those boards have a terrible reputation. They were designed to filter out the nastiness from early 80's CD players - they don't have any sort of place with a modern CD player.

Yes, CD is louder, but the tuner socket (or even straight-through boards on socket 2) should sound a lot better.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Hi Martin

The tuner socket or straight through boards do sound better but the difference between too loud and too soft is too small a step on the volume. I like to get it right for the mood I'm in, late night listening so as to not annoy the neighbours etc. When I had it into the tuner socket before, I found it a bloody nuisance. I felt I was never getting the right volume. The compromise I've taken with the adjustable boards is one I'm prepared to take for convenience sake. It would be nice to have various optimised boards with fixed gains say of 100mv, 150mv 200mv, 250mv etc. so we could match it to our CDPs and our system. Perhaps Naim could come up with one that could be set by a dealer mod and changed as our systems changed.

But what I really would like is advice as to a cable with RCAs to BNCs so I can ditch the adapters. I've used Chord cables before and found them good value and know they are a sonic match to Naim equipment.

Yours in Music

Syd