DBL/6x135/52.... where to upgrade?

Posted by: Ron Toolsie on 22 July 2003

This may be of some interest to a limited selection of people out there (attention Jun Keller).

As some of you already know I started off on the active route circa 1996 with the then top of the line CDS1/52/Snaxo/SC/6x135/DBL setup.Great power, insight and lots of fun to listen to. Not really the last word in absolute finesse and delicacy though. Indeed I found that my previous speakers (the wonderous Sonus Faber Extremas)had a certain gestalt and beauty in them that was not to be found in the active DBLs. And for a while the view was nice, being able to survey the surroundings from the kingdoms highest peak. Of course it doesnt take much to have the highest elevation in the Flat Earth World. This state of overconfidence did not last long as the CDS1 became the S2, the NAP500 was introduced, the 52 became bettered by not only the 552 but the 252, the NAP300 positioned itself between the 135 and the 500, the CDS3 took over the baton from the CDS2 etc etc. A couple of years ago I decided to have my CDS1 transmuted to the CDS2.

CDS1 to CDS2 In my opinion an upgrade that has no significant downsides. Everything the CDS1 did very well the CDS2 did even better, while most of the failings of the CDS1 (inablity to musically track complex recordings, subjectively peaky vocals, threadbare texture of bass notes and what can only be kindly referred to as quirkyness of track acess) seemed vastly better. It is true that the sum of the parts made the CDS2 seem very slightly 'dark' or rather less spotlit than the CDS1- a trait that some of the true believers decried was loss of pace. Not so I. For the very attractive CDS1-CDS2 innard upgrade that Naim offered, I was very pleased with the overall results, and never wished I had the CDS1 signature back.

Current conventional wisdom suggests that the next 'upgrade' would be to replace the 6x135/active with a single NAP500/passive x/o, but for people such as myself and Jun, we have so much vested in the extra black boxes we look for alternative pathways. And as I have already opined, the price of a single NAP500 is not really that much less than 3xNAP300, while the latter would still allow me to receive all of the benefits of an active crossover.

Now on to the next upgrades (in chronological order in which I auditioned them).

552/6x135 vs 52/6x135 I had the 552 in my system for only one long afteroon. If you recall my original post I declined the dealers offer to leave it there all weekend for fear that I would end up e-baying one of my kidneys. The 552s greatest strength over the 52 was what it did NOT do.... it lacked the now obvious colorations that the 52 imparts, sounding entirely seamless with more than a hint of round-earth qualities interdigitating with its wonderful flat earth ones. In a nutshell, it offered a very seductive sound, and one that seemed very tonally, rhythmically and spatially accurate. Eventually when the 52 had to be re-inserted I intellectually missed what the 552 was doing in the context of the 6x135/DBLs pairing, but I did not feel that the 52 was by anymeans unlistenable.

52/6x135 vs 52/1x300/4x135
Yes, I bought a NAP300 sight unseen, because I just knew that the venerable 135s had to be a bottleneck, or at least one of them. With the configuration of the Snaxo 3-6 (but not the current Snaxo 362) the amps for the LF and MF had to be identical and the NAP300 could only be inserted driving the tweeters- which was the recommended configuration anyway. The details of this upgrade can be found in a more expansive form in one of my earlier postings, but I have to say this was a very significant upgrade. It still almost astonishes me that having a better tweeter amp can subjectively improve the entirespectrum. There is no doubt that even the low bass notes became tighter, more rhythmic and with less overhang. Voices, brass instruments and percussion were just so much more credible. Yes folks, the NAP135s were a great amplifier in its day, but by current standards seem to turn the leading edge into a bleeding edge. And the irony is that fully 67% of the NAP135s were still resident in the active system- their most pervasive colorations seemed to be smitten by simply replacing a single pair of them at the most critical site- the tweeters.

So now my 'reference' system is the CDS2/XPS1/52/1x300/4x135 with the Snaxo/SC and DBLs being for now a non-variable. Into this system I did the next change.

XPS1 vs XPS2
Like the 552 did over the 52 (but to nowhere as large a degree) the XPS2 showed the XPS1 to be colored, somewhat pedestrian at the bottom end and to lack some space around (and within) notes. In addition it allowed slight variations in the envelope of the notes to become much more apparent-a facet that is not immediately obvious on a quick a/b comparison, but becomes very important with time.

So now, I'm up to the level of the CDS2/XPS2/52/1x300/4x135. I felt that the next thing to be replaced would be one more pair of the NAP135s. While I was toying with the idea of adding on another NAP300, I got the opportunity to snap up a slightly used NAP500. While this was on its way to me, I ordered one of the new generation Snaxo 362, as this will allow me to horizontally activate the DBLs with three different model number amplifiers (the 135s, the 300 and the 500), something that cannot be done with the older Snaxo3-6.

Anyway, yesterday the NAP500 shows up...but the Snaxo 362 is still intransit from NANA. So last night I could only try the NAP 500 on the tweeters, although my initial plans were to use the 500 on the bass units- my long term goal was to have 1x500 (bass units) and 2x300 (mids and tweets. And here we go..........

1x300/4x135 vs 1x500/4x135.
Read above and see all of the changes I have made. Take their magnitudes and then add them up. What you then have maybe roughly approximates the literally astonishing (aka jaw-dropping) experience that the 500 effects.

Dare I say this is a far, far larger improvement than the 552/6x135s were. In the same ways the 1x300 thrashed the 135s driving only the tweeters, the 500 triumphed over the 300, but to a way greater level. What I heard last night was a complete revelation. The entire frequency spectrum has again been rectified to one that is much lower in colorations. The top and middle spectra have a completely unforced and very life-like texture. A great wealth of detail is just basking the room...tiny little echoes, spurious noises in the background and waves and waves of glorious sound that just has me transfixed in sheer admiration. How many times have I made an upgrade so large, I just wanted to call up everybody I knew and tell them...'you just gotta come over NOW and hear this!'. Maybe two or three times, and folks- this is one of them. The DBLs low end has also taken on an unprecedented degree of tune- something I would have thought would have been the case had I used the 500 to drive the LF units. I can only shake my head in disbelief.

I have to seriously re-evaluated my initial plans. Based on the overwhelming superiority of the 500 over the 300 when driving only the tweeters it makes me wonder if a speaker passively driven with a 500 is better than the same speaker actively driven with any other amplifiers (maybe even including 3x300). Based on the initial results, I will almost not certainly remove the 500 from its tweeter duties. However tonight I will try out (with the Snaxo 362) the 500(bass) 135(mids) 300 (tweeters) against what I think will be the preferred pairings of 500 (tweets) 300 (mids) and 135 (bass).

My jaw has dropped.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
Posted on: 23 July 2003 by Philip Pang
Ron, thank you very much for your post. You must be having some fun too! Cool I am envious.

Quite shocking to read that a 500 on an active DBL tweeter could make such a difference... I would have thought overkill and that the tweeters would have singed under such unadulterated power...

Do post on your inpressions of a passive DBL/500. I wish you more fun, and eventual audio bliss in nirvana land. Like you said, it will be either passive 500 or active 500... the rest are in betweens... Incidentally, couldn't Chris Koster offer to loan you DBL PXOs?

Hi Roland, buzz me for a chat when able. Lost my mobile and together with it your number as well...

Hockman, greetings. Still hiding the 500 somewhere, in the shadows ay? It should have grown on you by now. Wink By the way, you need a 552. Big Grin Shrug off "reluctant" from "capitalist", and who knows?

Good listening all, the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Regards

Philip

naimniac for life
Posted on: 23 July 2003 by Bob Edwards
Hock--

Rockville as a state of mind?

As in: "Don't go back to....?"

Bob
Posted on: 24 July 2003 by ken c
i add my vote to ron's great posts. my system sounds very good right now, but that has never stopped me from contemplating upgrades -- and right now, even for someone with a humbler system like mine, the options are many and its good to read ron's findings.

keep them coming ron...

and enjoy!!!

ken
Posted on: 24 July 2003 by Onthlam
A PROCLAMATION!!



Be it known on this day,the 24th of July,in the year of our lord,Two Thousand And Three.

Dr. Ron Toolsie shall be known and addressed as
Dr. Ron Toolsie,Post Master General....

Let it be said.Let it be written.Let it be done.


As witnessed by:
Smile Frown Big Grin Wink Red Face Red Face Razz Cool Roll Eyes Mad Eek Confused
Posted on: 24 July 2003 by David Antonelli
Mekon,

Thanks for your somewhat hostile comments. All I can say is that when I posted my last post it was "the time of the giant moths in the neighborhood of infinity", so anything said has to be tempered by this simple but profound fact. If you don't know what i am talking about, I think it is time to go to "the steak place" and "buy a hotel".

As for your comments about ethnicity and hip hop, I will not even respond as I feel I am being provoked into a tasteless discussion that took my original comments grosly out of context. But in retrospect I can see how someone looking for a fight may have been triggered by what I had said, as I could have been more clear. You should listen to the Dead Kennedies "Holiday in Cambodia" and see yourself aptly portrayed therein.

dave
Posted on: 24 July 2003 by Arun Mehan
Marc,

I have to second that emotion!
Posted on: 24 July 2003 by Roland Huu
bdnyc

spot on the need for passive xover improvement. What timing, Naim is going away for holiday. Hope they read this thread and if they have plans, they could share, if not why not look into this when almost every single electronic naim product has experienced change recently.

I'm sure every naim speaker owner on passive setup will upgrade their p-xover if there was a new one for their speakers that would take the passive setup another step forward. Probably sell better than the electronics.. then again would Naim want to do that?? Wink

Hey, no one can loan Ron a pair DBL xover??? we want him to complete his journey and help some of us along the way.
Posted on: 24 July 2003 by Philip Pang
The Last Straw

Hockman, I was just being the devil's advocate on the 552. Big Grin There may be other pursuits in life, yes, undoubtedly. But at the elevated level of a 500/DBLs, the reality of the 552 will eventually sink in, like the euphoria from a slow acting but potent audio drug...I daresay the 552 will find its place into your system, eventually, but probably at a higher outlay by that time of course... Wink

You're right about the 500 looking like industrial installation art...Big Grin

Enjoy the music (and the travel, after the 552 purchase).

Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life
Posted on: 25 July 2003 by Roland Huu
Big Grin Big Grin Philip come one, are you getting kick back for pushing 552 to hockman and myself? secret naim agent?

we'll have to tax you one of these days when you come over to KL for listening session and catch up on rubbish!!
Posted on: 25 July 2003 by Ron Toolsie
Follow-up:

I will be borrowing a pair of the passive DBL crossovers in the very near future from a fellow forum member. If it turns out that this is the preferred way I have resigned myself to flogging of the 4x135, 1x300, Snaxo, Supercap and putting the funds towards the 552. Even though it is somewhat unsightly, I will keep the extra speaker wires efferent from the room to the DBLs with the hopes of eventually going active again- but with 3x500.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo


Posted on: 25 July 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Toolsie:
I wonder what the DBLs would sound like with a pair of 500s used in the pseudo-monoblock 'NAP-250' configuration with only a single channel of each powering one of the DBLs. Anybody ever tried that? I will not rest until every permutation has been exhausted,digested and posted right here.



Ron,

remember that the NAP500 is two physically separated halves (I believe that there are no electronics, or wired connections, across the central heatsink).

Would there be much difference between two full NAP500s, and one NAP500 with two power supplies? This gets most interesting if rumours are true that the PS is only about 20% of the cost of a 500/PS combo.

Early reports were that this was no better than a single PS (using 52/CDS1/XPS1). Maybe the new stuff would change all that?

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
Posted on: 25 July 2003 by Martin Payne
Oh dear, I think I should have read to the end of the thread before butting in.

Still, I think Richard should confirm that Naim have tried NAP500+2xPS with a CDS3/XPS2/552 front end.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Philip Pang
>> If it turns out that this is the preferred way I have resigned myself to flogging of the 4x135, 1x300, Snaxo, Supercap and putting the funds towards the 552.

Ron, my experience with active drive is limited, save for some thoroughly enjoyable auditions that I had with 6x135/DBLs, so forgive me if the points I am about to raise don't quite add up; they're just for discussion and thought.

I have a nagging but unfounded suspicion that as you continue to experiment with one or two more other configurations for your DBLs, at this elevated level of performance the "simplicity" of a passively driven 500/DBL might perhaps "negate" the added complexity of the 2x135, 1x300, 1x500 active configuration. I have long believed in less is more, that generally the cleaner, the shorter, the more direct and quicker the signal relay, the better the sound. They may belong to the Naim family of amplifiers, but the 135s, 300 and 500 do present different performance envelopes/sonic signatures, and in conjuction with one another in active drive might not necessarily deliver the goods when compared to the much simpler passive 500/DBL configuration. It's a very big "might", but worth deliberating over, nonetheless.

If I wanted to drive the DBLs, it would be either passive 500 or the whole active 500 hog, no less, for the fact that I have reached the epitomy of sound reproduction for a Naim system, and would not "entertain any in-betweens". I know this sounds elitist, even haughtish, but the DBLs being Naim's reference loudspeaker, were never designed to be driven with less than optimal amp configurations, if they were to be every bit enjoyed the way they were designed to perform.

The "in-between" configurations are workable, as you have so kindly reported from your experiments in this thread, but the question is whether this is really optimal, and I have my doubts (of course the aesthetics do play a small but less significant part-it's quite a "component jungle" with 135s, a 300 and a 500)!

Then we have a 552 in the considerations, as you happily are, and I would be sticking my neck out here in saying the various power amps/active drive configuration should take a back seat for the passively driven 500/DBL, because we all know this pre-amp in particular takes the performance envelope of the 500 to another plane over everything else, and I daresay, in this instance, over active drive as well.

Enjoy the music and good listening, it's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Philip Pang
quote:
Philip come one, are you getting kick back for pushing 552 to hockman and myself? secret naim agent?


I wish! Big Grin

quote:
we'll have to tax you one of these days when you come over to KL for listening session and catch up on rubbish!!


I'll gladly pay the tax. Just make sure it's a 552...! Wink

How are you doing? Buzz me and we'll chat. Lost my mobile and your number.


Good listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more. Cool

Warm regards

Philip

naimniac for life
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Richard Dane
quote:
Originally posted by Martin Payne:
Oh dear, I think I should have read to the end of the thread before butting in.

Still, I think Richard should confirm that Naim have tried NAP500+2xPS with a CDS3/XPS2/552 front end.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com


Martin,

I wasn't present myself (before my time at Naim) but many others were. I believe the system was CDS2/552/500. With 2x500PS on one '500 the unanimous verdict was that while there was perhaps a slight increase in airiness in the highs, the trade-off was a poorer sense of rhythm and timing.

Richard
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin Payne:
Oh dear, I think I should have read to the end of the thread before butting in.

Still, I think Richard should confirm that Naim have tried NAP500+2xPS with a CDS3/XPS2/552 front end.

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com


Martin,

I wasn't present myself (before my time at Naim) but many others were. I believe the system was CDS2/552/500. With 2x500PS on one '500 the unanimous verdict was that while there was perhaps a slight increase in airiness in the highs, the trade-off was a poorer sense of rhythm and timing.

Richard


How about the NAP300? It seems to me that the 300 is dual mono design as well. Can we use 2 power supplies? and what is the improvement compared to one power supply?
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Richard Dane
Hi Tuan,

I had a suspicion you might ask just such a thing Wink. Yes, as far as I'm aware you can use 2x300PS on a single NAP300. Due to the many similarities shared between the 300 & 500 I would suspect the outcome would also be similar to what I've already described above. I haven't tried it myself so I'll keep an open mind until I get a chance to do so...

Richard
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
Hi Tuan,

I had a suspicion you might ask just such a thing Wink. Yes, as far as I'm aware you can use 2x300PS on a single NAP300. Due to the many similarities shared between the 300 & 500 I would suspect the outcome would also be similar to what I've already described above. I haven't tried it myself so I'll keep an open mind until I get a chance to do so...

Richard


Thank you Richard.

Please do the test and let me know the result. This way the NAP300 will have more transient power. I am seriously thinking of buying it and the next pair of speakers will be a "really kick-ass" model. I will call you a week from now and ask for the result. Tuan.
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by garyi
Wow, I smell a 'double glassing' scam coming on here Wink
Posted on: 26 July 2003 by Richard Dane
Tuan,

you'd better make it a couple of weeks at least as we're currently on Summer Break...

Richard
Posted on: 04 August 2003 by Ron Toolsie
Ok.... here is the follow up as promised.
As noted somewhere above I managed to borrow a pair of the DBL passive x/overs from a fellow forum member (thanks Arthur). Although I have had these at home for almost a week I was unable to install them myself due to the sheer physical size of the DBLs and the fact that they had to be gently lifted off (and then back on) the Mana soundbases.

Yesterday a friend came over to listen to the CDS3 (which really belongs to a separate thread) and helped me with the grunt work of converting them-for the first time ever- to a passive configuration. The first thing that struck me was how LARGE these crossovers are (they are shipped in individual Fraim boxes for those who have not seen them). But the installation was far easier and more intuitive than a Snaxo....four screws with rubber grommets into pre-drilled starter holes in the back, and three efferent cables that are of uneven lengths pretty much guaranteeing the tweeters are never inadvertantly mis-connected to the lethal LF frequencies. The DBLs were then replaced on their soundbases without impaling any feet- always a risk in such procedures. And finally the NACA5 was inserted into a lone NAP500. The first CD was cued up and played.

As seems to be the case chez moi, there is always some sort of initial set-up anomaly; something that is far easier with the complexity of 6-channels of amplification rather than two. The sound was pulled over to the right channel, while the left channel seemed to be making crackling sounds. Not good! A quick exploration showed the cable from the PXO to the LF driver on that side to be only partially inserted into the back panel and making intermittent contact. The Gods were smiling....no blown amplifiers or drive units here. In one minute the situation was corrected and listening commenced.

The first thing I noted with the Single 500/Passive DBL was a very significant gain in LF extension, drive and pure funky tunefullness as compared to active mit-der-135 powering the LF units. Tonally the sound was more seamless and to our ears more in-tune. The PXO seem suprisingly efficient too as the volume knob really needed no extra gain as compared to the Snaxo. I can honestly say that we both preferred the passive 500 to the active 500/300/135 combo. Were their any sacrifices by going passive? Sure there were. As compared to the active configuration (with Snaxo362/Supercap) there was a degree of compression of the previously unfettered dynamics and a reduced subjective degree of L/R seperation and some mild loss of inner detail at the top end. But the truth was greater than the sum of its parts and ultimately the single 500/passive won the day.

The lesson is not particularly obvious, although has been often stated and restated. Active is the icing on the cherry and should not be attempted until the passive configuration is pretty maxxed out. I would suggest that the MINIMUM configuration for active DBLs would be 1x500,2x300. Anything less would probably be trounced by a single passive 500 at less cost (after factoring in the Snaxo/Supercap/Burndy, extra shelving, extra NACA).

There is no doubt that attempting to use the 135s with any of the new-series power amps in an active system will only result in a fundamental imbalance that may or may not be intolerable. The one qualifying statement I should make is that my 135s are 1984 vintage and were recapped about 6 years ago, and probably are not truely representative of the final iteration.

So I am at a cross-road. I can either elect to stay passive (and buy my OWN PXO), sell off the 300/135/Snaxo/Supercap and put the funds towards the 552 OR I could replace the sadly outclassed 135s with another 3/500 and rejoin the active world.

Suggestions?

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo


Posted on: 04 August 2003 by Derek Wright
Ron

You now need to put the 552 back into the single 500 mix - it may well bring back what you think that are missing from the passive sound.

I have had a 552 on dem for week and agree with your comments except that more detail and enjoyment comes as the days pass by. So sell the surplus kit, keep the kidneys and get the 552.

Good luck

Derek

<<Have you checked your PTs today>>
Posted on: 04 August 2003 by Emil F
Active is the icing on the cherry and should not be attempted until the passive configuration is pretty maxxed out.

Ron

You have the answer. I vote for 552. Can you take it once again from the dealer?

Emil
Posted on: 04 August 2003 by Chris Bell
Ron,

I have had my 552 now for a week driving passive DBLs w/ a single 500. Needless to say, the upgrade was bigger than I expected. I say bigger, because my DBLs sound huge now. Notes are larger, with more impact and speed. There is the sense of unlimited power without a hint of edge or glare. Instruments are wonderfully seperate..you can follow a bass line easily now. Oh, and speaking of bass, the preamp has a warm, almost tubie sound with more bass than I ever got from my 252.

I think passive takes on a whole new meaning with the 500...even I had a hard time believing passive could be better than 135x6. Yes the 500 is that good, but you're only hearing 50% of its capacity without a 552. (lame to think a $20k amp is no good w/o a $22k preamp)

I think the choice is obvious: 552.


Chris Bell
Posted on: 04 August 2003 by Arthur Bye
Ron:

While the 552 sounds like it might be the next logical upgrade it comes only at great cost.

Perhaps you might try to get a 2nd NAP300 on loan to try going back to active and see how that sounds. I know that Nana has been promoting this as the most cost effective solution (1 X Nap500 and 2 X Nap300) to going active with the new series kit.

If that works then you can sell off your 135's and go for a new Nap300. From your reporting so far, I'm not completely sure that this may be an upgrade though.

Hmm.. on the other hand if you sold off your Nap300, Nap135's, Snaxo, Supercap, and extra cables maybe a 552 wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

Arthur Bye