Tchaikowsky Pathetique Symphony.

Your thread was a perfect excuse to replay this


which has been recommended by a number of folk on here.

The adjective which comes to mind in this performance is "Russian". It is loud & unself-consciously emotional, perhaps indeed a shade hysterical in some places. I know (and like) some Russian folk who are just like this after a few drinks.

Poor P.I.T. was a troubled soul towards the end of his life and I think these performances give a sense of the torment he was feeling.

Ian

I think this has to be my favourite, although I also like:-



Both versions handle the darkening decent into bleak despair very powerfully, without straying into over-sentimentality.

I have a couple of recordings by Cantelli, the second is a superb Brahms 3. I gather he was a protege of Toscanini and died tragically young. It makes me wonder what he would have produced had he lived.

The Jansons recording is one of a whole set including the Manfred. I think they set a high standard.

Steve

Dear Steve,

Is the bottom one the Oslo Philharmonic led by Mariss Jansons?

If so I heard it broadcast years ago. I have never heard the Cantelli set. I have Cantelli's Philharmonia recording of the Italian Symphony of Mendelsohnn. Cantelli's early death really deprived the musical world a huge talent!

Dear Ian,

I never have encountered these! Mravinsky was someone who would push his orchestra into extremes, and I have heard some of his live recordings, on Radio Three years ago, including the most amazingly fast, but still poised, performance of Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla Overture. It is strange that I have never seen these famous DG recordings in a record shop. Perhaps they are too exotic for the slow-life people in the rural Western and Border Counties!

Thanks from George

Hi George,

Yes the Mariss Jansons is the Oslo set.

Steve

Dear Steve,

You may know that while Jansons was chief conductor in Oslo, he was also first guest conductor of the BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra, and I had a friend who played in that band. They adored Jansons, because he was both funny and terribly serious about the music, but managed always a light touch in getting what he wanted. The orchestra like very much what he wanted, and he felt able to bring immense effort to bear on honing the band, who were not much used to the Slavick view-point!

He recorded the whole six symopohonies for BBC Welsh Television during this time before the Chandos recordings. Apparently Jansons very much enjoyed his time with the BBC WSO!

I saw the broadcasts at the time [mid-eighties], and they were great! Maybe they will find their way to video DVD release one day?

ATB from George

Janssons is marvellous in all the symphonies. I have the Mravinsky set mentioned above but seldom play it as the hysteria is for me, over the top. But for an emotion-filled and very "Russian" version of the "Pathetique" it would be hard to imagine a better one than Pletnev with the Russian National Orchestra on Virgin.
Having said that, I must admit to being sorely tempted today by a recent release of the "Pathetique" by Christophe Eschenbach with the Philadelphia Orchestra on Ondine.
There are plenty of excellent versions out there and you can choose where the balance between excitement and hysteria is at its best. For me, it lies between Janssons and Pletnev.
Ken

I'm not big on Tchaikovsky, but I do enjoy this work. While I still haven't got around to buying the Mravinsky set, I have some favorites. The Celibidache reading is perhaps a bit ham-fisted, but he delivers a reading with stupendous cumulative power. No hysteria here. I suppose Yuri Temirkanov can also be considered a bit heavy handed, but again his take displays great power married to a more appropriate emotional world. Antal Dorati is both controlled and fierce, and the venerable Vaclav Talich delivers a nicely emotional but never hysterical take, with his Czech band adding its distinctive sound. Daniel Barenboim probably takes the most standard “romantic” approach, but combine the SOTA sound and superb control, and I must say that I can’t resist. Recently I picked up the last three symphonies conducted by Danielle Gatti, and here is a half-cycle to cherish. The playing is as precise as I’ve heard for any work, and Gatti freely but expertly plays with the tempi to emphasize certain effects. There’s an intensity and drive that lack in most other recordings. Throw in SOTA sound here, too, and it shows that modern conductors can deliver on this work.



--

I have three recordings from Bernstein (the first of which comes with a rather interesting illustrated talk on the work). To my mind the finest performance is his final New York one on DG (available in a set of his late recordings - see here). Wonderfully rich sound, and particularly beautiful in the slower moments. The tempi are a bit extreme and the slowness at some points will put some people off. I think they're rather special.

I have the Mravinsky as well. These are very fine performances and I can see why they are so well regarded. However, in some respects I find them a little too hi octane and while this is sometimes very good (e.g. in the 4th), I think it isn't as successful in the sixth. I'm glad to have them, and I can see why they are the favourite of some, though not me.

I have the Jansons box, and while I greatly admire him - I've seen him live 3 times now wit his Bavarian orchestra and each of them has been an incredible experience. He has an excellent relationship with the Olso orchestra - as evidenced by a superb Mahler first symphony. However, for some reason this set has never quite grabbed me.

However, my favourite Pathetique is probably a 1951 Furtwangler reading, live from Cairo. There is something special to this from the quite opening to the thrilling way the allegro breaks in.


Like Ian, this thread prompted me to reach onto my shelves to listen to some Tchaikovsky - unfortunately I've been busy running errands all day, and now it's Mackerras and Figaro on Opera on 3 (which I'll be attending next week).


regards, Tam

I've just played the Cantelli for the first time in years. What nimble articulation in the third movement - quite a contrast to Klemperer, who I find magnificent for the weight and magnetism, the inexorably sprung rhythms carrying all before them.
Then, Mravinsky's 1956 mono recording. The sound is thinner, but the energy is more heartfelt, less contrived than Cantelli.
Klemperer's performance is magical, magisterial, almost (but never actually) plodding - totally contrasted with Mravinsky's fleetness.
Both are great performances, and Cantelli's not half bad, because they make me listen afresh to music I had thought I knew and could dismiss as "almost" great.
But for one choice, it has to the Klemperer that mesmerised me thirty years ago on the car radio in Australia.
Now Tchaikovsky 5 - there is both the contemporaneous Klemperer, and Mravinsky's 1978 Vienna recording. That's a lot closer.

A friend saw this and has loaned me the Mravinski set, so later will bring some Russian fire I suspect. This set is completely new to me, perhaps amazingly. I used to have the Fourth, Fifth, and Pathetique on LPs from Klemperer, and have played all three as well, so I am well acquainted with the music, but it must be fiftenn years sinece I last listened to the Fourth or Fifth!

ATB from George

quote:

Tchaikovsky

george,

i thought you dumped your furtwangler!! and to think you held on to the sym. pathetique and not the wagner or beethoven!!!

best

artie

Dear Artie,

No it has gone, but it was a pretty fine performance!

ATB from George

It always amused me that while Tchaikovsky subtitled his symphony pathetic, Berlioz subtitled his fantastic.

That said I've always liked both works

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Artie,

No it has gone, but it was a pretty fine performance!

ATB from George

gffj - have you addressed this reasoning elsewhere on the forum, or do you care to do so here? that is, the nazi issue. i confess to having shied away from certain conductors for this reason in the past, but klemperer's stuff is mostly very old, so .... two issues, as i see it -- the composer / conductor / nazi issue; and, the larger issue of the nexus of an artist's work and his life (picasso, wagner, jim morrison, etc. etc.). my view on the former is "who am i to judge," i suppose. and on the latter, i think it's a fascinating subject about which books can and have been written. this has probably been touched on in several past threads, but here it is again ... perhaps best to start a thread in "padded cell," but i am in particular interested in your view as to what led you to dump your furtwangler - not, by the way, a decision with which i disagree.

Dear Artie,

This Thread, "Furtwangler?", which I posted perhaps two years ago, explains my gradual realisation of my problems with artists active in Germany at that time.

My old Norwegian grandfather, who himself died in 1993, predicted that I would eventually come to this conclusion as I found out more about the close connection between the cultural life of the Third Reich and its Political life.

This position was cemented when I went with Frank F [Forum Menber and friend of mine] to Lublin in 2006 and visited the Death Camp. Majdanek Camp in Lublin, Poland. Furtwangler's Jewish Doctor was brought from just such a place [in fact a Concentration Camp, not a Death Camp] to treat his ailments and returned there afterwards. This was quoted in Sam Shirakawa's biography of Furtwangler as being a point in his favour. The book is rather pro-Furtwangler, and the paradox of the comment seems to have been lost on the author, if not me.

I realise that not everyone will draw the same conclusion, but not everyone knew a man like my grandfather who lived for five years as a member of the Norwegian Resistance [Group 13] under Nazi occupation. Some of what he told me will die with me. I am quite sure that a great deal more that he knew died with him.

I hope that helps.

ATB from George

george, thank you, very interesting. i will review the thread as time permits (for all i know, i posted in it). my grandfather was wounded in the normandy invasion, and i used to work w/ a woman whose father was a luftwaffe ace. we joked that it was he who shot grandpoppa. but there is nothing funny about the death camps. i pursued holocaust studies at university .... while i cannot judge another, i can understand your views, given your relationship w/ your grandfather. a fascinating topic. i followed w/ interest the isreali policy on performing wagner, for example. more for another thread at another time. best, artie

Dear Artie,

It is a painful topic. My reaction was initially less strong than it is now. I have four parcels of my remaining WF discs waiting for me to post as gifts. Then none will remain. I simply stopped playing them, after visiting Poland. I think that experience was like a consummation of the truth of what my old grandfather told me. He was no racist in reality, and would have been rare among his generation as having German colleagues, who were more or less friends, in the period after the war.

He was a brilliant businessman, and had many reasons to visit and be visited by Germans. He spoke very highly of these people, and I don't think he hated Germany as whole, but he certainly had no time for Nazis, and more particularly those who did well by fellow travelling, which he considered every bit as terrible.

I am not really ready to go through this again, as in many ways it brings back memories of my grandfather starting a story, and fading out, and then suppressing tears. He would then go to bed in silence. He wanted to tell the stories. He was proud of some of the actions, but appalled by others, and I think this just goes to show the terrible weight of emotional torment that fighting in a Resistance Movement can leave.

ATB from George

Dear Friends,

A friend recently loaned me the DG Mravinsky set of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth, and I can see why this set is widely admired. It is phenomenally good! More than that it is great music making! I did not quite get on with it though. It is enormously driven and full of energy, but perhaps lacks that feeling of emotional vulnerability, which is very much part of the music for me.

As I said earlier in the Thread, I used to have these Symphonies in Klemperer's studio recordings with the Philharmonia, on LPs, and recently got the stand-alone issue of the Pathetique again on CD.

I have just found the set of the three for £55, which is a lot of money for two CDs. This release is currently deleted, which accounts for the price. I am sorely tempted. But that must be for next weekend to decide after I get paid!

George

The upshot is that I have just "Amazoned" the Klemperer set [second hand] of the The Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Symphonies! Should be here by the weekend.

£55 for two discs. Well, I may be dead next year, and these performances were wonderful when I had them on LPs, so hopeless to wait!

Thanks for the loan of the Mravinsky set, which promted this reacquaintance!

ATB from George

quote:

The upshot is that I have just "Amazoned" the Klemperer set [second hand] of the The Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Symphonies! Should be here by the weekend.

£55 for two discs. Well, I may be dead next year, and these performances were wonderful when I had them on LPs, so hopeless to wait!

Thanks for the loan of the Mravinsky set, which prompted this reacquaintance!

ATB from George

Posts: 10001 Location: Worcester, UK Registered: Sat 09 July 2005

Oh dear, oh dear.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
£55 for two discs. Well, I may be dead next year, and these performances were wonderful when I had them on LPs, so hopeless to wait!
ATB from George

That's the spirit ! - the spirit that keeps those 552's leaving the factory :-)

Enjoy them when they get there.

Ian

Dear Ian,

I do not know whether hearing improves with age. I rather doubt it, but appreciating music certainly does improve!

The other thing that declining [probably] hearing does allow for is enjoying music that is well replayed, but not necessarily as well it can be! I have reached a point of stability with the replay hardware! Except for a digital source for the recordings. Some Hard Drive based system will my furture in this area, and that front is brewing nicely at the moment, offering the chance of very fine replay with minimal space taken up in the living and listening room with a CD library.

For seventeen years I had one unaltered basic set. I think my current arrangements might last even longer!

ATB from George

The Fourth, Fifth and Pathetique arrived on CD from Otto Klemperer and the Philharmonia. Magnefique! More on this later on but here is something from Otto Klemperer on the subject of Piotr Ilych's music from a 1935 interview in the USA:

I give Tchaikowsky's music because it is good music. Tchaikowsky has become the victim of the conductor. Year after year the interpretation of Tchaikowsky has become more and more exaggerated, more and more hysterical and filled with false emotion, until finally and inevitably the music has become the symbol of bad taste. But if you take the trouble to go to the source of the symphonies, to examine the life of the man, and the actual notes of the score, you find a sincere composer with a sincere melodic gift, who wrote simply and sincerely from the heart. The bad taste is not in the music, it is in the people who have interpreted the music.

You may imagine that these performances hardly follow the traditional pattern, and come as a breath of fresh air even among today's more reasonable conductors of the music!

ATB from George

I have the Pathetique as done by the Vienna Philharmonic under Jean Martinon, recorded in 1968 in the Sofiensaal

I do not have any other interpretations but the Martinon seems to me to stir the heart without ever sounding mawkish. It attracts me anyway.

regards
Geoff

Among the twenty odd Beethoven CD I have got over the last months from Klemperer, not to mention the nine of Annie Fischer in the Piano Sonatas, the big surprise for me has been rediscovering the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth [the Pathetique] Symphonies of Tchaikowsky in the 1961/3 EMI recordings led by Otto Klemperer.

I don't think on a technical level I have ever heard the rhythms made more lucid, because Klemperer does not rush through exciting parts, though he does accelerate to some extent here and there, but moderately. BUT the real point is that I have never heard these Symphonies brought out with such emotional sweep. This comes not from the exciting surface of the music, but below the surface. Klemperer's understanding of this music is at a very profound level.

Sadly these are deleted, but still to be found on Amazon, unfortunately at a steep cost.

I shall try to make a detailed discussion of these performances, to give a flavour, but they are so different from the conventional that I am still getting over the revolution that Klemperer brings, merely by playing first and foremost the printed score without whipping up the excitement levels with wild tempo accelerations to hysterical levels. Simply put his steadiness, and extra-ordinarily detailed and lucid phrasing, only possible with a really fine and responsive orchestra - and the Philharmonia was indeed such an orchestra - allows for expressive thrust only dreamt of in many performances. These are "gold bullion" performances.

George