CDX/Nait2/Kan-II's good match,but...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

After a few days I get used to the new kit and ask myself why I cannot recognize that big improvement any more. So I need the next upgrade

Maybe the differences are smaller, the more expensive the items are: Compare the sonic difference between Marantz CD63KI, CDX and CDS to the financial difference between them! People might prefer the performance of a CD3.5/Nait3/Intro2 to a CDX/Nait3/SBL (or CDS/Nait3/DBL)...?

Dunno if this helps...
Jun

P.S.: Have you ever tried to listen to your pre-upgraded system?

We all have fond memories of our first 'experience'. Hindsight can be 20/20. This can be especially true as our expectations increase along with our investment.

I may be in a somewhat unique position to comment upon this subject, as I regularly have the opportunity to listen to my first real hifi system, as my sister now owns it. When I am at her home my expectations are much lower than when I am here listening to my current setup. Strangely enough, I often enjoy the music from her system just as much as I do from mine, yet I am in no doubt that my system is far better at sounding like real performers playing in real time. Also I know that I could never return to using that system again. I think that it is as David Antonelli (at least I think it was he) once commented, how it was the good company and the relaxed atmosphere (holidays etc.) that let him open up to the sound, and enjoy it without worrying about having made the right expensive upgrade decision.

It's all to do with expectations, me thinks.

BTW, what has been happening with your stand efforts. Many CDX users have reported a sensitivity to supports. The cable fiddling will only take you further away from your known reference point (and cause you to lose some valuable FEPs into the bargain ).

Craig

(hmm,makes me think. Does that mean the price/performance rate of Naim is not that good?)

btw:Graig. I did order a new (welded) rack,by Apollo. (the AD3) But the store called me it would take another 2 to 3 weeks.

I tried both "VandenHul" cables because they where highly praised in tha mags,by people I know who use 'em and on the internet,but most of all because they are way more flexible than the damn Nac-a5,but...after some trying at home I'm back with the naca5! (as expected,unfortunately)

Well, time to get me some sleep now.
(hope I'm not getting this terrible nightmare of selling/trading in my Naim goodies for some round-earth stuff,eh )

Greetings,

I know I wouldn't fool around with cables - NACA5 is terrific.

Having said that, you have my sympathies. It's awful to have one's hopes dashed when music is concerned. Is it possible to plug in the Marantz? If you can, you may find a problem - either withthe CDX or with your memory.

Regards.

Phil

Never satisfied hey, that's bad. BUT, I know what you mean. I often think I was happier with my Sony 555es + Naim 90/3-92-fc + MA Studio 2 than I am with my present CDI + 102 + Hi + napsc + 180 + Intro's.
I think I'll buy me some MA Studio 20's when I have the funds. Maybe you also miss the MA sound?!

Good luck with it!

Greetz, Bas

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

I think it stems from two things. First, when you spend a hell of a lot of money on gear, you generate expectations they your gear simply can't match. Rather than stopping there, however, you figure to yourself "gee, that last 5k I just dropped really didn't do it. Maybe another 2k will get me there"). Then you end up throwing good money after bad. I think the nastalgia of your old system comes in to play here as well, because you think back about how good of a "value" it was (gee, you don't even remember how much you paid for it--couldn't have been more than a few dollars--heck, almost free--ahh what a great system).

The second thing that I think plays a role is that the more money you spend (and more boxes you acquire) the more problems pop up with). A Maranzt sounds great on your cheap sound org (for instance), but the CDX needs Mana (for instance). This has a way of getting away from you. Better gear comes with greater responsibility.

[ok, hold on to your chairs now]
And, BTW, don't think for a second that the guys who spout of on this forum with thier holier than though atitude about how Naim is all about the "music" and "lesser" crap only knows how to make good sound. This is bullshit. When you add a hicap--you get better bass--but no more music. CDX's sound better than cd3.5's--no doubt. But I honestly believe that I never squeezed even one TINY extra drop of music out of my 82/250 system compared to my Nait 2/90 system. Sure, the 82/250 "sounded better". But that's all. It just "sounded better". All Naim gear makes GREAT music. Look, I now have some "nicer stuff" (read "midlevel Naim), and I love it. I'm sold. But I'm also circumspective.

[ok, done]

I remember my first Naim system (Nait 2/pre-nap 90-LP12/Valhalla/Ittock/BPS-Spica TC-50's), and when I think about what I have now (the cost of which makes me sick to my stomach) I "KNOW" I simply enjoyed my old system more. I just know it. It got so bad, I went all the way up to a decked out LP12/ARO then Ekos, dyna 17dMKII, VDH, nac 82, blah blah blah--and sold the whole lot of it and started over. I swear, my LP12/ittock/BPS was more enjoyable to listen to. Now I'm back up again (with SBL's to boot).

I'm trying to focus on other things to keep my mind of it. I've gotten rid of all things that play records and am focussing on cd's. But I'll be back. I always am. But I hear ya.

[ducking for cover]

Judd

I have not heard the 500, the 52, NBL's, supercaps, blah blah blah. Can only speak from my own experience (which is to say, only up to an 82/hicaps/250/sbls.

Judd

It's all in the mind - chill. I thought you folks from Holland knew how to do that

From my perspetive the CDX was really the first CD player that really made me think, "yes, I can really hear the music".

In a funny kind of way that makes a CDX entry level. Why don't you think about it like that??

Jay

I still like changing thinks in the system (tinkering is fun) but it's never because I'm not happy with it's sound. I spent a good bit of last night sitting in my study (which is where my main system lives) listening to old or new stuff and really loving it. My wife (who likes music but isn't into hifi) came in and sat with me for a while to listen to the new Dandy Warhols CD and after that I had a real experience spinning the Dark Side of the Moon on vinyl through my very mundane Project deck. That's what it's about for me.

Cheers
Steve

Regards

Stephen

quote:

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I'm beginning to wonder if my system should perform better than it does. (for the money)

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Alco, can you describe what traits of your system sound you like and don't like? As you know I am running exactly the same system, and I love it. I honestly can't think of a better CD based system for the money.

The only differences between our systems is setup - mine is on a QS Ref (which to my ears suits it radically better than the far leaner and more forward phase 1 Mana I used until recently), I also have a music works mains block and mains lead for the CDX which IMHO makes for a far cleaner and more friendly sound. My system is not especially impressive sounding in a hi-fi sense, it is certainly possible to get a way bigger and bass heavy sound for the money, but I defy you to get more music out of a CD at the price. This system really hooks the listener in. The accusations of being harsh / hard / bright etc that are occasionally levelled at Nait / Kan systems just hold no water here, it is open, warm and bouncy and very easy to listen to.

How old is your Nait 2? It may just be asking for a service / re-capping.

Tony.

I have recently concluded that the Naim upgrade path is somewhat insideous and I'm glad to have deviated from it.

I'm sure it doesn't, but I almost decided that Naim 'mid' priced equipment had a sort of built-in dissatisfaction factor which almost forced you to upgrade (ie. buy a CDX - you need an XPS; buy an 82 - you need a Supercap).

I was happy with CD3/32.5/HC/250/AE1s. Then I thought I'd better improve the CD source relative to my LP12 and bought a CDX. This was immediately disappointing for two reasons: 1. Compared to vinyl it was still crap; 2. Compared to a CDX + PSU or a CDS2 it was fairly crap yet rather expensive.

Alex

quote:

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I'm sure it doesn't, but I almost decided that Naim 'mid' priced equipment had a sort of built-in dissatisfaction factor which almost forced you to upgrade (ie. buy a CDX - you need an XPS; buy an 82 - you need a Supercap).

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I really don't understand why the CDX is such a controversial product. To me it just works, and I have no reservations about its performance. Yes, it is expensive, 2.4k is a hell of a lot of money from my perspective, but I can't think of a better CD player at that price point (if I could I would own it!).

The comparison against vinyl is not really relevant. Ok, so better performance can be had from big black disks at the price (P9 etc), but this is not of any interest if it is a CD that one is attempting to play. All that matters is getting the best CD player you can, and for me the CDX is the cheapest one that I can listen to completely happily. I have heard the CDX sound a little edgy in some systems, but I honestly put this down to setup as I simply do not encounter this trait at all.

Tony.

Alex

PS Looks like your 32.5 is on the move again (I'll still have my original one though - I do have some Naim sentimentality left).

quote:

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If a stand-alone CDX works for you I'm very pleased. I would not be at all surprised if it sounded better through a Nait and Kans than it did through my 82/SC/250 and N805s or AE1s.

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I suspect this is the case. This is for two reasons:

• The above system would be critically back end heavy with a CDX alone as the source. A mullet system if ever I saw one! The CDX / Nait / Kan system is far more logically balanced.

• To my ears the tweeter of the Kan is very much better than the metal dome devices in either speakers you mention above. I actually suspect these to be the cause of a lot of your recent system problems. I suspect the fact that all the speakers that are constantly recommended here (prime period Linn, Royd, Naim etc) use high quality soft dome tweeters is no coincidence.

quote:

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But if you haven't heard a CDX/XPS (or CDPS) yet, then I suggest you don't.

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Well, three of my friends have a CDS2 and one has a CDX/XPS, plus I have a top flight turntable myself…

Tony.

Thanx for all your replies.
to Tony: Yes, be both have the same Nait/CDX/Kan system and I must honestly say, I can't really mention one thing that I really don't like about it. it's just that sometimes it seems that the sound is a little boxy,hard,flat and tiring.

But,....I find it hard to believe it's the system itself. So, i did some thinking and came up with some things that might be the cause to this (occasional!) dissatisfaction.

About 2,5 months ago I got me some 'click' laminate in my livingroom.
Sure, it looks better than my old carpet but my system din't like it that much. The sound has become more forward and edgy.

In this same period i got me the CDX.
Now, As good as the CDX is,it's probably also very able to show up less well recorded CD's,which will result in a more forward sound.

the last thing that might be part of the problem is still that big firaplace in between the Kans.

these 3 thing together might be the cause of this,couldn't it?

otherwise, it's just me going

Greetings,
Alco

quote:

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The above system would be critically back end heavy with a CDX alone as the source. A mullet system if ever I saw one! The CDX / Nait / Kan system is far more logically balanced.

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Something else that has interested me is that so many Naim dealers sell you Nautilus speakers almost as a matter of course. Are margins that high? Perhaps, just perhaps this speaker range can work with Naim electronics. My opinion is that it doesn't particularly.

I know that ported, metal domed tweeter speakers are loathed on this forum and often for good reason. The 805s which used to boom and sound top end harsh (although contrary to standard myth they have always been quick) are completely transformed by my Dynavector amps: suddenly the treble is sweet and the bass is well defined. I'm not trolling or drawing any particular conclusions. This is a simple statement of fact.

In any event, I am narrowing down the search for the 805 replacement. I will novelly entitle this 'the result of my speaker trials' in due course (when all the candidates are actually available).

Alex

quote:

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About 2,5 months ago I got me some 'click' laminate in my livingroom.
Sure, it looks better than my old carpet but my system din't like it that much. The sound has become more forward and edgy.

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This will certainly be a big factor, and may possibly be the whole problem. Ideally one of each opposing pair of surfaces should have some kind of absorption / diffraction to reduce standing waves. I also have a real wood laminate floor (maple, yes, I bought a flat to match my P9!), and yes it took some taming. I have a large rug in front of the speakers which really helps, and I have thought about everything I have in the room and how its position may affect the sound. My records, CDs, paintings, houseplants etc all have a beneficial effect in damping the room. Perhaps you should give your room acoustics some careful thought, plus don't be afraid to get that Nait serviced if its due for one!

Tony.

Sending the Nait2 to Naim for a recap would mean I can't listen to music for weeks/months?

That's pure horror! I'm not sure i can bring up so much patience.

btw: I'm thinking of moving to another appartment in the centre of town,in the near future and if i do I probably won't get me a hard wooden floor again.

See y'all

Alco

quote:

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How can I tell when my Nait2 needs a recap ? It still sounds great and is from '91.

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Naim suggest that their amps are recapped every eight to ten years to ensure optimum performance, so yours is at the high end of that range. Mine is in that area too as it was made in 92, I plan to get it done within the next year, though I am lucky as I have a 'backup' Nait 1 in my other system! There are many Naim amps out there that are well older than ten years old and have never been looked at that are still going strong (my 14 year old Nait 1 still works), the point is that a good service by Naim will get your Nait back to sounding as good as new.

I would suggest phoning or emailing Naim for a lead time prior to sending your amp off as I suspect the speed they return the serviced amp to you depends entirely on how much is in the queue ahead of you. I have heard people say they have had their amps back within two weeks, though they took bloody ages doing my old 32.5 / Hicap / 250 - about 5-6 weeks IIRC (and I had to listen to music via a bloody Krell someone lent me…). It was well worth doing.

Tony.

David

is it possible to borrow some of the downgrade options you mentioned? Maybe then you can take a step back and consider your situation?

quote:

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Now, As good as the CDX is,it's probably also very able to show up less well recorded CD's,which will result in a more forward sound.

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I used to believe this, until I got a CDX. With the lesser players I've owned, (Rega Planet, 3.5, f-cap then h-cap) I'd dread certain discs, for example some 80's pressings of Black Flag and Billie Holliday. They'd be irritatingly thin and hard sounding- unlistenable.

The CDX fixes all the harshness (for lack of a better word) while actually adding to the sense of attack and flow. I especially like the bass; I never realized that bass could have "detail".
CDs which I previously dreaded as unlistenable are just great with the CDX now, thank you very much.

I remember Mike Hanson writing somewhere that the better CDPs have less high frequency distortion or some such thing?

So, I don't understand why people say the better your CDP gets, the worse your shitty CDs sound. I've experienced exactly the opposite.

[This message was edited by Mike Sae on THURSDAY 15 November 2001 at 21:11.]