Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique /ORR * Gardiner

I haven't heard Gardner but I have doubts about using "original" instruments from this period. Who knows what was the age of the instruments actually used in the first performances?
There are several good versions around. A lot of folks like Beecham with the ORTF Orchestra. I have this but overall, I prefer Colin Davis on LSO live.
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
I haven't heard Gardner but I have doubts about using "original" instruments from this period. Who knows what was the age of the instruments actually used in the first performances?
Ken

the original instruments have different range of colors than modern instruments, which suits the piece very well. the first performance is well documented, especially regarding instrumentation.

The symphony is scored for an orchestra consisting of 2 flutes (2nd doubling piccolo), 2 oboes (2nd doubling english horn), 2 clarinets (1st doubling E-flat clarinet), 4 bassoons, 4 French horns, 2 trumpets, 2 cornets, 3 trombones, 2 ophicleides (originally one ophicleide and one serpent), 2 pairs of timpani, snare drum, cymbals, bass drum, bells in C and G, 2 harps, and strings.

The Symphonie Fantastique was initially composed in 1830 and first performed in December of the same year under the direction of Habeneck. Berlioz however revised the work extensively during his trip to Italy in 1831-2 and in subsequent years and did not publish it until 1845. The work as we now know it is thus substantially different from the original of 1830, which can no longer be reconstructed in full detail.

it is a fresh look at the piece, and i greatly enjoyed it.

my previous favorite is boulez/cleveland.
this is my new favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
I haven't heard Gardner but I have doubts about using "original" instruments from this period.

I used to have such doubts, but after hearing Gardiner's take on Berlioz's masterpiece, Les Troyens, I'm not averse to the idea. That written, I'm not sure I need another version or that Gardiner is the ideal conductor for this work. I'm also dubious about the Symphonie being some kind of demarcation line between classical and romantic music.


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quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
I'm also dubious about the Symphonie being some kind of demarcation line between classical and romantic music.
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actually, romanticism had been creeping into music for a while, but the symphonie fantastique made a total break in form and instrumentation, that, and the fact that it's completely programmatic.

quote of berlioz : "The composer’s intention has been to develop various episodes in the life of an artist, in so far as they lend themselves to musical treatment. As the work cannot rely on the assistance of speech, the plan of the instrumental drama needs to be set out in advance. The following programme must therefore be considered as the spoken text of an opera, which serves to introduce musical movements and to motivate their character and expression."

Mozart never did that!

chopin would be the other major figure in the break from classicism during this period.

check your Grove's :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:...and the fact that it's completely programmatic.

I've never really bought into the absolute vs programmatic music idea, particularly given all of the opera out there (and I'm not just thinking of text). Berlioz, Chopin, and Schumann all helped develop what is commonly thought of as "romantic" music, but I don't see any single work as being the (or a) definitive starting point for purely romantic music, irrespective of what Groves may say.


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quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:

I've never really bought into the absolute vs programmatic music idea,

I don't see any single work as being the (or a) definitive starting point for purely romantic music, irrespective of what Groves may say.

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absloute and programmatic are two different styles of writing music, and have a definite relationship to musical form, which is generally "looser" in programmatic music. so it's more like chocolate-vanilla than either-or.

symphonie fantastic is just the best known early romantic symphony that completely breaks with the past. and there is absloutely no doubt that it is programmatic.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
absloute and programmatic are two different styles of writing music,

Again, I don't really agree with this demarcation between styles. I've read about it for years, but I've also read about composers (living and deceased) and others who have questioned it. It's a nice academic construct, I suppose.

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quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
Again, I don't really agree with this demarcation between styles. --

how about between baroque and expressionist?
(aka schoenberg)

descriptive terms help sort things out.

applying the same attitude to food would result in one line resturant reviews that either said (a) good food and (b) bad food.

not really very helpful.

please suggest an alternative.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
how about between baroque and expressionist?

That's delineating time periods and associated overall compositional styles and soundworlds (for lack of a better word), not the "content" and/or "purpose" of the music, like with the concept of absolute vs. programmatic music. That's a pretty big difference.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by the restaurant metaphor: I'd expect a restaurant review would delve into specifics of meals, just as concert reviews delve into specifics of the music played - things such as how an orchestra (or other ensemble/performer) handled particularly difficult passages, how the brass sounded, etc. That has little or nothing to do with absolute vs. programmatic music.

There's no need for me to suggest an "alternative," because I don't need an "alternative." You like the distinction, that's fine; you should understand that other people don't like or need or value such distinctions.


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quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
That's delineating time periods and associated overall compositional styles and soundworlds (for lack of a better word), not the "content" and/or "purpose" of the music, like with the concept of absolute vs. programmatic music. That's a pretty big difference.
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absloute music is music written to a plan not based on a narrative. programmatic music is music written to a plan based on a narrative
before or after the fact (richard strauss "a hero's life" and "symphonia domesticia" , the program narrative was added after the music was completed). they describe differences in compositional technique, and have no other meaning. they never did.

from wikipedia :

Absolute music (sometimes abstract music) is a term used to describe music that is not explicitly "about" anything, non-representational or non-objective. In contrast with program music, absolute music has no references to stories or images or any other kind of extramusical idea.

The symphonie fantastique is explicitly written to a narrative, said narrative being part of the score.

Accademic compartmentalisations aside, has anone here listened to Pierre Monteux's first recording of this, done in Paris in 1930?

It is a wonderful performance, and more than adequately served as a recording in the transfer on Pearl CD.

I am not going to fully detail the [for once] rather significant information contained in the very fine sleeve note, but suffice it to say that the score used by Monteux was one used in the presense of the composer and containing marking made at his request during rehearsal.

This score came to Monteux from Colonne [an orchestra in Paris stems directly from Colonne who was a musical associate of Berlioz], and was one of his most prized possesions. When Paris fell, the Nazis stole the score along with all the others in Monteux's library, so there are aspects in that performance which stem directly from what Berlioz asked for in rehearsal a century earlier!

That is by the way, but for me this remains easily my favourite, and I commend it as an appendix for any who love this music.

On the issue of "programme" and "absolute" music, I rarely enjoy the programmatic, if the result is that the structure becomes slack, but even if the Fantastic Symphony is "programmatic" [and it certainly is], I listen to it as pure music, and it makes perfect sense as such as well!

The strange thing about "programmatic" music is that some "absolute" music is certainly also "programmatic," but we are not given the programme by the composers!

Anyway, it certainly is not to worry about! George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
has anyone here listened to Pierre Monteux's first recording of this, done in Paris in 1930?

I am not going to fully detail the [for once] rather significant information contained in the very fine sleeve note, but suffice it to say

On the issue of "programme" and "absolute" music, it certainly is not to worry about! George

1 - i am hunting down the monteux as soon as i finish this post.

2 - it does not suffice, please go into greater detail :-)

3 - of course, no worries ...

For once the note [which is at huge length] contains not only a description of the music, its significance in musical history, and the conditions pertaining at early performances, but relates this directly to Monteux's coming to the music and the link via Colonne, and the gift of the now lost early score.

I suspect that in some ways it remains a unique and unrepeatable performance in terms of its histoorical aspect. Even Monteux kept using the original shellac discs [in prefertence to his later LP recordings] to show the music to friends and students, and considered it his best recorded performance.

I am going to dig it out now! It would take me hours to transcrbe the notes, but it is probably my favourite recording of French music. Perhaps equal to Monteux's [Covent Garden, Decca] recording of Daphnis, depending how romantic/modernish I am feeling!

Best wishes, all, from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
the conditions pertaining at early performances,

the cd is $50 now, as it has been discontinued. it has to wait a few weeks.

meanwhile, if you could post some notes on the conditions at early performance, it would be appreciated.

do that, and i will research the topic of your choice to return the favor :-)

*

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KenM:
I haven't heard Gardner but I have doubts about using "original" instruments from this period. Who knows what was the age of the instruments actually used in the first performances?
Ken

the original instruments have different range of colors than modern instruments, which suits the piece very well. the first performance is well documented, especially regarding instrumentation.


Mike,
My point was that the instruments used in the 1845 performance would possibly have had a wide range of ages. Instruments from the 1600s would have sounded diferent from those of the 1700s or 1800s. Unless information on this point is available, we cannot possibly know what constitutes an authentic performance.

Having said that, I will certainly try to listen to the Gardner version. It's a pity that I cannot afford the price currently asked for the Monteux.
Regards,
Ken

You can't really do better than Colin Davis's second recording of the piece, and his first ever recording with the marvellous Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips).

Nerds only: He recorded it three times for Philips with the LSO, Concertgebouw and Wiener Phil respectively, before his current showing with the LSO on LSO Live.

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
I haven't heard Gardner but I have doubts about using "original" instruments from this period. Who knows what was the age of the instruments actually used in the first performances?
Ken

given berlioz' association with sax, and the musical forment in paris at the time, i would speculate that the latest innovations in instruments were on stage at the premier.

anyway, my original point was that the gardiner cd is a great deal of fun. in fact i listened to it three times last night - louder each time.
it was so DRAMATIC and i really did hear a number of inner voice details that were new to me. horray to gardiner for making the attempt.