Weather Report
Posted by: Sloop John B on 23 November 2005
40 years young a mere week ago and no knowledge of Weather Report.
As this venerated institution has set me right about Jackson Browne are ther any out there that would like to lead me into Weather Report's highway of super sounds but keep me away form their boreen of distracted doodlings (that is indeed if there are any duff albums to avoid, but I find there usually is and I seem to have the unfortunate knack of aquiring these first)
As this venerated institution has set me right about Jackson Browne are ther any out there that would like to lead me into Weather Report's highway of super sounds but keep me away form their boreen of distracted doodlings (that is indeed if there are any duff albums to avoid, but I find there usually is and I seem to have the unfortunate knack of aquiring these first)
Saw them live in Manchester around 1982
My favourites are weather Report 8.30 a very good double live album and Procession.
Another similar ensemble are the jellowjackets I have an album called Four corners, very good indeed and certainly not fiddly diddly
My favourites are weather Report 8.30 a very good double live album and Procession.
Another similar ensemble are the jellowjackets I have an album called Four corners, very good indeed and certainly not fiddly diddly
With maybe the exception of In A Silent way, doncha think those pieces were maybe very nearly progressive rock, rather than Jazz? You couldn't say that of fusion such as Return To Forever or Mahavishnu, or even Bitches Brew. Maybe Weather Report were less Jazz than Joe Zawinul's later output.
Talking of "random noodles", isn't unpredictability and freedom and "going off on one" the essence of Jazz? Isn't Jazz fundamentally about being released from the structure of rehearsed songs? OK, it doesn't always work!
That's a pretty interesting insight Fred, which fits pretty well with the massive difference between Dreamhouse and Remember The River. You've changed Fred. And change is always healthy. I expect you will have a totally different view in 6 months time.
It's good to be discussing this stuff with you again Fred.
Talking of "random noodles", isn't unpredictability and freedom and "going off on one" the essence of Jazz? Isn't Jazz fundamentally about being released from the structure of rehearsed songs? OK, it doesn't always work!
That's a pretty interesting insight Fred, which fits pretty well with the massive difference between Dreamhouse and Remember The River. You've changed Fred. And change is always healthy. I expect you will have a totally different view in 6 months time.
It's good to be discussing this stuff with you again Fred.
.
I wouldn't consider any of the pieces I cited anywhere near progressive rock. In my view, Birdland is modern big-band, A Remark You Made is a modern jazz ballad, In A Silent Way is a meditative modal ballad, and Unknown Soldier is a jazz-classical tone poem. I wouldn't consider any of Weather report's output to be progressive rock ... later Return To Forever and Mahavishnu Orchestra fit that bill much better.
My view is that successful jazz doesn't consist of unpredictability per se, but rather the relationship between predictability and unpredictability, between structure and improvisation. Take any number of Duke Ellington pieces ... some may contain only 8 or 16 bars of improvised solo, but no one could call the music anything but jazz.
By his own account, most of Zawinul's composition is generated by improvisation and then revision and refinement. To my ear, his best pieces are those that were perhaps generated in that way, and retain that freshness and spontaneity, but also sound like composed, tuneful melodies that could be "song" songs. Like the ones I cited, or like Cannonball, Five Short Stories, or Dr. Honoris Causa.
Much of Zawinul's post-Weather Report writing sounds random in the sense that the note choices are not inevitable ... in other words, why does this note follow that note? Pat Metheny talks about this often, that when he composes he wants it to sound like the melody is inevitable ... that each note has to be that note and only that note in only that place. I have always aspired to this goal as well.
How would you characterize this "massive difference"?
For myself, the main differences between the two albums are largely instrument choices ... Dreamhouse has drums but no woodwinds, Remember the River has woodwinds but no drums. The other main difference is in the bass chair ... on Remember the River Steve Rodby's personal musical dialect and aesthetic is very closely aligned with my own, whereas on Dreamhouse that of Kelly Sill is more tied to the straight-ahead jazz tradition. Aside from that, I don't hear that much difference between the two albums.
All the best,
Fred
.
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
With maybe the exception of In A Silent way, doncha think those pieces were maybe very nearly progressive rock, rather than Jazz?
I wouldn't consider any of the pieces I cited anywhere near progressive rock. In my view, Birdland is modern big-band, A Remark You Made is a modern jazz ballad, In A Silent Way is a meditative modal ballad, and Unknown Soldier is a jazz-classical tone poem. I wouldn't consider any of Weather report's output to be progressive rock ... later Return To Forever and Mahavishnu Orchestra fit that bill much better.
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
Talking of "random noodles", isn't unpredictability and freedom and "going off on one" the essence of Jazz? Isn't Jazz fundamentally about being released from the structure of rehearsed songs? OK, it doesn't always work!
My view is that successful jazz doesn't consist of unpredictability per se, but rather the relationship between predictability and unpredictability, between structure and improvisation. Take any number of Duke Ellington pieces ... some may contain only 8 or 16 bars of improvised solo, but no one could call the music anything but jazz.
By his own account, most of Zawinul's composition is generated by improvisation and then revision and refinement. To my ear, his best pieces are those that were perhaps generated in that way, and retain that freshness and spontaneity, but also sound like composed, tuneful melodies that could be "song" songs. Like the ones I cited, or like Cannonball, Five Short Stories, or Dr. Honoris Causa.
Much of Zawinul's post-Weather Report writing sounds random in the sense that the note choices are not inevitable ... in other words, why does this note follow that note? Pat Metheny talks about this often, that when he composes he wants it to sound like the melody is inevitable ... that each note has to be that note and only that note in only that place. I have always aspired to this goal as well.
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
That's a pretty interesting insight Fred, which fits pretty well with the massive difference between Dreamhouse and Remember The River. You've changed Fred. And change is always healthy. I expect you will have a totally different view in 6 months time.
It's good to be discussing this stuff with you again Fred.
How would you characterize this "massive difference"?
For myself, the main differences between the two albums are largely instrument choices ... Dreamhouse has drums but no woodwinds, Remember the River has woodwinds but no drums. The other main difference is in the bass chair ... on Remember the River Steve Rodby's personal musical dialect and aesthetic is very closely aligned with my own, whereas on Dreamhouse that of Kelly Sill is more tied to the straight-ahead jazz tradition. Aside from that, I don't hear that much difference between the two albums.
All the best,
Fred
.
Oh Man, where to start!!? You've now taken the lid well and truly off this one..
You've given me some expressions that I was searching for; good descriptions.
Relationship between predictability and unpredictability works only in one direction, and in the mind of the musician doing the creating. The possibilities of all music start as unpredicatable, but once we know the musician this to some extent becomes predictable, and the refinement continues from there. Surely that is what makes a new piece of music instantly recognisable as the work of whoever (?). We know the mind of the musician and what to expect to some extent, and only that musician believes that they can be so varied that they can go anywhere. I'm thinking as a listener here and not as a musician.
Jimmy Page talked of the progession of Kashmir and how John Paul Jones said it couldn't be done, but Page worked and worked on it to come through. In those circumstances there may only be one outcome (technically), but in the case of Pat Metheney, his "inevitable" note progression, this inevitability exists only in his head and only because he is Pat Metheney. The inevitability factor is entirely due to personal, self development; almost religious, a spiritual path.
If a path of self discovery is inevitable, where does that leave spontaneity?, and more to the point, Jazz? Sure, it's still Jazz, but the Jazz you aspire to with the relationship between predictability and unpredictabilty can never be acheived, because there is no room for unpredictability. It may surprise you, the direction that a piece takes, but it would be inevitable all the same.
Maybe it is all inevitable?
As you say, Joe Zawinul's post-Weather Report sounds random and note choices not inevitable. Why should he not choose to do this? Why isn't this a fascinating path to take, to break the pattern? You hear it as "Random Noodlings" and to be honest, it probably is, but surely it's fine to accept that maybe it doesn't always work, but maybe, just once, out of chaos, it does.
Dreamhouse and Remember The River to me are far more different than the instrument choices, and you put your finger on it when you mentioned the term "composed". Dreamhouse to me sounds like ideas that you have been working on for a while, some for a very long while (and maybe some not fully finished), taken into a recording situation and feeling slightly swept along by the session, and feeling maybe as though you were not making the recording you wanted to at the time. Almost like you wanted to stop and re-think it, but couldn't. As a listener, I love that. I can hear a slight nervousness and tension in it, and the way that some parts - not yours - are maybe not what you wanted personally. I know you are happy with it now and have put it to rest, and I think that particular quality gives it something extra that maybe you can't see being so close to it. It damn well works though! It has a slight edginess and I play it a lot. Remember The River on the other hand is more "composed" (thanks again for that word) and it feels very comfortable by comparison. I can see what you are doing and I suspect that this is a result of your reaction to the Dreamhouse sessions. What I do love about Remember The River, and you are going to think I'm crazy here, is the fact that I didn't love it as much as Dreamhouse when I thought I was going to. I thought that was quite exciting and unexpected and now makes me look forward to hearing the next one to see where that goes. I'm pretty sure though, that the majority loved it more than Dreamhouse from what I've read on this forum. I'm also quite pleased about that too. That'll make you unpredictable then, and I see that as a good thing, and you probably won't like that.
You're right about Birdland.
We'll have to find a way of booking you a few gigs over here in the UK, Fred.
Not sure how this relates to the original question though!
It isn't often you get a chance to discuss these things with someone whos music you buy.
You've now taken the lid well and truly off this one..You've given me some expressions that I was searching for; good descriptions.
Relationship between predictability and unpredictability works only in one direction, and in the mind of the musician doing the creating. The possibilities of all music start as unpredicatable, but once we know the musician this to some extent becomes predictable, and the refinement continues from there. Surely that is what makes a new piece of music instantly recognisable as the work of whoever (?). We know the mind of the musician and what to expect to some extent, and only that musician believes that they can be so varied that they can go anywhere. I'm thinking as a listener here and not as a musician.
Jimmy Page talked of the progession of Kashmir and how John Paul Jones said it couldn't be done, but Page worked and worked on it to come through. In those circumstances there may only be one outcome (technically), but in the case of Pat Metheney, his "inevitable" note progression, this inevitability exists only in his head and only because he is Pat Metheney. The inevitability factor is entirely due to personal, self development; almost religious, a spiritual path.
If a path of self discovery is inevitable, where does that leave spontaneity?, and more to the point, Jazz? Sure, it's still Jazz, but the Jazz you aspire to with the relationship between predictability and unpredictabilty can never be acheived, because there is no room for unpredictability. It may surprise you, the direction that a piece takes, but it would be inevitable all the same.
Maybe it is all inevitable?
As you say, Joe Zawinul's post-Weather Report sounds random and note choices not inevitable. Why should he not choose to do this? Why isn't this a fascinating path to take, to break the pattern? You hear it as "Random Noodlings" and to be honest, it probably is, but surely it's fine to accept that maybe it doesn't always work, but maybe, just once, out of chaos, it does.
Dreamhouse and Remember The River to me are far more different than the instrument choices, and you put your finger on it when you mentioned the term "composed". Dreamhouse to me sounds like ideas that you have been working on for a while, some for a very long while (and maybe some not fully finished), taken into a recording situation and feeling slightly swept along by the session, and feeling maybe as though you were not making the recording you wanted to at the time. Almost like you wanted to stop and re-think it, but couldn't. As a listener, I love that. I can hear a slight nervousness and tension in it, and the way that some parts - not yours - are maybe not what you wanted personally. I know you are happy with it now and have put it to rest, and I think that particular quality gives it something extra that maybe you can't see being so close to it. It damn well works though! It has a slight edginess and I play it a lot. Remember The River on the other hand is more "composed" (thanks again for that word) and it feels very comfortable by comparison. I can see what you are doing and I suspect that this is a result of your reaction to the Dreamhouse sessions. What I do love about Remember The River, and you are going to think I'm crazy here, is the fact that I didn't love it as much as Dreamhouse when I thought I was going to. I thought that was quite exciting and unexpected and now makes me look forward to hearing the next one to see where that goes. I'm pretty sure though, that the majority loved it more than Dreamhouse from what I've read on this forum. I'm also quite pleased about that too. That'll make you unpredictable then, and I see that as a good thing, and you probably won't like that.
You're right about Birdland.
We'll have to find a way of booking you a few gigs over here in the UK, Fred.
Not sure how this relates to the original question though!
It isn't often you get a chance to discuss these things with someone whos music you buy.
This is getting quite interesting!
regards, Chris M.
regards, Chris M.
Yikes Chris, this is getting very interesting!
Yeah, it does flow and maybe I didn't put that too well, but I sense that Fred is sitting on the edge of his piano stool all the same. It's like it's live and there's only one stab at it.
Fred, you worry me when you go quiet. I hope you're not upset about us discussing your music like this.
quote:
I do not hear Dreamhouse as having a "slight edginess" it flows beautifully as far as I am concerned,
Nic
Yeah, it does flow and maybe I didn't put that too well, but I sense that Fred is sitting on the edge of his piano stool all the same. It's like it's live and there's only one stab at it.
Fred, you worry me when you go quiet. I hope you're not upset about us discussing your music like this.
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
It's like it's live and there's only one stab at it.
That is a nice description. Surely that must be better than umpteen takes where you could perhaps end up losing the edge that you were alluding to before? It also tends to highlight the confidence and belief in what you are doing.
Had both albums on during this discussion just to make sure I am not talking total bollocks. There is definitely a more haunting, mournful vibe to Remember The River, and not simply because of the Oboe/soprano sax. I would be interested to hear the background to the development of the two albums, to understand why. If that is not too personal a question Fred.
Regards
Nic
.
No, not at all. To be honest, it's flattering. It's just that a thoughtful response takes time, and occasionally I just need to get away from the computer.
Anyway, in my view there are a few significant differences between the two albums. The genesis of Dreamhouse was that Sarah and I were playing a weekly gig in a tavern, with a rotating cast of bass playing friends. One day, Ken Christianson came in to hear us. I knew Ken over the years, but we had never worked together. After the set he asked if I wanted to record the trio for Naim, and I readily agreed. The bassist on the gig that night was an old friend, the wonderful Bill Harrison, but as one of the most in demand bassists in Chicago, he was unable to make his schedule fit the recording dates Ken needed to book. So we called Kelly Sill, another old friend (with whom I go back more than 35 years, and who was also the first bassist in the Simon & Bard Group).
Dreamhouse is basically my take on a traditional blowing date, a spontaneously organized ensemble with minimal rehearsal and certain similarities to a live gig. There's a looser, more unworried sense of arrangement, and for each of us the task, and the fun, is to let go and enjoy the ride. In terms of musical language, we are all speaking the same language but with different dialects. Although I didn't feel any nervousness or extramusical tension while recording, nor do I hear it when listening, I would think that your perception of the music is colored by the above factors.
Remember the River came about after an invitation from Naim to record another album. I knew I wanted bassist Steve Rodby and I met with him to hash out some ideas. His suggestion was to do it without drums so that our individual and collective dynamic range could be much wider and more expressive. It occurred to me to do it as a trio with Rodby and McCandless ... Steve, Paul, and Ken, were all very much into the project.
Again there was minimal rehearsal, but built on a much deeper musical foundation and a closely shared dialect. In various combinations, the three of us had made many albums together ... in that sense, ours was a long-standing trio. Still, the task was that in addition to a more intense focus on the finer details of the compositions and their performance, we each again had to let go and enjoy the ride. Ultimately, Remember the River is much more personal, and more satisfying, for me as a complete representation of my fully realized musical voice.
Each album consists of pretty much the same ratio of composition to improvisation ... in most (but not all) tunes: more of the former, less of the latter. Each record features a mix of new tunes, older tunes, and very old tunes. Both albums were recorded in less than two days each, with many first and second takes on each. In fact, we didn't need to do a lot of takes of anything on either album except maybe one or two tunes from each that eluded us at first. In a very real sense, they are both equally spontaneous and unfettered, both the result of basically having only one stab at it.
Remember the River is more haunting and mournful for several reasons, and instrumentation (lack of drums, addition of woodwinds) really is a huge part of it ... instrumentation can largely drive not only the vibe of the music, but the very selection of the repertoire. Sometimes, who knows which comes first?
Think of tunes like Revolver or WWJTD with drums added ... they would definitely feel more upbeat and akin to the vibe of much of Dreamhouse. Likewise, imagine the title track Dreamhouse with only piano, bass, and English horn ... it would immediately be more haunting and mournful.
Another significant reason, also a direct result of the instrumentation, is that the addition of woodwinds imbues the melodies with a human vocal quality ... the all important breath ... which in turn enhances the narrative line and deepens the emotional connection.
Further, my musical voice is inherently mournful, even on the upbeat tunes ... bittersweet is its predominant flavor. I feel closest to, and most moved by, music that fills me with a joyful sadness, whether I'm the composer or not. To move someone deeply with my own music, including myself, is my highest aspiration.
Finally, there is one more important distinction between the two albums: Dreamhouse was recorded in 1999, Remember the River was recorded in 2004 ... the world had changed dramatically, mostly for the sadder, and the feeling couldn't be escaped. For me the music was cathartic.
All the best,
Fred
.
quote:Originally posted by Rasher:
Fred, you worry me when you go quiet. I hope you're not upset about us discussing your music like this.
No, not at all. To be honest, it's flattering. It's just that a thoughtful response takes time, and occasionally I just need to get away from the computer.
Anyway, in my view there are a few significant differences between the two albums. The genesis of Dreamhouse was that Sarah and I were playing a weekly gig in a tavern, with a rotating cast of bass playing friends. One day, Ken Christianson came in to hear us. I knew Ken over the years, but we had never worked together. After the set he asked if I wanted to record the trio for Naim, and I readily agreed. The bassist on the gig that night was an old friend, the wonderful Bill Harrison, but as one of the most in demand bassists in Chicago, he was unable to make his schedule fit the recording dates Ken needed to book. So we called Kelly Sill, another old friend (with whom I go back more than 35 years, and who was also the first bassist in the Simon & Bard Group).
Dreamhouse is basically my take on a traditional blowing date, a spontaneously organized ensemble with minimal rehearsal and certain similarities to a live gig. There's a looser, more unworried sense of arrangement, and for each of us the task, and the fun, is to let go and enjoy the ride. In terms of musical language, we are all speaking the same language but with different dialects. Although I didn't feel any nervousness or extramusical tension while recording, nor do I hear it when listening, I would think that your perception of the music is colored by the above factors.
Remember the River came about after an invitation from Naim to record another album. I knew I wanted bassist Steve Rodby and I met with him to hash out some ideas. His suggestion was to do it without drums so that our individual and collective dynamic range could be much wider and more expressive. It occurred to me to do it as a trio with Rodby and McCandless ... Steve, Paul, and Ken, were all very much into the project.
Again there was minimal rehearsal, but built on a much deeper musical foundation and a closely shared dialect. In various combinations, the three of us had made many albums together ... in that sense, ours was a long-standing trio. Still, the task was that in addition to a more intense focus on the finer details of the compositions and their performance, we each again had to let go and enjoy the ride. Ultimately, Remember the River is much more personal, and more satisfying, for me as a complete representation of my fully realized musical voice.
Each album consists of pretty much the same ratio of composition to improvisation ... in most (but not all) tunes: more of the former, less of the latter. Each record features a mix of new tunes, older tunes, and very old tunes. Both albums were recorded in less than two days each, with many first and second takes on each. In fact, we didn't need to do a lot of takes of anything on either album except maybe one or two tunes from each that eluded us at first. In a very real sense, they are both equally spontaneous and unfettered, both the result of basically having only one stab at it.
Remember the River is more haunting and mournful for several reasons, and instrumentation (lack of drums, addition of woodwinds) really is a huge part of it ... instrumentation can largely drive not only the vibe of the music, but the very selection of the repertoire. Sometimes, who knows which comes first?
Think of tunes like Revolver or WWJTD with drums added ... they would definitely feel more upbeat and akin to the vibe of much of Dreamhouse. Likewise, imagine the title track Dreamhouse with only piano, bass, and English horn ... it would immediately be more haunting and mournful.
Another significant reason, also a direct result of the instrumentation, is that the addition of woodwinds imbues the melodies with a human vocal quality ... the all important breath ... which in turn enhances the narrative line and deepens the emotional connection.
Further, my musical voice is inherently mournful, even on the upbeat tunes ... bittersweet is its predominant flavor. I feel closest to, and most moved by, music that fills me with a joyful sadness, whether I'm the composer or not. To move someone deeply with my own music, including myself, is my highest aspiration.
Finally, there is one more important distinction between the two albums: Dreamhouse was recorded in 1999, Remember the River was recorded in 2004 ... the world had changed dramatically, mostly for the sadder, and the feeling couldn't be escaped. For me the music was cathartic.
All the best,
Fred
.
What a fascinating insight Fred. Thanks.
Of course, these albums will now have yet another quality when I play them again, and that'll probably be tonight when I can relax with a large whisky. It makes such a difference to know a little background, but obviously there is so much more to it than that little scratch to the surface.
It's a shame you didn't have any gigs when I was in Chicago in May, but maybe you could post your dates on the forum in future. That UK tour is needed I think.
Isn't music fascinating, and so tightly bound together with human life!
Of course, these albums will now have yet another quality when I play them again, and that'll probably be tonight when I can relax with a large whisky. It makes such a difference to know a little background, but obviously there is so much more to it than that little scratch to the surface.
It's a shame you didn't have any gigs when I was in Chicago in May, but maybe you could post your dates on the forum in future. That UK tour is needed I think.
Isn't music fascinating, and so tightly bound together with human life!